Many in the sacred name movement, and even some in the messianic movement have stated that Jesus is a pagan name, and is not valid. Does the name Jesus have a real etymological origin? Many have also stated that the name God is of pagan origin as well. Any opinions?
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Is Jesus a "pagan" name?
- Thread starter Higher Truth
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simchat_torah
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I have a friend who has his Doctorates in Greek. He has his masters in Divinity and a doctorates in Greek. He is not messianic, just a christian. He was the first to point out to me some of the origins of the Greek name. I will get to that later though, possibly posting some of the notes I wrote down when I studied with him. However, I'm really not wanting to get into this subject too deeply right now.
I also have another friend that goes to Princeton and studies under Dr. Charlesworth. He too has a number of insights into the greek name (which is what we base our English transliteration off of).
I'll see if I can get him to come and make a few posts at our humble forum. He is truly a brilliant person. Actually, he was the best man at my wedding and I was his.
Shalom,
Yafet.
I also have another friend that goes to Princeton and studies under Dr. Charlesworth. He too has a number of insights into the greek name (which is what we base our English transliteration off of).
I'll see if I can get him to come and make a few posts at our humble forum. He is truly a brilliant person. Actually, he was the best man at my wedding and I was his.
Shalom,
Yafet.
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simchat_torah
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I will make note that the idea of the name "j e s u s" coming from pagan origins does not originate with the Sacred Namers. While they have lept onto that with a vengence, it is not originally a Sacred Name idea.
I personally have little to no respect for the Sacred Name movement. Its very gross in what it has done and created. But that's another discussion all together.
I personally have little to no respect for the Sacred Name movement. Its very gross in what it has done and created. But that's another discussion all together.
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Higher Truth,
Heresy often starts when a symbol becomes as important as what it symbolizes. Though symbols are meaningful and helpful in our spiritual growth, we must be careful not to worship the symbol itself. That is truth about anything, such as the Lord's supper (some churches believe it is only valid if we use red wine and bread - but what about an indian tribe in Amazon, where are they going to get wine or wheat?), baptism (many churches believe only immersion is valid - if you've been sprinkled than you're not baptized), and even our L-RD's name.
Just as Yeshua illustrated how the altar is more important than the offerings on it, we must be careful not to focus on the wrong things. I love the name "Yeshua" because it is original and meaningful (it means salvation... the name Jesus means nothing), but do you rely on a bunch of letters put together for salvation or do you rely on the L-RD G-D manifested in flesh? Sacred-Name theology is heresy to say the very least. If you named a garden fairy 'Yeshua' and relied on it for salvation, would you be saved? It simply doesn't make any sense!
As for the origin of the name, Jesus derives from the Greek IESOUS... it is not pagan. The apostles probably used that name when preaching to many gentiles in the Roman world (Greek was the lingua franca much like English is nowadays). I prefer to use the name 'Yeshua' because it is far more meaningful (plus I wouldn't like to have my name translated), but I cannot condemn anyone for calling our lord and savior Jesus.
In Messiah,
Ben Tsion
Heresy often starts when a symbol becomes as important as what it symbolizes. Though symbols are meaningful and helpful in our spiritual growth, we must be careful not to worship the symbol itself. That is truth about anything, such as the Lord's supper (some churches believe it is only valid if we use red wine and bread - but what about an indian tribe in Amazon, where are they going to get wine or wheat?), baptism (many churches believe only immersion is valid - if you've been sprinkled than you're not baptized), and even our L-RD's name.
Just as Yeshua illustrated how the altar is more important than the offerings on it, we must be careful not to focus on the wrong things. I love the name "Yeshua" because it is original and meaningful (it means salvation... the name Jesus means nothing), but do you rely on a bunch of letters put together for salvation or do you rely on the L-RD G-D manifested in flesh? Sacred-Name theology is heresy to say the very least. If you named a garden fairy 'Yeshua' and relied on it for salvation, would you be saved? It simply doesn't make any sense!
