Is it worth fighting hate?

[JGG]

How does a non-Christian, such as myself, fight hate from Christians? It was recently revealed to me that atheists are the enemies of Christianity.

Now, I don't believe that this necessarily needs to be true, but as long as Christians believe it, it is true. If you as Christians decide I'm your enemy, then I'm your enemy, I don't actually get to have a say.

I certainly don't need enemies, and I would hope that you don't want them either. So, realistically (and please note that I have underlined the word realistically) how do we, or in the very least I, fix it? Or is it even worth it?

 

[razeontherock]

Even in the quotes you provide, (some of which I recognize as taglines) there is a VERY important distinction which you can learn to recognize, even as an unbeliever.

atheISM, is an ideology. This is enmity to Christianity.

AtheISTS are people, which are never Christian's enemies! You will serve a most valid function by pointing out the difference to Christians as the need arises, and here is the key thing they will (should) listen to:

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]."

If the meaning of this is not already clear to you, go ahead and ask for clarification. It is important to know what it means before you go and use it, but this doesn't take any elaborate, intertwined context like some passages do. This passage stands on it's own, quite well.

And FYI, atheists aren't exempt from this particular failing either. I recall one instance of one saying he doesn't attack people but only their ideas, but then claiming I attacked him personally when I only referred to his ideas. There is a difference: we can change our ideas. It's a good idea even, when info warrants it

 

[JGG]

Even in the quotes you provide, (some of which I recognize as taglines) there is a VERY important distinction which you can learn to recognize, even as an unbeliever.

atheISM, is an ideology. This is enmity to Christianity.

AtheISTS are people, which are never Christian's enemies! You will serve a most valid function by pointing out the difference to Christians as the need arises, and here is the key thing they will (should) listen to:

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]."

Such people aren't going to listen to me. I'm the enemy afterall. I've learned this week that even suggesting that atheists are basically the same as anyone else, but believe a myriad of different things is not a welcome idea "among Christians." It is apparently considered anti-Christian. Atheists are wicked, communists who will kill Christians without a second thought. We are the rulers of darkness of this world. Perhaps this is a Christian teaching, I don't know.

If the meaning of this is not already clear to you, go ahead and ask for clarification. It is important to know what it means before you go and use it, but this doesn't take any elaborate, intertwined context like some passages do. This passage stands on it's own, quite well.

And FYI, atheists aren't exempt from this particular failing either. I recall one instance of one saying he doesn't attack people but only their ideas, but then claiming I attacked him personally when I only referred to his ideas. There is a difference: we can change our ideas. It's a good idea even, when info warrants it

I'm fairly certain such people have made their minds up about me, and scripture tends not to work as people like to find other scripture to counter it.

 

[bling]

The good news is “If you are a true enemy of Christians” we Love you!

If you are not going to change than you provide an excellent opportunity for us to Love you unconditionally! (We can actual experience unconditional Love, show other what unconditional Love is like, and be truly Christ like).

If you are not seeing this “Love” from people calling themselves Christians it is because they are not “Christians” (Christian is not a title but a descriptive term).

 

[razeontherock]

suggesting that atheists are basically the same as anyone else, but believe a myriad of different things is not a welcome idea "among Christians."

I'm sorry you had that experience, but now you're being bigoted. I'm a Christian, and have been for 30 years. I don't share the horrible attitude these people portray, and you should be able to tell that by my previous response.

Perhaps this is a Christian teaching, I don't know.

This gets sticky: some Christians may teach other Christians horrible ideas like this, and some may even do it from the Pulpit. That doesn't make it "a Christian teaching." Neither does it mean those involved "aren't Christians." It DOES mean this is not Christ like behavior!

I'm fairly certain such people have made their minds up about me, and scripture tends not to work as people like to find other scripture to counter it.

There IS no Scripture to counter this! That's why I gave it to you. Scripture "works" in Christians. Unfortunately it doesn't always work immediately, like a light switch. You have correctly put your finger on the problem, which has no bearing to Christianity. Some people just have a closed mind, on any of a variety of topics. I try to avoid that myself, but there may be some occasion where YOU, specifically, clearly see my mind closed on a particular point. What is the right thing to do in that situation? Obviously, it's to tell me. And if you could, use Scripture because I'll recognize it's authority. That will likely never happen, but here I've furnished you with how to be part of the solution ...

