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Is Jesus real?

simonpeter

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Hi,

I don't mean to offend anybody, but I am just wondering whether anyone can answer this. Since crucifixion and resurrection are extraordinary events, how come there are no accounts of them except in the Gospels? Isn't that a little odd? Great events, great men and their lives are chronicled in many places, but this is not so in the case of Jesus.

Doesn't this raise questions on his divinity (and even the historical basis for that)?

Simon
 

ebia

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Hi,

I don't mean to offend anybody, but I am just wondering whether anyone can answer this. Since crucifixion and resurrection are extraordinary events, how come there are no accounts of them except in the Gospels?
Crucifixion is not that extraordinary event - lots of people were crucified and in the vast majority of cases nobody chronicled it at all - simply have no idea who, when,...

Resurrection is a world-turning event, but if you believed it and were willing to accept its significance you'd be part of the Christian community that produced all those accounts (not just the gospels but the epistles, the source documents of the gospels, the didache, etc, etc...)

If you denied that it happened, or knew it happened but lived with the congnitive disodance of denying its implications, you'd hardly write about it would you?

Isn't that a little odd? Great events, great men and their lives are chronicled in many places, but this is not so in the case of Jesus.
You seem to have a distorted idea about how much survived writing there is on most people in the first century - Jesus life, death and resurrection is better attested by close-to-contemporary sources than Tiberius Caesar, emperor of the known world at the time!
 
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trident343

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I am guessing as an agnostic your are taking an empiricist approach to proof of Jesus. This alone will neither prove nor disprove the existence of Jesus. There are plenty of people who have lived on this earth (to think of it, probably the majority) that have little of no historic documents showing they ever existed. Of course that does not mean they did not exist! On the other hand their might be people who never did exist who might have writings that suggest or state otherwise, some bad examples might be people Like King Arthur, or Robin Hood. Point being is that Historical documents on the person of Jesus should not be the final way to determine his existence nor the claims of who he was.

However, there are some non-gospel writings/documents which speak of Jesus. The writings of Josephus (a-non christian Jew) come to mind.

If Jesus was the Son of God, he would have had a way to prove it. Apart from the miracles he showed (healings, raising of people from the dead, turned water to wine etc)

I insist without hesitation that the whole Old Testament Law and Prophecies pointed to exactly him. Jesus quoted the prophecies repeatedly, mainly from Isaiah to point to himself as the messiah.

On a personal note: Reading the book of Isaiah of the Old testament to me is almost like reading the Gospels. To me it is so blatantly obvious, I do not have a single doubt in my mind about the person of Jesus.

"The virgin birth of Jesus prophecy"

Isaiah 7:14 (Prophecy of the virgin birth)

14Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isaiah 35 (Healing Miracles of Jesus)

1The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.
2It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.
3Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.
4Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
5Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.


Isaiah 50: (Jesus was silent in front of his accusers)


1Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.
2Wherefore, when I came, was there no man? when I called, was there none to answer? Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver? behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a wilderness: their fish stinketh, because there is no water, and dieth for thirst.
3I clothe the heavens with blackness, and I make sackcloth their covering.
4The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned.
5The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back.
6I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.


Isaiah 53 (Jesus sacrificed as a Sin offering for our Sins!)

1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Isaiah 55 (Free gift of salvation prophecy)
1Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

In the book of acts we read Phillip asks an ethiopian eunuch who was reading This same book of Isaiah that jesus was the one who fulfilled these prophecies.


26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Prophecies in the book of Zechariah about Jesus' betrayal

Zechariah 11:10

10And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. 11And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
12And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.


I might be assuming alot about your knowledge of Christianity Scripture. But I urge you to research the prophecies fulfilled by jesus.
 
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beforHim

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Offend? Don't worry.

This is the apologetics forum. Anyone here who gets offended by these questions should really not be here. I mean, we're sad that you don't know Jesus, yet we're hopefull that you'll see him. But offended by honest, open minded questions not intended to be blasphemy or be "troll" like? No way.



Ebia made some good points. I'll add that I was listening to a Christian vs Atheist debate (William Lane Craig vs Robert Price)- someone from the audience asked you exact question, that is "Ressurection is a BIG deal, why do we not have more documentation?" Craig said in a very enthusiastic tone, "Actually, it's suprising the amount of documentation we DO have! We actually have so much it's incredible!" and more like this. I was thinking "Yeah, typical apologist response. Let's see how Price is gonna tear his answer to shreds." Robert's answer:

"Craig's right. It's suprising the amount of evidence and documentation we have." Needless to say I was stunned. I've heard many similar things come from Christian and atheist historical scholars alike. So contrary to poular belief, we must really have the incredible documentation we Christians always claim to have. It's pretty cool like that. :)
 
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jonathan180iq

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Hi,

I don't mean to offend anybody, but I am just wondering whether anyone can answer this. Since crucifixion and resurrection are extraordinary events, how come there are no accounts of them except in the Gospels? Isn't that a little odd? Great events, great men and their lives are chronicled in many places, but this is not so in the case of Jesus.