As for the origin of the name, Jesus derives from the Greek IESOUS... it is not pagan. The apostles probably used that name when preaching to many gentiles in the Roman world (Greek was the lingua franca much like English is nowadays). I prefer to use the name 'Yeshua' because it is far more meaningful (plus I wouldn't like to have my name translated), but I cannot condemn anyone for calling our lord and savior Jesus.
In Messiah,
Ben Tsion
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simchat_torah
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No matter what name one uses, I doubt it affects salvation at all. This is one of the grevious errs that Sacred Namers enter into. That doesn't mean we should take his name lightly. As well, it does not negate the truth of history, truth, etc.
But I would never base anyone's salvation upon any particular name.
But I would never base anyone's salvation upon any particular name.
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HT:
The "common" language of the Jews from Jesus day was Aramaic. The language of commerce was Greek. Many scholars say that Paul addressed his fellow Jews outside the temple in the book of Acts 22 in Aramaic. They also believe that Jesus addressed Paul on the road to Damascus in Acts 26 in Aramaic. The church of the East still holds a copy of the NT scriptures that is dated from the 5th century that is written in script Aramaic [Estrangelo]. It is a different dialect than Jesus would have spoken, and He would have most probably written in block [Asshuri] Aramaic which is what was found on the lid of the James ossurary.[bone box] In this book which is commonly known as The Peshitta, He would be known as Eesho M'sheekha" meaning "Jesus the Messiah".
Eesho [Eastern Aramaic]
Yeshua [Hebrew]
Iesou [Koine Greek]
It is quite easy to see how His Name went easily from the Aramaic/Hebrew to the Greek. Is their a real etymological proof of the transliteration scheme? Below is an explanation from a man who is well versed in Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek. This is one of the most scholarly explanations I have seen:
Yeshua (short form) or Yehoshua (long form)--Hebrew Joshua--comes across into Greek as Iesous. Greek has no consonant y, so it uses initial i (cf. Ioudaios for Yhudim), which comes out sounding like a y when it's pronounced together with a following vowel anyway. Greek also has no letter equivalent to Hebrew shin (/sh/), so the standard transliteration is sigma (/s/). The final a in the Hebrew forms is a glide-element that shows up in other Semitic languages but isn't really part of the word per se. The final vowel should be u, but because of the gutteral consonant 'ayin that comes at the end of the name, an a-vowel is added. So the final u-sound is paralleled by Greek ou (Greek upsilon would have a different sound--like French long-u or German u-umlaut). The s on the end is part of a standard conversion from other languages to Greek. Since Greek nouns almost always have case endings, including names, the s is added to give the name the right feel. We get the same rendering for Joshua in the Greek OT, so I don't see any reason that it would mean something different in the NT.
Trevor Peterson
CUA/Semitics
The "common" language of the Jews from Jesus day was Aramaic. The language of commerce was Greek. Many scholars say that Paul addressed his fellow Jews outside the temple in the book of Acts 22 in Aramaic. They also believe that Jesus addressed Paul on the road to Damascus in Acts 26 in Aramaic. The church of the East still holds a copy of the NT scriptures that is dated from the 5th century that is written in script Aramaic [Estrangelo]. It is a different dialect than Jesus would have spoken, and He would have most probably written in block [Asshuri] Aramaic which is what was found on the lid of the James ossurary.[bone box] In this book which is commonly known as The Peshitta, He would be known as Eesho M'sheekha" meaning "Jesus the Messiah".
Eesho [Eastern Aramaic]
Yeshua [Hebrew]
Iesou
It is quite easy to see how His Name went easily from the Aramaic/Hebrew to the Greek. Is their a real etymological proof of the transliteration scheme? Below is an explanation from a man who is well versed in Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek. This is one of the most scholarly explanations I have seen:
Yeshua (short form) or Yehoshua (long form)--Hebrew Joshua--comes across into Greek as Iesous. Greek has no consonant y, so it uses initial i (cf. Ioudaios for Yhudim), which comes out sounding like a y when it's pronounced together with a following vowel anyway. Greek also has no letter equivalent to Hebrew shin (/sh/), so the standard transliteration is sigma (/s/). The final a in the Hebrew forms is a glide-element that shows up in other Semitic languages but isn't really part of the word per se. The final vowel should be u, but because of the gutteral consonant 'ayin that comes at the end of the name, an a-vowel is added. So the final u-sound is paralleled by Greek ou (Greek upsilon would have a different sound--like French long-u or German u-umlaut). The s on the end is part of a standard conversion from other languages to Greek. Since Greek nouns almost always have case endings, including names, the s is added to give the name the right feel. We get the same rendering for Joshua in the Greek OT, so I don't see any reason that it would mean something different in the NT.