 

[oi_antz]

How does a non-Christian, such as myself, fight hate from Christians? It was recently revealed to me that atheists are the enemies of Christianity.

Now, I don't believe that this necessarily needs to be true, but as long as Christians believe it, it is true. If you as Christians decide I'm your enemy, then I'm your enemy, I don't actually get to have a say.

I certainly don't need enemies, and I would hope that you don't want them either. So, realistically (and please note that I have underlined the word realistically) how do we, or in the very least I, fix it? Or is it even worth it?

That is disgusting, I hate such discrimination and I'm sure Jesus does too. We humans are all on the same side whether we realise it or not. Atheists are not actually enemies of God, they are simply victims of the deception of God's enemies. However as Ray suggested it requires some closed mindedness to support a denial of truth, I know Christianity requires a more open mind than atheism, for example the six day creation really stretches the mind, and attempting to understand (I mean really comprehend) how this is consistent with carbon dating and evolution theory is a good example.

 

[JGG]

That is disgusting, I hate such discrimination and I'm sure Jesus does too. We humans are all on the same side whether we realise it or not. Atheists are not actually enemies of God, they are simply victims of the deception of God's enemies. However as Ray suggested it requires some closed mindedness to support a denial of truth, I know Christianity requires a more open mind than atheism, for example the six day creation really stretches the mind, and attempting to understand (I mean really comprehend) how this is consistent with carbon dating and evolution theory is a good example.

Well see, calling me "closed minded" doesn't benefit your argument. I don't think it requires an open mind to be Christian or atheist, it requires a different mind. It requires a different viewpoint of reality. Besides, by this argument, the people we're talking about are somehow more "open minded" than I am. The guy who said that "Christians and atheists can no longer peacefully co-exist" is more open-minded than any atheist. Is that realistic?

I'm sure I'm far more open minded to ideas that you would not be. Do you think that's a fair assessment?

The good news is “If you are a true enemy of Christians” we Love you!

I don't think that's true if Christians declare me their enemy.

I'm sorry you had that experience, but now you're being bigoted. I'm a Christian, and have been for 30 years. I don't share the horrible attitude these people portray, and you should be able to tell that by my previous response.

Let's just say that I put the phrase "among Christians" in quotes above for a particular reason. It has to do with certain "regulations" and certain people that I'm not supposed to make reference to around here.

 

[oi_antz]

Well see, calling me "closed minded" doesn't benefit your argument. I don't think it requires an open mind to be Christian or atheist, it requires a different mind. It requires a different viewpoint of reality. Besides, by this argument, the people we're talking about are somehow more "open minded" than I am. The guy who said that "Christians and atheists can no longer peacefully co-exist" is more open-minded than any atheist. Is that realistic?

I'm sure I'm far more open minded to ideas that you would not be. Do you think that's a fair assessment?

Could you give me an example? You could very well be right (I am capable of being wrong *shock!*), what do you think I have closed my mind to? I can tell you that you have closed your mind to the reality of God and you wouldn't dispute that, would you?

Edit: Being open minded is quite different from being correct. It is the act of being prepared to entertain and attempt to accept information. While he currently believes that Christians and Atheists are too far at odds to co-exist peacefully, it is only due to the fact that he has not encountered the right information or experience to believe that they can co-exist peacefully, and it is only a matter of time before that happens (whether he is granted sufficient time to encounter this information is something only God knows).

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I don't think many Christians actually see you as an enemy, but even if they did this is what Jesus commanded:

Matthew 5:44 "But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which spitefully use you, and persecute you;"

Luke 6:27 "But I say to you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you".

