Is Jesus Christ present in the world?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The Scripture was quite clear about the nature of His return 2000+ years ago, to the Masters of the Scripture then as well......Which is why they rejected Him when he came. To believe that we know more about scripture than the ones who dedicate their whole lives to it's study and therefore are less likely to dismiss Christ, is a claim that I would not make....

The thing about the second coming of Christ is, that none of us will be present in the world when He comes. The Scripture in Thessalonians says that the dead in Christ shall rise first and meet up with Him, not in the world but where He is. Then those who are alive shall be caught up and meet Him in the air. After that there will be no genuinely converted Christians in the world at all. Then, Jesus will come, accompanied by the multitude of His saints (true believers).

Therefore it won't be a matter of whether people will accept Him or not when He comes, because those who love Him will be coming with Him. Those who are in the world to see Him coming will know beyond doubt that this is Jesus coming in glory and that they are guilty and lost. They will run and try to hide from Him. They will call on the rocks and mountains to fall on them to try and get away from Him. He will come as reigning King and the Bible says that the nations will be subject to Him.

When Jesus came the first time, justification was still by faith. Faith in the Messiah to come. After His death and resurrection it is faith in the Messiah who has come. But when Jesus comes again, it will no longer be faith, because we will see Him. Today, we live by faith and no by sight, but when we see Him, we will no longer need faith.

The religious leaders of Israel, the strict Bible scholars, believed in a Messiah who was going to come a reigning king, kick the Romans out, and restore sovereignty to Israel. That is why they could not accept Jesus as their Messiah. But the Scripture says that the common people heard Him gladly.

 

[Andrewn]

We don't need the physical presence of Jesus with us, because

Everyone agrees with you that, "The physical Jesus is at the right hand of the Father in heaven, interceding for us."

we have the Holy Spirit dwelling right inside of us. It is the Holy Spirit who is present in the world, in every genuine believer. He is representing Jesus. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are in such unity, that having the Holy Spirit in us is the same as having Jesus in us. This is the meaning of "Christ in us, the hope of glory".

Yes, they're in such unity that I think they're one and the same. The Apostle Paul referred to the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of Christ several times. I will not "go through the concordance and list verses."

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Everyone agrees with you that, "The physical Jesus is at the right hand of the Father in heaven, interceding for us."

True!


Yes, they're in such unity that I think they're one and the same. The Apostle Paul referred to the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of Christ several times. I will not "go through the concordance and list verses." [/QUOTE]
I was just being cheeky about going through the concordance. I remember in a church I once attended, the preacher used to prepare his sermon by going through the concordance, and I found his sermons a real mission to listen to, especially as he went for nearly an hour! I think they called it topical preaching.

 

[Andrewn]

I remember in a church I once attended, the preacher used to prepare his sermon by going through the concordance, and I found his sermons a real mission to listen to, especially as he went for nearly an hour! I think they called it topical preaching.

My favorite sermons are no longer than 25 minutes.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

My favorite sermons are no longer than 25 minutes.

Last Sunday the sermon was so boring that I was so glad I was in the non-snoring section of the church!

 

[Andrewn]

Last Sunday the sermon was so boring that I was so glad I was in the non-snoring section of the church!

Do you have a snoring section? You just gave me an idea.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Do you have a snoring section? You just gave me an idea.

Just for a laugh you could make two notices - "Snoring Section" and "Non-Snoring Section" and sneak in without being observed, and tape one on each side of the church and then sit back and enjoy the reaction! But don't blame me if you get excommunicated!!! Hahahahahahaha!

 

[tampasteve]

My favorite sermons are no longer than 25 minutes.

Indeed, I feel if one cannot make the point in that time or less then one has not prepared a concise sermon for the liturgy. Really digging into the material and exegesis should (IMO) be reserved for a topical Bible study or small groups. I feel more ministers should lead a weekly study that really gets into the material and theology of what we believe. Lutheran's are blessed with plenty of material with the Book of Concord and other documents to really study as deep as one cares.

 

[Andrewn]

Indeed, I feel if one cannot make the point in that time or less then one has not prepared a concise sermon for the liturgy. Really digging into the material and exegesis should (IMO) be reserved for a topical Bible study or small groups. I feel more ministers should lead a weekly study that really gets into the material and theology of what we believe.

Very true. It seems that Baptist and Pentecostal pastors are required in their job descriptions to talk for 50 minutes. In my experience, most neither "dig into the material and exegesis" nor "explain theology." They merely keep repeating simple (or profound) points that should be presented in half the time.

Lutheran's are blessed with plenty of material with the Book of Concord and other documents to really study as deep as one cares.

IMO, the best theology is Lutheran theology as explained by John Wesley. Do Lutherans have objections to Methodist theology?

 

[tampasteve]

IMO, the best theology is Lutheran theology as explained by John Wesley. Do Lutherans have objections to Methodist theology?

Hmm, I am honestly not sure. The ELCA is in full communion with the United Methodist Church, so there is that. I personally see the two traditions as brothers that see things differently, neither is really wrong, they just see things in a different way. So, I personally do not ascribe to Methodist theology, but I also have no issue with those that do.