Doesn't this raise questions on his divinity (and even the historical basis for that)?

Simon

The idea that crucifixions were not common is incorrect. They even experiemented with different ways of doing it. They had different types of "crosses" and these rope hanging contraptions to stretch you while you hung. Look up some history on Roman public death devices...

Also, there is plenty of evidence for Jesus' life, regardless of whether or not you believe that he was the Messiah.

Outside of the religious Christian texts:
Josephus has already been mentioned
Cornelius Tacitus (55-120AD)
Thallus (Historian ~52AD) Julius Africanus responded in the 200s.
Pliny the Younger (112 AD)
Mara Bar-Serapion of Syria (Before 200AD)

The Jewish Talmud mentions Jesus' crucifixion (Yeshua)
The Koran makes more references to Jesus than to Mohammed
Many Eastern religions claim that a man came to them, after the period of the Bible, named "Yuz Asaf" and they claim today that this was Jesus. (Heretical as they claim it was in human form and that he even has a tomb there, which denies the resurrection)

The point is that the historical evidence for Jesus is pretty rock solid. All three major religions acknowledge his existence, even though some deny his divinity. Pagans acknowledge the foundations of Christianity as being rooted in the life of Jesus. There are many others. I suggest you just look some of these up and decide for yourself. But I'd wager that the number of people who claim that Jesus never even existed is incredibly minute. I mean, I personally know of several straight up Atheist professor who cannot deny the life of Jesus. Again, they simply deny his divinity.
 
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bling

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Even the skeptic realizes something spectacular went on in Jerusalem at this time since Christianity started at that time in Jerusalem. No one denies Christianity could not have started before that time and there are lots of records of lots of people being Christian in the Roman Empire. You will never “proof” Christ or God through scientific information since that would eliminate the need for faith in them. Faith is needed to help us fulfill our objective.
 
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drich0150

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Hi,

I don't mean to offend anybody, but I am just wondering whether anyone can answer this. Since crucifixion and resurrection are extraordinary events, how come there are no accounts of them except in the Gospels? Isn't that a little odd? Great events, great men and their lives are chronicled in many places, but this is not so in the case of Jesus.

Doesn't this raise questions on his divinity (and even the historical basis for that)?

Simon


Can you give an example of where the life and times of Jesus would be chronicled, and the academic community would not consider it a "Christian" text? Would the text you seek have to speak against what is known of Jesus, or could this text confirm what has been written?
 
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simonpeter

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Can you give an example of where the life and times of Jesus would be chronicled, and the academic community would not consider it a "Christian" text? Would the text you seek have to speak against what is known of Jesus, or could this text confirm what has been written?

Sorry, but I am not sure I understand your question.:confused: All I am saying is that other prominent figures are mentioned as part of history, whereas Jesus is described more as a character in a story than a historical figure. Alexander is mentioned in secular sources, whereas Jesus is mentioned only in the Bible which, incidentally, isn't a history book.
 
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drich0150

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There are many documents that indeed reference Jesus and even the deity of the Christ that are not included in the bible. My question to you before i reveal them is do they have to speak against what we know of Christ as per the bible, to be considered a "secular source." or can they confirm what is written, or will they then be considered more Christian propaganda, even if they are not apart of the bible?
 
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ebia

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Sorry, but I am not sure I understand your question.:confused: All I am saying is that other prominent figures are mentioned as part of history, whereas Jesus is described more as a character in a story than a historical figure.
That simply isn't true. The four gospels each share much the same characteristics as other biographies of their period.


Alexander is mentioned in secular sources,
The idea that there even is a secular/religous divide in the 1st century is a nonsense. You can't write off texts simply because they have an agenda when doing ancient history or you have no texts left from which to work.

whereas Jesus is mentioned only in the Bible which, incidentally, isn't a history book.
Remembering that the bible is later collection: Jesus gets four biographies about him, mentions in a whole heap of letters, and the odd passing mention in other texts. Bearing in mind that 1st century Palestine is somewhat of a backwater the fact that Jesus is better documented than the emperor of the world at the time of his death blows your whole idea away. Would you suggest Tiberius Caesar never existed because we don't have much about him? Real historians all acknowledge that we have a quite extraordinary amount of documentation about Jesus, even if they don't accept his resurrection as factual.
 
