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Is Jesus Gods first creation ?

EastCoastRemnant

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To me, it's the difference between God revealed through His creation vs God being in His creation.... even at that, it doesn't translate well as I don't believe Jesus/Yeshuah/Michael was "created" but did come from God the Father at a time before creation began.
 
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BobRyan

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Was Jesus Gods first creation?

Jesus is God the Son - the second person of the Godhead - One God in Three Persons. He is from eternity past.

In him is "Life - unborrowed - underived"
 
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overcomer

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Jesus is God the Son - the second person of the Godhead - One God in Three Persons. He is from eternity past.

In him is "Life - unborrowed - underived"

Where does the bible say that (one God in three persons)?

I recall Jesus saying 'I and my Father are one', not 'I and my Father and the holy spirit are one'.

Paul wrote, 1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Trinitarians invent things which are not in the bible while ignoring what the bible plainly teaches.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Begotten, not created. The Father begat the Son. God gave life to His Son.

All things Christ received from God, but He took to give. So in the heavenly courts, in His ministry for all created beings: through the beloved Son, the Father's life flows out to all; through the Son it returns, in praise and joyous service, a tide of love, to the great Source of all.” {The Desire of Ages, p. 21}
 
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mmksparbud

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Trinitarians???--so what are you????--Bitarian??---The Holy Spirit was there from the beginning--

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


They were to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Christ’s name was to be their watchword, their badge of distinction, their bond of union, the authority for their course of action, and the source of their success. Nothing was to be recognized in His kingdom that did not bear His name and superscription. {AA 28.2}

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col_1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Jesus was never created, He always was and always was one with God. It is Jesus who created everything.

I think the OP refers to revelation 3:14

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

New International Version
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation
Berean Study Bible
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God's creation.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God's creation says:
International Standard Version
"To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation, says this:
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And to The Messenger of the assembly of the Laidiqians write: “Thus says The Eternal, The Trustworthy and True Witness, and The Source of The Creation of God:”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: The amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the source of God's creation, says:
World English Bible
"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things:

Young's Literal Translation
'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief of the creation of God;
 
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overcomer

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Trinitarians???--so what are you????--Bitarian??---The Holy Spirit was there from the beginning--

234: The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. It is the mystery of God in himself. It is therefore the source of all the other mysteries of faith, the light that enlightens them. It is the most fundamental and essential teaching in the "hierarchy of the truths of faith".56 --- Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

This Mysticism of Trinity is the central doctrine of the Catholic church, the source of all her other mysticisms.

What am I? I just chose to believe in what the bible teaches plainly. Not an esoteric mystery of a trinity that the Jews of the OT didn't worship, the apostles didn't worship, the Adventists pioneers uniformly rejected.
 
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mmksparbud

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Yes, well, the thing about pioneers, is that they grow in knowledge and understanding. EGW was not a Sabbath keeper at first.
Why would she say we should baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? are you saying that is not biblical?
Mat_28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
 
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overcomer

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It's true the pioneers had to 'grow' in truth. However Ellen White never once in her writings used the word 'trinity' and she never corrected the pioneers of their position on the trinity. She instead in 1891 told brother Chapman to harmonize with the church body on the belief of holy spirit (the pioneers believed the holy spirit is the spirit of Christ, not the 3rd person of the trinity). The mystery of trinity didn't enter into the Adventist church until after Ellen White's death.

Ellen White called 'receiving the seal of the living God' as 'settling into the truth'. She wrote about sis Hastings who passed away had received the seal. How could this be the case if the pioneers had major errors in regarding to which God they worship?

About Matt 28:19, the bible tells us 'precepts upon precepts, lines upon lines...'. Not taking one verse to support a pre-conceived idea.

When you look at the actual baptismal accounts, all 6 of them in the book of Acts, every one of them invoked the name of Lord Jesus (not the trinity). To receive the spirit of Jesus, you should invoke Jesus' name.
 
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mmksparbud

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They were to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Christ’s name was to be their watchword, their badge of distinction, their bond of union, the authority for their course of action, and the source of their success. Nothing was to be recognized in His kingdom that did not bear His name and superscription. {AA 28.2}


Mat_28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


No one--absolutely no one---knows the whole and complete truth about God, the Son and the Holy Spirit, what they are made, how they are one God----there is one God--there is the Son, and the Holy Ghost and the Father-and that is what the apostles baptized in the name of.






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... of holy life, filled with varied gifts and endowed with the Holy Spirit ...

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... given the power of the Holy Spirit. Not by human might or ...

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... with the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit, would conquer in the battle ...

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... under the agency of the Holy Spirit. “When the Comforter is come ... from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from ...

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... . After the descent of the Holy Spirit, the disciples were so filled ... in the power of the Spirit; and under the influence of ...

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... Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Christ's name was to be ...

