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Is it Time to Admit Islam is Pagan?

EnemyOfReason

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Well is it people?

Islam like all other religions encountered and studied by mankind is without a doubt based upon some preexisting theology or spiritualism.

Islam is a poor fusion of Judaism and Arabic Paganism(In Arabic it is called Wathaniyya). I of course have an obvious fascination with this which is pretty evident for some, not for others.

Islam in this day of age has failed socially, theologically and morally. Would it not be better for Muslims to just strip the Judaic meshing of Islam and de-evolve the religion to its original form?

Almost all forms of cultural religion are free and liberal in thought. They progress and advance in accordance to culture and the abundance of knowledge. They are base themselves from natural theology and not "revelation" which has become an overused word.

If you read the Qur'an you will realize something abundant in the first 20 suwar and certain ayah. They often repeatedly speak of prophesies and Allah's power behind the prophets. What is even more wierd as found in ahadith is the explination of a prophet that had to be given to the Mushrikun(polytheists).

The reason for this was because a prophet was not a common concept amongst the pre-Islamic Arabs. Sha'ir(theological poets) were the type of people who were as close to prophets as the Arabs got. Ponders and writers who came to conclusions about god. This of course was obviously mixed with whatever lore and folk customs.

This was a very common system for pre-Christian and pre-Islamic societies. Poetry WAS revelation as it was capable of moving the heart and emotions along with it.


Perhaps I am just rambling here :D. But could you blame me for being a fool when so much rich history in Arabia has been obliterated by the coming of Islam to be replaced by an inferior religion with an inferior ideology centered around anthropolatry
 

Arthra

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I really don't see what is accomplished by writing a phrase like

"...an inferior religion with an inferior ideology..."

While certainly people have exploited religion for their purposes whether political or for other short term gains the religion itself is hardly "inferior".

"Islam in this day of age has failed socially, theologically and morally."

There is admittedly a crisis and part of that is due in my view to

(1) The effects of modernity on traditional practices...which is not a bad thing in itself..certain traditions need to be revised and revised

and

(2) Political instability in the Middle East and other areas

Spiritually the teachings of the Prophet and the revelation of the Qur'an is still viable..and will continue.
 
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EnemyOfReason

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I really don't see what is accomplished by writing a phrase like

"...an inferior religion with an inferior ideology..."

While certainly people have exploited religion for their purposes whether political or for other short term gains the religion itself is hardly "inferior".

Well you keep thinking of Islam itself. I am comparing it to what came before. I am not saying it is the greatest thing on earth but it leaves so much wiggle room as all natural theologies do.

Anything without dogma is thus superior so the inferiority of Islam is only evident in a subjective manner here.

Because obviously there are some people who really love Islam. Hence so many convert

"Islam in this day of age has failed socially, theologically and morally."

There is admittedly a crisis and part of that is due in my view to

(1) The effects of modernity on traditional practices...which is not a bad thing in itself..certain traditions need to be revised and revised

and

(2) Political instability in the Middle East and other areas

Islam has failed, I know you are a Baha'i adherent but it does not change what has occured. I never see or hear about Bahais harming anyone nor do I think I should ever worry about it.

Islam on the other hand has failed to adapt and has been set up to fail the minute 'extracurricular' garbage was brought into it. Such as al-Kuttub al-Sittah. "The Erroneous Six" as I like to call it ;).

Islam has been reformed, reconstructed and changed on a 99.94% chance(throwing out random calculations here).


Spiritually the teachings of the Prophet and the revelation of the Qur'an is still viable..and will continue.

Do you even read the Qur'an or own one? Do you understand how to read it's "Arabiyun mubi'nun"
 
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simplegifts

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Well is it people?

Islam like all other religions encountered and studied by mankind is without a doubt based upon some preexisting theology or spiritualism.

Islam is a poor fusion of Judaism and Arabic Paganism(In Arabic it is called Wathaniyya). I of course have an obvious fascination with this which is pretty evident for some, not for others.

Islam in this day of age has failed socially, theologically and morally. Would it not be better for Muslims to just strip the Judaic meshing of Islam and de-evolve the religion to its original form?

Almost all forms of cultural religion are free and liberal in thought. They progress and advance in accordance to culture and the abundance of knowledge. They are base themselves from natural theology and not "revelation" which has become an overused word.

If you read the Qur'an you will realize something abundant in the first 20 suwar and certain ayah. They often repeatedly speak of prophesies and Allah's power behind the prophets. What is even more wierd as found in ahadith is the explination of a prophet that had to be given to the Mushrikun(polytheists).

The reason for this was because a prophet was not a common concept amongst the pre-Islamic Arabs. Sha'ir(theological poets) were the type of people who were as close to prophets as the Arabs got. Ponders and writers who came to conclusions about god. This of course was obviously mixed with whatever lore and folk customs.

