Is Jesus' birthday on December 25?

[thelord's_pearl]

Hi all,
I'm wondering about this - there might (likely?) be something historical in getting to this info since everyone I know plus people on the internet say that Jesus' (real) birthday is on December 25! Thanks a lot!

 

[Aussie Pete]

Hi all,
I'm wondering about this - there might (likely?) be something historical in getting to this info since everyone I know plus people on the internet say that Jesus' (real) birthday is on December 25! Thanks a lot!

Almost certainly not. The more likely month was September. Shepherds did not tend flocks in the snow.

 

[ewq1938]

Was Jesus actually born in September? | GotQuestions.org

"the theory that Jesus was born in September depends on the timing of John the Baptist’s birth. These biblical facts lay the groundwork: John’s father, a priest named Zechariah, was taking his turn to serve in the temple when the angel Gabriel appeared to him and announced that Elizabeth, Zechariah’s wife, would conceive a son (Luke 1:8–13). After Zechariah returned home, his wife conceived, just as the angel had said (Luke 1:23–24). Gabriel then visited Mary to announce the miraculous conception of Jesus, and this visit came in the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy (Luke 1:26, 36). Another important detail: Zechariah “belonged to the priestly division of Abijah” (Luke 1:5).

Using the above information, the calculations are made thus: the priests in the Abijah division served from June 13—19. Assuming that Elizabeth conceived shortly after Gabriel’s announcement to Zechariah, her sixth month—the month that Gabriel visits Mary—would be December or January. Assuming that Mary conceives shortly after Gabriel’s announcement to her, Jesus would have been born nine months later, i.e., August or September."

 

[Albion]

No one knows...but there is another thread running right now about the same subject.

You might want to take a look at it. Almost everything that can be said about this topic has probably been posted there already.

 

[Jacob Sabin]

Realistically probably not. The fact the shepherds were out in the field with their sheep is not something they would have done at night in the winter. There are a couple of different theories (well, more than a couple but I digress) about why December 25th was chosen. At any rate, even if Jesus wasn't born on December 25th, it is certainly not wrong to celebrate it on said date.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

No one knows...but there is another thread running right now about the same subject.

You might want to take a look at it. Almost everything that can be said about this topic has probably been posted there already.

Which thread? thanks a lot!

 

[Albion]

Which thread? thanks a lot!

Hi.

See Christmas is of God or Pagan? Should it be Celebrated or Rejected?

on the General Theology forum.

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Hi.

See Christmas is of God or Pagan? Should it be Celebrated or Rejected?

on the General Theology forum.

that's not as accurate as my title but I'll see if I'll take a look at it, thanks

 

[Albion]

that's not as accurate as my title but I'll see if I'll take a look at it, thanks

Yes. I almost added "Don't be misled by the title."

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Yes. I almost added "Don't be misled by the title."

Oh, ok thanks again

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Wow, so long responses in that thread. I just want to know the historical evidence in answer to my 1 question so I'll just see if I get more responses in this thread

 

[thelord's_pearl]

Was Jesus actually born in September? | GotQuestions.org

"the theory that Jesus was born in September depends on the timing of John the Baptist’s birth. These biblical facts lay the groundwork: John’s father, a priest named Zechariah, was taking his turn to serve in the temple when the angel Gabriel appeared to him and announced that Elizabeth, Zechariah’s wife, would conceive a son (Luke 1:8–13). After Zechariah returned home, his wife conceived, just as the angel had said (Luke 1:23–24). Gabriel then visited Mary to announce the miraculous conception of Jesus, and this visit came in the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy (Luke 1:26, 36). Another important detail: Zechariah “belonged to the priestly division of Abijah” (Luke 1:5).

Using the above information, the calculations are made thus: the priests in the Abijah division served from June 13—19. Assuming that Elizabeth conceived shortly after Gabriel’s announcement to Zechariah, her sixth month—the month that Gabriel visits Mary—would be December or January. Assuming that Mary conceives shortly after Gabriel’s announcement to her, Jesus would have been born nine months later, i.e., August or September."