Trevor Peterson
CUA/Semitics
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simchat_torah
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Higher_Truth,
Thank you for sharing this information. I enjoyed it much actually. This topic is definatley not something I'm closed minded on.
The one thing that does concern me about the above article is that no real linguistic scholarship is shown from transliteration to transliteration. The author simply states:
While I tend to agree, I'd like to actually see what the transliterations are/were and how they made the steps to change it from language to language.
This is what my 2 friends have done who study Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic for a living. I'd actually like to see them post here presenting both sides of the argument rather than simply their opinion... so we could evaluate it for ourselves.
Shalom,
Yafet.
Thank you for sharing this information. I enjoyed it much actually. This topic is definatley not something I'm closed minded on.
The one thing that does concern me about the above article is that no real linguistic scholarship is shown from transliteration to transliteration. The author simply states:
While I tend to agree, I'd like to actually see what the transliterations are/were and how they made the steps to change it from language to language.
This is what my 2 friends have done who study Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic for a living. I'd actually like to see them post here presenting both sides of the argument rather than simply their opinion... so we could evaluate it for ourselves.
Shalom,
Yafet.
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Simchat,
It was I who stated this:
"It is quite easy to see how His Name went easily from Aramaic/Hebrew to the Greek."
Sorry if there was any confusion.
This is his explanation:
Yeshua (short form) or Yehoshua (long form)--Hebrew Joshua--comes across into Greek as Iesous. Greek has no consonant y, so it uses initial i (cf. Ioudaios for Yhudim), which comes out sounding like a y when it's pronounced together with a following vowel anyway. Greek also has no letter equivalent to Hebrew shin (/sh/), so the standard transliteration is sigma (/s/). The final a in the Hebrew forms is a glide-element that shows up in other Semitic languages but isn't really part of the word per se. The final vowel should be u, but because of the gutteral consonant 'ayin that comes at the end of the name, an a-vowel is added. So the final u-sound is paralleled by Greek ou (Greek upsilon would have a different sound--like French long-u or German u-umlaut). The s on the end is part of a standard conversion from other languages to Greek. Since Greek nouns almost always have case endings, including names, the s is added to give the name the right feel. We get the same rendering for Joshua in the Greek OT, so I don't see any reason that it would mean something different in the NT.
Trevor Peterson
CUA/Semitics
It was I who stated this:
"It is quite easy to see how His Name went easily from Aramaic/Hebrew to the Greek."
Sorry if there was any confusion.
This is his explanation:
Yeshua (short form) or Yehoshua (long form)--Hebrew Joshua--comes across into Greek as Iesous. Greek has no consonant y, so it uses initial i (cf. Ioudaios for Yhudim), which comes out sounding like a y when it's pronounced together with a following vowel anyway. Greek also has no letter equivalent to Hebrew shin (/sh/), so the standard transliteration is sigma (/s/). The final a in the Hebrew forms is a glide-element that shows up in other Semitic languages but isn't really part of the word per se. The final vowel should be u, but because of the gutteral consonant 'ayin that comes at the end of the name, an a-vowel is added. So the final u-sound is paralleled by Greek ou (Greek upsilon would have a different sound--like French long-u or German u-umlaut). The s on the end is part of a standard conversion from other languages to Greek. Since Greek nouns almost always have case endings, including names, the s is added to give the name the right feel. We get the same rendering for Joshua in the Greek OT, so I don't see any reason that it would mean something different in the NT.
Trevor Peterson
CUA/Semitics
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BT:
(it means salvation... the name Jesus means nothing)
HT:
When there is etymological proof of a name, it retains the same meaning as the original from which it was derived. If your statement was correct, then Jeremiah, John, Jonah, Jacob, Isaiah, etc. would have no meaning as well.