I have to admit I have not always acted in love to people I have felt were my enemies. I was wrong - as we all can be. That is why we have grace. The cross provides us with a means of forgiveness if we blow it. Do I try to act in love, yes, and I hope I am doing a better job of it now that I have in the past. But only God really can weigh our hearts. We should all be forgiving like Jesus, he said "Father forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who have sinned against us". Please forgive me if I have acted at any time in a negative way with any atheist, or even thought a negative thought, I ask that you also forgive us for our part in any negative dialogue.

 

[seekthelord]

How does a non-Christian, such as myself, fight hate from Christians? It was recently revealed to me that atheists are the enemies of Christianity.

Now, I don't believe that this necessarily needs to be true, but as long as Christians believe it, it is true. If you as Christians decide I'm your enemy, then I'm your enemy, I don't actually get to have a say.

I certainly don't need enemies, and I would hope that you don't want them either. So, realistically (and please note that I have underlined the word realistically) how do we, or in the very least I, fix it? Or is it even worth it?

Hi JGG
realistically it has been going through the process of being fixed for hundreds of years or maybe a bit less.
The BUZZ word is ' being civilised.'

Do you see each country not hating all others.
Yet they need to be outwardly civilised towards others even though this might be by force eg through United Nations though hatred may still exist.
These countries are manned by human beings.

Christians are forced by civilisated governments to traet everyone alike no matter any hatred they may have.
All human beings are forced to treat everyone alike no matter what hatred lies beneath.
However, christians, though history proves God has been a failure here to force them, suggesting these type christians were not belonging to God, have had commands from the leader of their spiritual nation to love even their enemies when they do wrong to them.

But this alerts them that they can have enemies,
Who then are these enemies?
The bible reveals who many of them are.
Any believing christian must believe that there are enemies of God and consequently God's people out there.

Just because there are enemies out there should not let any non christian falsely accuse christians of hating these enemies just because they are enemies learnt from Yahweh in God's word

So why do you try to fight God's word and tend towaed slander for effect rather than simply ask why you should be an enemy of christians?

That type person is probably a christian's enemy!

To be loved in whatever way is possible,

Shalom,

seekthelord

 

[bling]

I don't think that's true if Christians declare me their enemy.

Satan is the enemy, every mature adult human is either a slave of satan or God. We were all slaves of satan at one time.

 

[JGG]

Hi JGG
realistically it has been going through the process of being fixed for hundreds of years or maybe a bit less.
The BUZZ word is ' being civilised.'

Do you see each country not hating all others.
Yet they need to be outwardly civilised towards others even though this might be by force eg through United Nations though hatred may still exist.
These countries are manned by human beings.

Christians are forced by civilisated governments to traet everyone alike no matter any hatred they may have.
All human beings are forced to treat everyone alike no matter what hatred lies beneath.
However, christians, though history proves God has been a failure here to force them, suggesting these type christians were not belonging to God, have had commands from the leader of their spiritual nation to love even their enemies when they do wrong to them.

But this alerts them that they can have enemies,
Who then are these enemies?
The bible reveals who many of them are.
Any believing christian must believe that there are enemies of God and consequently God's people out there.

Just because there are enemies out there should not let any non christian falsely accuse christians of hating these enemies just because they are enemies learnt from Yahweh in God's word

So why do you try to fight God's word and tend towaed slander for effect rather than simply ask why you should be an enemy of christians?

That type person is probably a christian's enemy!

To be loved in whatever way is possible,

Shalom,

seekthelord

Let me start by asking this: Are atheists, or unbelievers the enemy of God? If they are, then perhaps you have a point.

However, I do not feel that Christians necessarily have to be my enemy. Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of beefs with modern Christianity, but I see no reason for Christianity, or Christians to be my enemy. The only reason I see to consider Christians my enemy, is that they might consider me their enemy, in which case I have little choice in the matter.

This brings me to the crux of the point. If I had declared Christians my enemy, I could understand how they could have me as an enemy and still "love" me.

But, I don't see how these supposed Christians can choose to declare me their enemy, based solely on the fact that I don't believe in their God, and then claim at the same time that they "love" me. Not only does the unnecessary creation of such division seem counter-intuitive with the commands to "love thy neighbour," to "do unto others..." and to spread the word of God, but I don't see how we can attribute defining someone as your enemy simply because they believe differently than you, to anything other than hate. Realistically, can you? I can think of no situation where we would willfully choose to make enemies of someone we love, and no situation where enemies are borne out of anything but hate.