If Jesus' real birthday could've been in August or September then why does everyone I know say His birthday is on December 25?

 

[ewq1938]

If Jesus' real birthday could've been in August or September then why does everyone I know say His birthday is on December 25?

The people you know just don't know the actual birthdate. It's been misrepresented as 12-25 for centuries.

 

[prodromos]

If Jesus' real birthday could've been in August or September then why does everyone I know say His birthday is on December 25?

The Church celebrates all the major events in thr Gospels throughout the year, not just Christmas and Easter. Every day of the year is sanctified in the Church.

 

[mindlight]

Hi all,
I'm wondering about this - there might (likely?) be something historical in getting to this info since everyone I know plus people on the internet say that Jesus' (real) birthday is on December 25! Thanks a lot!

No most likely this is one of those occasions where Christians displaced a previous paganism (probably Mithraism in this case). But it was a sensible choice for the church calendar as that baby born in Bethlehem does represent the entry of light and hope into the world at its darkest hour and at the darkest time of the year, on the turn to the Light.

 

[Albion]

The people you know just don't know the actual birthdate. It's been misrepresented as 12-25 for centuries.

That, or else they are intending to say that December 25 is the day on which the Nativity is commemorated.

But in either case, the issue isn't decided on the basis of "some people say...."

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hi all,
I'm wondering about this - there might (likely?) be something historical in getting to this info since everyone I know plus people on the internet say that Jesus' (real) birthday is on December 25! Thanks a lot!

In the ancient Church a lot of discussion was had on what calendar day Jesus died, and when He was born. There were a variety of opinions, but one of the most prevalent was that in the year Christ died, Nissan 14th occurred on March 25th (the Jewish calendar and the Roman calendar differed year to year, because the Romans used a solar calendar and the Jews a lunar calendar). Many then taking this March 25th as the day of His passion, proposed that since the Lord was perfect, that He had a perfectly round life, thus that He was conceived on the same day that He suffered. Thus if He was conceived on March 25th, then it's a simple adding of nine months to find His day of birth, which would be December 25th. A fourth century treatise on the conception and births of Jesus and John the Baptist mention that Jesus suffered on the same day He was conceived, the kalends of April (which is March 25th). St. Augustine in Book IV, ch. 5 of On the Trinity likewise states the same, and that is why the tradition of His birth on December 25th exists.

And in spite of what some have tried arguing, that Jesus couldn't have been born in the winter, that's just not true.

For one, we can look at the fact that the Gospel of Luke tells us that John the Baptist's father, Zachariah was of the priestly division or course of Abijah; and one of the times in which that priestly course would have been serving in the Temple is in the autumn, October-November. This wasn't the only time of course, as the priestly courses served multiple times a year, twice in rotation, and all serving on each of the High Holy Days. But assuming it was October-November when the angel visited Zachariah, we can count six months, which is when we get the meeting between Mary and Elizabeth. Six months later would have been March or April. And thus, again, nine months later we get December.

It is worth noting that one of the other common days associated with Christ's Nativity was January 6th, which is still in keeping with the above. January 6th is the Feast of the Epiphany (also called Theophany), and for many in the early Church the entire Nativity celebration took place during Epiphany, which is why even today in the Armenian Church January 6th is Christmas. Elsewhere the Nativity and the Epiphany became distinct, but closely associated celebrations. Where in much of the East Epiphany is primarily the celebration of Christ's baptism, in the West the most common aspect of Epiphany is the visitation of the magi, which is why January 6th--Epiphany--is also sometimes called Three Kings Day in the English speaking world (though we have no idea exactly how many magi actually came and visited the Child Jesus, and also that they weren't actually kings).