(it means salvation... the name Jesus means nothing)
HT:
When there is etymological proof of a name, it retains the same meaning as the original from which it was derived. If your statement was correct, then Jeremiah, John, Jonah, Jacob, Isaiah, etc. would have no meaning as well.
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The question is in any greek documents did that name exist prior? I had always thought that the greek culture was pagan.
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The Septuagint was a Greek copy of the five books of Moses hundreds of years before the time of Jesus.[the age is disputed by some] Historians state that this book was translated from Hebrew into Greek by 70 Hebrew scribes. In this book, they rendered Yehoshua [Joshua] as Iesous. This is how Jesus [Iesous] is written in the Greek NT writings. I personally view the Septuagint as a historical document only.
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simchat_torah
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My friend at Princeton essentially states (and this is common among Aramaic scholars as well) the grammatical error in translating the Semetic letter "a" (Yashu"a" [ayin]) to the letter "s" in the Greek, which is unprecendented in any other Hebrew/Aramaic name that ends in "a" (ayin). It should be translated with a "u" or the Greek Iesou rather than Iesous. This brings in the possibility of Roman Hellenistic influence and influx, and is often argued that it was done in order to reflect Zeus' name.... and in Greek would depict "Healing Zeus".
Other such scholars, such as the one that Higher_Truth pointed out, state that the Greek form of the name is "Iasous" with the "os" ending is used to make it declinable.
Obviously the Catholic ch-rch has done a lot to preserve the pagan heritage of its doctrine, but this particular thing is hard to swallow only because it is the 'name' of the messiah.
However, I haven't fully bought the arguments used by either side. I can probably argue just as well from either standpoint, which only confuses me even more. Yes, I can see how the transliteration from Aramaic/Hebrew into the Greek Iesous is rather vague, and most likely incorrect. However, it is another step yet to declare that it was done with malicious intent.
I have yet to cross the thresh-hold of either camp.
I do, however, see the value in preserving the name of Y'shua. Out of purity of tongue I have chosen to abstain from using "j e s u s" at this point in time because honestly I don't know which side correct.
-Exodus 23:13 "Do not speak the names of other g-ds; do not let them be heard upon your lips."
Because of this clear instruction, and because I honestly do not know I have chosen to not use the Greek rendition and English transliteration of that name. I have chosen to use a name I do know is pure and right.
I would never cast judgement upon others for using whatever name they want, and as I stated previously, I would never base anyone's salvation upon whatever name they have seen fit to call the Messiah (within reason
).
I'll try to bring some more notes in later.
Shalom,
Yafet.
Other such scholars, such as the one that Higher_Truth pointed out, state that the Greek form of the name is "Iasous" with the "os" ending is used to make it declinable.
Obviously the Catholic ch-rch has done a lot to preserve the pagan heritage of its doctrine, but this particular thing is hard to swallow only because it is the 'name' of the messiah.
However, I haven't fully bought the arguments used by either side. I can probably argue just as well from either standpoint, which only confuses me even more. Yes, I can see how the transliteration from Aramaic/Hebrew into the Greek Iesous is rather vague, and most likely incorrect. However, it is another step yet to declare that it was done with malicious intent.
I have yet to cross the thresh-hold of either camp.
I do, however, see the value in preserving the name of Y'shua. Out of purity of tongue I have chosen to abstain from using "j e s u s" at this point in time because honestly I don't know which side correct.
-Exodus 23:13 "Do not speak the names of other g-ds; do not let them be heard upon your lips."
Because of this clear instruction, and because I honestly do not know I have chosen to not use the Greek rendition and English transliteration of that name. I have chosen to use a name I do know is pure and right.
I would never cast judgement upon others for using whatever name they want, and as I stated previously, I would never base anyone's salvation upon whatever name they have seen fit to call the Messiah (within reason
).I'll try to bring some more notes in later.
Shalom,
Yafet.