But by all means explain why I am an enemy of Christianity. If atheists are enemies of God, then I understand, but for that I would have a different can of worms to bring out.

 

[bling]

Let me start by asking this: Are atheists, or unbelievers the enemy of God? If they are, then perhaps you have a point.

However, I do not feel that Christians necessarily have to be my enemy. Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of beefs with modern Christianity, but I see no reason for Christianity, or Christians to be my enemy. The only reason I see to consider Christians my enemy, is that they might consider me their enemy, in which case I have little choice in the matter.

This brings me to the crux of the point. If I had declared Christians my enemy, I could understand how they could have me as an enemy and still "love" me.

But, I don't see how these supposed Christians can choose to declare me their enemy, based solely on the fact that I don't believe in their God, and then claim at the same time that they "love" me. Not only does the unnecessary creation of such division seem counter-intuitive with the commands to "love thy neighbour," to "do unto others..." and to spread the word of God, but I don't see how we can attribute defining someone as your enemy simply because they believe differently than you, to anything other than hate. Realistically, can you? I can think of no situation where we would willfully choose to make enemies of someone we love, and no situation where enemies are borne out of anything but hate.

But by all means explain why I am an enemy of Christianity. If atheists are enemies of God, then I understand, but for that I would have a different can of worms to bring out.

It might be complicated by the fact we either sow good seed or bad seed, but we will sew something. Do you influence other people's thinking away from God?

 

[JGG]

It might be complicated by the fact we either sow good seed or bad seed, but we will sew something. Do you influence other people's thinking away from God?

Well this is a pretty slippery slope. I would say no, as that is never my intention. However, even if that was my goal, given the existence of this thread, and the nature of the people who inspired it, I could never be as effective at turning people away from God as Christians themselves are.

The reasons I don't believe in God are long and complicated. However, the reason I'm not still a Christian is directly related to how the Christians around me spoke of, and treated non-Christians, and ultimately how I was treated for defending them.

Isn't it reasonable to say that Christians themselves are the enemies of Christianity? For instance, telling me that I am the enemy, will generally not turn me toward Christ, it will actually turn me away. Love or not, declaring me the enemy would be drawing a line in the sand, and would hardly inspire me to cross it. Not only that, but calling me the enemy, essentially closes all doors to dialogue, as you would have declared yourself my enemy. Don't you think that would influence someone's thinking away from God?

I can tell you first hand, it does.

 

[oi_antz]

Well this is a pretty slippery slope. I would say no, as that is never my intention. However, even if that was my goal, given the existence of this thread, and the nature of the people who inspired it, I could never be as effective at turning people away from God as Christians themselves are.

The reasons I don't believe in God are long and complicated. However, the reason I'm not still a Christian is directly related to how the Christians around me spoke of, and treated non-Christians, and ultimately how I was treated for defending them.

Isn't it reasonable to say that Christians themselves are the enemies of Christianity? For instance, telling me that I am the enemy, will generally not turn me toward Christ, it will actually turn me away. Love or not, declaring me the enemy would be drawing a line in the sand, and would hardly inspire me to cross it. Not only that, but calling me the enemy, essentially closes all doors to dialogue, as you would have declared yourself my enemy. Don't you think that would influence someone's thinking away from God?

I can tell you first hand, it does.

I am in agreement with you about this, so many Christians really screw it up for others by expressing their own ideas rather than concentrating on assisting others with their misconceptions. Essentially it could be described as a form of selfishness, where rather than helping another come closer to God, what eventuates is a form of insisting "I'm right and you're wrong". This doesn't impact whether God loves us or not, but it does highlight the extreme vigilance that is required so as not to harm people's perception of Jesus and what He taught. Do remember though that He said He had come to bring a sword to the world, with the intention of distinguishing those who belong to God from those who don't, and He has been very very effective at doing that, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Sketcher]

As long as you're not a Dawkins/Hitchens gutter-level atheist, I do not consider you my enemy, and I would be happy to shake your hand.