Was Jesus actually born on a December 25th? It's really impossible to say. But it's not impossible as some would argue; at the same time it's simply not that important. The Feast of the Holy Nativity of our Lord isn't about celebrating Jesus "birthday", i.e. celebrating the anniversary of His calendar birth date; it's about celebrating Jesus' birth--the event itself. It is a liturgical feast, it forms part of the Christian liturgical year, which has its own rhythms and patterns, where every year we as the Christian Church go through the entire Gospel Story. From the hopeful anticipation of Advent, to Christ's birth in Christmas, to His manifestation as King and Christ in Epiphany/Theophany, to His testing and fasting in the wilderness during Lent, to His triumphant entry on Palm Sunday, His Last Supper and betrayal on Maundy Thursday, His passion and death on Good Friday, His glorious resurrection on Easter/Pascha, His ascension on Ascension Sunday, the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, the counting of days during Ordinary Time, and finally we return with hopeful anticipation in Advent.

The year keeps us saturated in the Gospel, it places Christ first and at center in our week-to-week, season-to-season life and worship as His people.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ralliann]

Was Jesus actually born in September? | GotQuestions.org

"the theory that Jesus was born in September depends on the timing of John the Baptist’s birth. These biblical facts lay the groundwork: John’s father, a priest named Zechariah, was taking his turn to serve in the temple when the angel Gabriel appeared to him and announced that Elizabeth, Zechariah’s wife, would conceive a son (Luke 1:8–13). After Zechariah returned home, his wife conceived, just as the angel had said (Luke 1:23–24). Gabriel then visited Mary to announce the miraculous conception of Jesus, and this visit came in the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy (Luke 1:26, 36). Another important detail: Zechariah “belonged to the priestly division of Abijah” (Luke 1:5).

Using the above information, the calculations are made thus: the priests in the Abijah division served from June 13—19. Assuming that Elizabeth conceived shortly after Gabriel’s announcement to Zechariah, her sixth month—the month that Gabriel visits Mary—would be December or January. Assuming that Mary conceives shortly after Gabriel’s announcement to her, Jesus would have been born nine months later, i.e., August or September."

How do we know when the course of abijah was?
The courses did not serve the same week every year, because there were not enough courses to fill out the year. each course having served two times a year, rotated. Especially on a leap year when an extra month was added to reconcile the calender the courses were not enough to complete the year without a leap year. On a leap year the courses fell even shorter of filling out the year.

 

[AFrazier]

Let me throw my hat in the ring on this.

I can tell you that December 25th was the codified day of celebration for Christ's birth by at least 354 CE, seeing as how the Chronographer of 354 listed it as such. There are other minor discussions on the subject in the Ante-Nicean fathers' works. But that's the first "set in stone" example of that date being outright recognized as the day.

From a scriptural and historical point of view, I have to agree with someone else who noted that the courses of the priests rotated. There is a lot of confusion in existing works as to the rotation of the courses. Some think they restart on Nisan 1, while others think a variety of other things.

The courses continue in a steady rotation. A course comes on duty on the sabbath at noon and serves a full week until noon on the following sabbath. The twenty-four courses move in steady rotation from one week to the next. The rotation is not paused or reset at the beginning of the year.

This is very simply proven by the fact that the course of Jehoiarib was on duty on the 10th of Ab, when the temple was burned in 70 CE. According to the Talmud, the same was the case when the temple was previously burned.

From the start of the course of Jehoiarib, 168 days have to pass before Jehoiarib serves again (24 full courses of one week each). Ab is only the fifth month of the Jewish year. Even if the preceding four months were all 30 days each leading up to Ab, plus the ten days of Ab itself before Jehoiarib came on duty, that’s only 130 days. Counting back, that would put Malchijah or Mijamin on duty during the first week of the year.

Additionally, there are the Dead Sea Scrolls, which have lists showing a continual rotation, with different courses on duty during different festivals from the very natural shift.

During the relevant year of Christ's probable conception, Abijah was on duty Jan. 7th - 15th, June 24th - 30th, and Dec 9th - 15th. These dates are back-counted relative to the course of Jehoiarib being on duty on the 10th of Ab in 70 CE.