 

[Tigger45]

Acts 20:9

Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Indeed, I feel if one cannot make the point in that time or less then one has not prepared a concise sermon for the liturgy. Really digging into the material and exegesis should (IMO) be reserved for a topical Bible study or small groups. I feel more ministers should lead a weekly study that really gets into the material and theology of what we believe. Lutheran's are blessed with plenty of material with the Book of Concord and other documents to really study as deep as one cares.

The Sunday morning sermon is designed to be applied to the widest cross-section of people who attend the worship service. Also, there are many reasons why people attend church, and it is not always because they love God's Word and enjoying hearing it.

I have viewed John MacArthur preaching in his Sunday morning services, and he takes around 30-40 minutes, and it seems too short to me. I have spent whole evenings viewing one sermon after another, especially when there has been a series of sermons on a topic.

There have been preachers in my church that they have preached for 40 minutes and I have wondered why they stopped so soon; and there are others where I was thankful they finished after 20 minutes before I fell off to sleep.

Yes, I have been in Pentecostal services where I thought that the preacher would have been great if he finished 30 minutes before he did. But then I have been in others where I felt disappointed when he did finish after 50 minutes.

It all depends on whether the preacher is preaching through the Holy Spirit, and whether those who are there hearing him are those who love the Word of God and hearing it as much as they can. For someone who comes to church just for social reasons, then a 20 minute sermon is too long for them.

 

[tampasteve]

The Sunday morning sermon is designed to be applied to the widest cross-section of people who attend the worship service. Also, there are many reasons why people attend church, and it is not always because they love God's Word and enjoying hearing it.

I have viewed John MacArthur preaching in his Sunday morning services, and he takes around 30-40 minutes, and it seems too short to me. I have spent whole evenings viewing one sermon after another, especially when there has been a series of sermons on a topic.

There have been preachers in my church that they have preached for 40 minutes and I have wondered why they stopped so soon; and there are others where I was thankful they finished after 20 minutes before I fell off to sleep.

Yes, I have been in Pentecostal services where I thought that the preacher would have been great if he finished 30 minutes before he did. But then I have been in others where I felt disappointed when he did finish after 50 minutes.

I will remind you that this is the Lutheran forum. As such we have a set liturgy we follow, the Divine Service or Mass. Having a sermon longer than 20 minutes would not be fitting in the liturgy. We come to have word and sacrament. The hearing of the Gospel forgives our sins, but so does the Eucharist. In general the service has both of these facets, and only having one (though common still - but increasingly less so) is not the full liturgy.

It all depends on whether the preacher is preaching through the Holy Spirit, and whether those who are there hearing him are those who love the Word of God and hearing it as much as they can. For someone who comes to church just for social reasons, then a 20 minute sermon is too long for them.

I stick by my opinion that a sermon needs to wrap up in 20 minutes, deeper dives can and should be in studies and groups separate from the Divine Service. For Lutherans, the Holy Spirit is present in the Gospel, the sermon, the Eucharist and the hymns, we do not limit the Holy Spirit to the sermon. It really is not about just coming to church for "social reasons", that is increasingly less and less common, especially in liturgical churches that are not designed to be more social and rely on a charismatic preacher that is likely relying on his charisma more than the Spirit anyways.

Friendly reminder that this is the Lutheran forum, so debate is not allowed for non-Lutherans.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I will remind you that this is the Lutheran forum. As such we have a set liturgy we follow, the Divine Service or Mass. Having a sermon longer than 20 minutes would not be fitting in the liturgy. We come to have word and sacrament. The hearing of the Gospel forgives our sins, but so does the Eucharist. In general the service has both of these facets, and only having one (though common still - but increasingly less so) is not the full liturgy.

I found it refreshing when I left my Pentecostal church and joined an Anglican one, that the sermon was 15 to 20 minutes and said everything that a longer sermon would say.

I stick by my opinion that a sermon needs to wrap up in 20 minutes, deeper dives can and should be in studies and groups separate from the Divine Service. For Lutherans, the Holy Spirit is present in the Gospel, the sermon, the Eucharist and the hymns, we do not limit the Holy Spirit to the sermon. It really is not about just coming to church for "social reasons", that is increasingly less and less common, especially in liturgical churches that are not designed to be more social and rely on a charismatic preacher that is likely relying on his charisma more than the Spirit anyways.

Friendly reminder that this is the Lutheran forum, so debate is not allowed for non-Lutherans.

I am not going to debate on this because I see nothing to debate about. I found that many longer Pentecostal sermons were made up of the preacher going through the concordance using one verse after another to support his main point. I was in one conference a couple of years ago, where a 'big-name' preacher was the keynote speaker. They had a 30 minute 'worship time', plus another 30 minutes where a guy got up and told everyone what a great guy the preacher was. Then the preacher preached for around 20 minutes (!!), and then another guy got up and spent another 30 minutes expanding on the topic the preacher just preached about! Then they had an altar call where people came forward for personal ministry, and the musicians were so loud that one couldn't hear the prayer requests! I was so glad to get back to my straightforward Presbyterian Sunday Service where you could almost set your clock on the different parts of the service!

Once, when I conducted an all-day teaching conference on a particular series of topics, I knew that people's concentration spans were limited, so we had 40 minutes of teaching time, then had a 5-10 minute break where people could relax, have a cup of coffee and have a bit of conversation with friends. Then we would have the next 40 minute session, then another break, and so on. I think that people got more out of the day, than if we had done longer sessions with just a lunch break in the middle.