 

[sk8Joyful]

I am in agreement with you
about this: so many Christians really screw it up for others
by expressing their own ideas, rather than concentrating on
assisting others with their misconceptions.
Essentially it could be described as a form of selfishness,
where rather than helping another come closer to God,
what eventuates is a form of insisting "I'm right and you're wrong".

This doesn't impact whether God loves us or not, wouldn't you agree?

That about says it. - JGG, Is it worth, fighting hate?
-and I think you know the answer to that.
Which feels better to you, inside & out:
fighting hate; or embracing love, especially the kind GOD/Jesus demonstrated & taught us as worthy...
what do you think?
& remember
in case you run into more comfuzled christians, the foremost way
to get them traveling God's Straight...way, is to be on it yourself... PRAISE God!

 

[razeontherock]

Very interesting turns and contributions here! Just a couple things I want to address:

Isn't it reasonable to say that Christians themselves are the enemies of Christianity?

It may help to shed some light on this phenomenon. You could think of all us Christians as schizophrenic, in the sense that we have our own sinful nature as well as this new nature born in us, that none of us even really know what it will be like when mature. The immediate reaction is always to respond in sin, so in that way we are enemies of ourselves, our Lord, His Father, each other, and yes, also Christianity itself.

And this is why you see us scrutinizing Scripture so much, because it is the only reliable guide we have to even try to avoid all that mess. The most valid parts are readily understood by anyone, no special context or other considerations required, for example:

"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, Galations 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."


So all you have to do to be part of the solution is point out to any of us at any time when (not if, but WHEN) we're on the wrong side of that line. It shouldn't be necessary to remind us we've made ourselves enemies of our own selves and also of everything that is good, but if need be that can be in your arsenal too.

Jesus didn't come for those that are Spiritually healthy, but for those of us that are sin-sick. The Church is not a place to Glorify people that are already wonderful, but is a hospital in which to recover. And the only thing any of us have in common w/ the Lord, that grants us access to His Grace, is this faulty condition. That He took upon Himself willingly via the Cross, for the very purpose of having something to truly share with us!

Then the other thing: that "Dawkins/Hitchens gutter-level atheist" comment - does that help?

 

[JGG]

Very interesting turns and contributions here! Just a couple things I want to address:



It may help to shed some light on this phenomenon. You could think of all us Christians as schizophrenic, in the sense that we have our own sinful nature as well as this new nature born in us, that none of us even really know what it will be like when mature. The immediate reaction is always to respond in sin, so in that way we are enemies of ourselves, our Lord, His Father, each other, and yes, also Christianity itself.

And this is why you see us scrutinizing Scripture so much, because it is the only reliable guide we have to even try to avoid all that mess. The most valid parts are readily understood by anyone, no special context or other considerations required, for example:

"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, Galations 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

So all you have to do to be part of the solution is point out to any of us at any time when (not if, but WHEN) we're on the wrong side of that line. It shouldn't be necessary to remind us we've made ourselves enemies of our own selves and also of everything that is good, but if need be that can be in your arsenal too.

To be fair, that is pretty much exactly what I did (worked from the platform of being unnecessarily divisive). And well, let's say the "powers-that-be" did not approve of the message.

Jesus didn't come for those that are Spiritually healthy, but for those of us that are sin-sick. The Church is not a place to Glorify people that are already wonderful, but is a hospital in which to recover. And the only thing any of us have in common w/ the Lord, that grants us access to His Grace, is this faulty condition. That He took upon Himself willingly via the Cross, for the very purpose of having something to truly share with us!

Maybe. Realistically though, this has never been my experience with Christianity.

Then the other thing: that "Dawkins/Hitchens gutter-level atheist" comment - does that help?

Not really. I don't know much about Dawkins and Hitchens. I basically know who they are, but I don't know much about them. I know Dawkins is a biologist, and Hitchens is a writer. I'm not entirely sure why they're "gutter-level atheists."

 

[Wirraway]

Or is it even worth it?

no, not really.