According to Luke, Mary was visited by Gabriel in the sixth month. While it is automatically assumed that this means Elizabeth's sixth month specifically and exclusively, I do believe there is a double meaning in the statement. In the sixth month, the angel was sent to Mary. That sixth month was also Elizabeth's sixth month. In which case, Elizabeth conceived in Nisan, while Mary was visited in Elul, the sixth month of the year, and the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy.

Allowing for forty weeks of gestation, etc., that would put Christ's birth in the vicinity of June (technically late May to early July).

Some will disagree with the sixth month argument, but that's how I see it. And I do think that many other events line up appropriately under those circumstances. Most especially the baptism. The idea that John was baptizing in cold weather is absurd. He would have suffered hypothermia. The Jordan is cold during the fall and winter.

 

[ralliann]

Let me throw my hat in the ring on this.

I can tell you that December 25th was the codified day of celebration for Christ's birth by at least 354 CE, seeing as how the Chronographer of 354 listed it as such. There are other minor discussions on the subject in the Ante-Nicean fathers' works. But that's the first "set in stone" example of that date being outright recognized as the day.

From a scriptural and historical point of view, I have to agree with someone else who noted that the courses of the priests rotated. There is a lot of confusion in existing works as to the rotation of the courses. Some think they restart on Nisan 1, while others think a variety of other things.

The courses continue in a steady rotation. A course comes on duty on the sabbath at noon and serves a full week until noon on the following sabbath. The twenty-four courses move in steady rotation from one week to the next. The rotation is not paused or reset at the beginning of the year.

This is very simply proven by the fact that the course of Jehoiarib was on duty on the 10th of Ab, when the temple was burned in 70 CE. According to the Talmud, the same was the case when the temple was previously burned.

From the start of the course of Jehoiarib, 168 days have to pass before Jehoiarib serves again (24 full courses of one week each). Ab is only the fifth month of the Jewish year. Even if the preceding four months were all 30 days each leading up to Ab, plus the ten days of Ab itself before Jehoiarib came on duty, that’s only 130 days. Counting back, that would put Malchijah or Mijamin on duty during the first week of the year.

Additionally, there are the Dead Sea Scrolls, which have lists showing a continual rotation, with different courses on duty during different festivals from the very natural shift.

During the relevant year of Christ's probable conception, Abijah was on duty Jan. 7th - 15th, June 24th - 30th, and Dec 9th - 15th. These dates are back-counted relative to the course of Jehoiarib being on duty on the 10th of Ab in 70 CE.

According to Luke, Mary was visited by Gabriel in the sixth month. While it is automatically assumed that this means Elizabeth's sixth month specifically and exclusively, I do believe there is a double meaning in the statement. In the sixth month, the angel was sent to Mary. That sixth month was also Elizabeth's sixth month. In which case, Elizabeth conceived in Nisan, while Mary was visited in Elul, the sixth month of the year, and the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy.

Allowing for forty weeks of gestation, etc., that would put Christ's birth in the vicinity of June (technically late May to early July).

Some will disagree with the sixth month argument, but that's how I see it. And I do think that many other events line up appropriately under those circumstances. Most especially the baptism. The idea that John was baptizing in cold weather is absurd. He would have suffered hypothermia. The Jordan is cold during the fall and winter.

Informative post. But I do disagree concerning the whether. Israel is a land of palm trees and citrus fruits. I looked up the average temperature by months. I thought I had recalled that someone said the average temperature ran from mid 50's to low 60's.

Weather history for Tel Aviv, Israel
Average temperature
December
68 / 51
°F

C
Record temps
87° / 35° F
Avg rainfall
4.03 in
Snow
0 days
5060708090
JanFebMarAprMayJunJulAugSepOctNovDec
Temperature
Rain

Weather history for Orlando, Florida
Average temperature
December
73 / 52
°F

C
Record temps
88° / 27° F
Avg rainfall
2.32 in
Snow
0 days
5060708090
JanFebMarAprMayJunJulAugSepOctNovDec
Temperature
Rain

Israel like florida produces Oranges, Lemons, grapefruit etc. We wouldn't think it awful to be dunked in water in daytime hours in Florida, why Israel?