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... was to be theirs. The Holy Spirit was to be given them ... shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence ...

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... age the influence of the Holy Spirit had often been revealed in ... claimed the gift of the Spirit, that He might pour it ...


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... tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” The Holy Spirit, assuming the form ...

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... deficiency of the apostles. The Holy Spirit did for them that which ...



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... to the time when the Holy Spirit should come to do a ... the divine power of the Holy Spirit.

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The promise of the Holy Spirit is not limited to any ... as a personal Saviour, the Holy Spirit has come as a counselor ...

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... the molding influence of the Holy Spirit, they received of the fullness ...

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... parting promise to send the Holy Spirit as His representative. It is ... filled with the Spirit. Wherever the need of the Holy Spirit is a ...

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... more willing to give the Holy Spirit to those who serve Him ... measure of His Spirit. The presence of the Spirit with God's workers ...



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... Holy Spirit is. Christ tells us that the Spirit is the Comforter, “the Spirit ...

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The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot ...

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The office of the Holy Spirit is distinctly specified in the ... 16:8. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin. If ...

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... and thirsting for righteousness, the Holy Spirit reveals the Lamb of God ...

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... them the presence of His Spirit, with its reviving, sanctifying power ... the unseen agency of the Holy Spirit enables them to be “laborers ...





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... by the direction of the Holy Spirit.

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... the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, they would have been pardoned ...




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... with God, union with the Holy Spirit, union with Christ. Reproach and ...

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... the sanctifying influence of the Holy Spirit. As they make known the ...
 
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BobRyan

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Where does the bible say that (one God in three persons)?

I recall Jesus saying 'I and my Father are one', not 'I and my Father and the holy spirit are one'.

One God -- Matt 22 - "Hear O Israel - the Lord your God is ONE" - Deut 6:4

4 “Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

Matt 28 - "baptizing them in the NAME of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit".
 
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overcomer

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One God -- Matt 22 - "Hear O Israel - the Lord your God is ONE" - Deut 6:4
Matt 28 - "baptizing them in the NAME of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit".

Deut 6:4 has no mention of three persons, three gods whatsoever.

Matt 28 mentions the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But says nothing about their relationships whatsoever. No where in the bible it says 'God the spirit'.

Only someone with trinitarian glasses on will say these verses support the trinity (the three co-equal co-eternal persons) while ignoring what the bible plainly says about God, Christ and the holy spirit.

Exodus 20
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Deut 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him.

2 Sam 7:22 Wherefore thou art great, O Lord God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee,

Isa 45: 5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Not an exhaustive list above. But all talk about a singular God. No trinity, no triune God, no three gods.

Who did Jesus say we should worship? The trinity God that is made up of three equal persons?

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and intruth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Jesus told us to worship the Father. Apostle Paul told us who God is? The Father. No trinity here.

1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Jesus plainly says in John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

He's that comforter. Paul confirms this

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Philipians 1:9 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Still have not found a verse that calls 'God the spirit' and it is a distinct person from 'God and His only begotten Son".

The bible calls the Father God, Christ the only begotten Son. The spirit is the spirit of Christ. Not some separate/distinct person/entity. So easy a child can understand. Rather than this 1+1+1 = 1 unbiblical fable/mysticism that nobody understands.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Only someone with trinitarian glasses on will say these verses support the trinity.
Especially when weighed against the number that do not support the trinity but the instead, the Father/Son relationship.... it's very important we understand this truth as it relates directly to us in our relationships here on earth.... man/woman, Christ/church. Trinity would allow for Christ/church/tradition.
 
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Dave-W

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"LORD" is a term (esp in NT usage) reserved for God alone. And how many times do we see "Jesus is LORD" in the NT? A lot. How many times does the Holy Spirit convey the will of the Father and/or the Son? Again, a lot.

Remember - in the OT when it says that God is One - the word for one used is echad. (as opposed to yachad) Echad is also used to describe the unity of husband and wife "...they shall become one [echad] flesh..." So it is not descriptive of an absolute singularity.
 
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overcomer

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Yeah, just like when Jesus said "I and my Father are one".
 
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Dave-W

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Yeah, just like when Jesus said "I and my Father are one".
That is actually one of the proof texts of Modalists - that The Father is in reality Jesus. An absolute singularity.

Another way of saying "I am the Father."
 
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overcomer

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That is actually one of the proof texts of Modalists - that The Father is in reality Jesus. An absolute singularity.

Another way of saying "I am the Father."

So when the Father talks to the Son, that's Jesus talking to Himself?

Also when the bible says Jesus is the Son of God, He really is the Son of Himself?
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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So when the Father talks to the Son, that's Jesus talking to Himself?

Also when the bible says Jesus is the Son of God, He really is the Son of Himself?
It's amazing how people can look at a pretzel and call it a ruler....
 
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