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jonathan180iq

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Alexander is mentioned in secular sources, whereas Jesus is mentioned only in the Bible which, incidentally, isn't a history book.

...Did you look up the references listed? They are citations to Jesus from people who were writing histories from a perspective outside that of the Judeo-Christian point of view... ie, they were secular sources.

Also, you can claim that the Bible is not a history book but all you want. But there is no denying that it is a book from history. Think of it like an encyclopedia, in which the older books were written centuries before the newer books. And the newer books were complied from physical letters written by physical people describing events that changed their lives.

Check out the Codex Sinaiticus: http://www.codexsinaiticus.com/en/manuscript.aspx

One of the oldest copies of the Bible in existence, each individual page of the Codex has been scanned for public viewing. Anyone with internet access can view something that only scholars once had access to. The website is in English but the manuscript is written in the original Greek. If you don't read Greek, English translations are available on some pages. This is an ancient copy of other ancient copies. The Bible did not originate in 325, but this is about as old of a physical copy as we have. (Also, see the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_sea_scrolls for evidence of the historical accuracy of the Old Testament) But, as mentioned before, the sources outside of the Bible that mention the same people and events and places as the Bible is pretty solid evidence that something happened in Jerusalem 2,000+ years ago that changed the world. And your idea that it was all just an invented story is not supported by the evidence. It's simply an emotional response in attempts to justify disbelief.
 
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Jesus is mentioned only in the Bible which, incidentally, isn't a history book.

Jesus is mentioned in several other places, not just the bible.


Also, there is plenty of evidence for Jesus' life, regardless of whether or not you believe that he was the Messiah.

Outside of the religious Christian texts:
Josephus has already been mentioned
Cornelius Tacitus (55-120AD)
Thallus (Historian ~52AD) Julius Africanus responded in the 200s.
Pliny the Younger (112 AD)
Mara Bar-Serapion of Syria (Before 200AD)

The Jewish Talmud mentions Jesus' crucifixion (Yeshua)
The Koran makes more references to Jesus than to Mohammed
Many Eastern religions claim that a man came to them, after the period of the Bible, named "Yuz Asaf" and they claim today that this was Jesus. (Heretical as they claim it was in human form and that he even has a tomb there, which denies the resurrection)

The point is that the historical evidence for Jesus is pretty rock solid. All three major religions acknowledge his existence, even though some deny his divinity. Pagans acknowledge the foundations of Christianity as being rooted in the life of Jesus. There are many others. I suggest you just look some of these up and decide for yourself. But I'd wager that the number of people who claim that Jesus never even existed is incredibly minute. I mean, I personally know of several straight up Atheist professor who cannot deny the life of Jesus. Again, they simply deny his divinity.
 
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Harry3142

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Why should the secular texts have mentioned Jesus? He was born, reared, died, and even resurrected in the country of Judea, where the only Gentiles were the roman legions and their commanders, as well as occasional visitors from other countries. Judea was a 'closed' society; if you weren't a Jew, you were not welcome there.

It was only through the missionary work of those fellow Jews who had been taught by Jesus, as well as their having witnessed the miraculous events which surrounded his life, that we Gentiles came to know that he had indeed lived, died, and lives again. And even then they had to argue the case for taking the gospel to the Gentiles before a council of their own fellow believers.
 
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Emmy

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Dear simonpeter. So very, very much has been written whether Yes, or whether No. May I ask you a question? Let us believe that Jesus is real, that we have a loving Heavenly Father who made us in His image. He ordained that our lives on Earth are long enough to learn to love, as God wants us to love, selflessly and unconditionally. Let us also believe that God is in Heaven and waiting for us, His adopted sons and daughters, to join Him for eternity. Let us also believe that we are as we are, selfish and wilfull, and believe we are like everything else on Earth, HERE today, and Gone tomorrow. Now comes my question, simonpeter: What what you, or anyone else of Mankind,do, or go about it, to let us (Mankind) know that you are our loving Creator, and want us back to be with Him. Can you, or any one else think of a better or more loving Plan than telling us in a Book, written by God-inspired men and women? God could be a mighty Magician and show us all, but would that make us love with heart, soul and mind? Or God could make us puppets, but we would be without any feelings of SELFLESS LOVE. If you, or anyone else, can think of a way, to change selfish Humanity into loving and forgiving children/sons and daughters of our Heavenly Father, without a PROPHESIED Saviour, ( Jesus Christ) please let us know. Jesus is real, and without Jesus we would be as anything else in this Universe, here today and gone tomorrow. I say this humbly and gratefully. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.
 
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