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simchat_torah
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A quick note on the word "g o d":
Gad is a Syrian or Canaanite deity of good luck or fortune. In Hebrew, it is written GD, but with Massoretic vowel-pointing, it is "Gad." Other Scriptural references to a similar deity, also written GD, have a vowel-pointing giving us "Gawd" or "God." Gad, or Gawd is identified with Jupiter, the Sky-deity or the Sun-deity.
Similarly, the word "l o r d" also has pagan influence:
There was an Etruscan house deity whose name was Lar, which signified "Lord." It was also known as Larth, who later on became very popular in Rome and became known as Lares (plural) because as idol statues they were usually in pairs. The Greek equivalent of this name was Heros, which was another name for Zeus. A feminine form was known as Lara, who was the beloved of the god Mercury. Lord has since been derived from Lar and Larth. The letters "th" and "d" were virtually interchangeably used, in various nations. It was also common to find "o" and "a" interchangeably used in Old and Middle English. The word "Lord" can also be traced back to Loride, a surname for the Teutonic god Thor, and to Lordo, another deity
-Online Encyclopedia Britannica
Gad is a Syrian or Canaanite deity of good luck or fortune. In Hebrew, it is written GD, but with Massoretic vowel-pointing, it is "Gad." Other Scriptural references to a similar deity, also written GD, have a vowel-pointing giving us "Gawd" or "God." Gad, or Gawd is identified with Jupiter, the Sky-deity or the Sun-deity.
Similarly, the word "l o r d" also has pagan influence:
There was an Etruscan house deity whose name was Lar, which signified "Lord." It was also known as Larth, who later on became very popular in Rome and became known as Lares (plural) because as idol statues they were usually in pairs. The Greek equivalent of this name was Heros, which was another name for Zeus. A feminine form was known as Lara, who was the beloved of the god Mercury. Lord has since been derived from Lar and Larth. The letters "th" and "d" were virtually interchangeably used, in various nations. It was also common to find "o" and "a" interchangeably used in Old and Middle English. The word "Lord" can also be traced back to Loride, a surname for the Teutonic god Thor, and to Lordo, another deity
-Online Encyclopedia Britannica
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Simchat:
This brings in the possibility of Roman Hellenistic influence and influx, and is often argued that it was done in order to reflect Zeus' name.... and in Greek would depict "Healing Zeus".
HT:
zeus is actually rendered ze. The us is added just like the s is on Iesou. The words are not the same at all. I have heard this argument before, but no one is able to prove it linguistically.
This brings in the possibility of Roman Hellenistic influence and influx, and is often argued that it was done in order to reflect Zeus' name.... and in Greek would depict "Healing Zeus".
HT:
zeus is actually rendered ze. The us is added just like the s is on Iesou. The words are not the same at all. I have heard this argument before, but no one is able to prove it linguistically.
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simchat_torah
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I don't think I quite follow Higher_Truth.
Zues is a Greek name. How can additions in Greek be added to a Greek name?
not quite sure I follow...
Shalom,
Yafet.
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If I remember correctly it is rendered as ze, and the us is added for pronunciation purposes. I will check.
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simchat_torah
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In the English?
If it is added for enunciation in the Greek, then it would be part of the Greek word, would it not?
If it exists in the Greek, then the argument falls apart and it remains a possibility that Iesous is derived from Zeus. If it does not exist in Greek, then why is it added to Iesous in the English transliteration (which makes absolutely no sense at all)?
this doesn't make any sense HT.
????
a bit confused,
yafet.
If it is added for enunciation in the Greek, then it would be part of the Greek word, would it not?
If it exists in the Greek, then the argument falls apart and it remains a possibility that Iesous is derived from Zeus. If it does not exist in Greek, then why is it added to Iesous in the English transliteration (which makes absolutely no sense at all)?
this doesn't make any sense HT.
????
a bit confused,
yafet.
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simchat_torah
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I guess I'll just wait for you to find the documentation...
maybe I'll give my friend a call. errr, nevermind, I think its like 11pm his time and I know he has a DSS class at 8am. bah, I'll just email him, see what he has to say.
shalom!
yafet.
maybe I'll give my friend a call. errr, nevermind, I think its like 11pm his time and I know he has a DSS class at 8am. bah, I'll just email him, see what he has to say.
shalom!
yafet.
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