This was a very common system for pre-Christian and pre-Islamic societies. Poetry WAS revelation as it was capable of moving the heart and emotions along with it.


Perhaps I am just rambling here :D. But could you blame me for being a fool when so much rich history in Arabia has been obliterated by the coming of Islam to be replaced by an inferior religion with an inferior ideology centered around anthropolatry

Would be very funny read if it weren't so sad:
“Islamic Purity” MYTH BUSTED | SamHindu.WordPress.com
 
SOME TIMES BY SAM HINDU
Once upon a time there lived a man named Muhammad who claimed that his religion, the Islamic religion, was a perfect religion of absolute purity.
But is it really?
This article will attempt to make clear that no human being or religion has ever done as much harm to the well-being of humanity as has Muhammad bin Abdullah of Arabian fame and his barbaric cult of Islam. Muhammad: A Cult Leader or Muslims are struck in a cult. (via Santosh Bhatt’s Blog)
To this day, Muslims still believe that Islam is a perfect religion and the only trye religion on earth. In fact the Islamists, the "true believers", must believe and respect everything that Muhammad said and did. Muslims must not only believe that Islam is the one and only true religion on earth, they must also believe that all other religions are grossly inaccurate and ultimately offensive to God. Muhammad certainly made many extreme and dangerous statements.
"Islamic Purity" is another one of the many idiotic myths commonly believed by Muslims. In reality, Islam is anything but pure and true. It is quite laughable to read through Muhammad’s murder manual, the unholy Quran, and notice how many times it claims the religion to be perfect and pure. The tall claim that Islam is a religion of truth and purity and a religion of peace and justice is preposterous. Such falsehoods could only be believed by the uninformed or the feeble-minded.
The Notion of Islamic Purity:
The Islamic "holy books" are filled with empty claims stating that Islam is a pure and true religion. For 1400 years, many well-meaning Muslims have dedicated their lives attempting to improve and advance Muhammad’s cult of death and destruction. It is high-time that Muslims take a good hard look at the life of Muhammad and the details of this sick man’s religion of fear and hatred. It is ridiculous that educated Muslims are still stubbornly refusing to acknowledge that the prophet of Islam was indeed a mad man.
Throughout the centuries, Muslims have invested enormous amounts of time and energy trying to improve, beautify and purify Muhammad’s religion. Yet despite all of their efforts, Islam has failed Muslims horribly. In the end, the cruel injustice of Sharia law is the bitter fruit that Islam has historically produced over and over again the devout and obedient followers of Muhammad. Muslims always end up killing each other and trying to conquer others.
One of Islam’s most common attempts to achieve "Islamic purity" is wudu (ablution). Performing wudu – the washing of various parts of the body over and over again before performing salat (Islamic rituals of prayer) –THIS IS WHAT ALL MUSLIMS RECITE ALL DAY IN THEIR FIVE DAILY SALATS AND FREE TIME is surely one of the more ridiculous of Islam’s many outlandish rituals. Having to repeat the washing of specific parts of the body over and over again 5 times a day is obvious proof of Muhammad’s obsessive compulsive disorder and the complete control he had over the lives of his brainwashed band of seventh century bandits. Mad Mohammad, What an Irony?
Another false image of Islamic purity is to be found in the elaborate works of art that decorate many mosques. These works are another testament to Muslim’s attempt to portray Islam as a religion of beauty and purity. Of course Muhammad would have forbidden such efforts and instead demanded that his followers wage jihad and collect the booty for him. Unfortunately for the misguided Mohammedans,OR A (good) Moslem has to be a Terrorist! (via Sam Hindu’s Blog) no amount of adornment can cover up or make clean the dark heart in the chest of Islam. For in truth, Islam is overflowing with the worst kinds of evil. The Islamic religion, in many parts and taken on the whole, is an abomination worthy of being despised.
Since the day that Muhammad’s cruel cult OF Momins and Kafirs.. sprung out of the Arabian Desert it has
destroyed countless number of humans with its horrific doctrines of intolerance and injustice. There are many ludicrous statements to be found in the Quran and Sunnah stating that Islam is a religion of purity. The only challenge is choosing which passages most effectively show Islam to be the laughable fraud that it is. Here are just a few samples taken from Mad Moe’s evil and fundamentally flawed religious cult:
Claims of Islamic purity:
The Quranic passage below is nonsense. The verse is filled with lies. First, the Quran was not revealed to Muhammad. The Quran is the creation of Muhammad’s madness and lies that he used to take whatever he wanted. Secondly, there is no such thing as Muhammad’s Islamic god Allah. What an insult to God if there actually is some sort of god! Thirdly, the Islamic religion is far from pure. The Islamic religion and its prophet are filthy, evil trash Mohammad (founder of Islam) The Pedophile]
Quran, 039.002:
Lo! We have revealed the Scripture unto thee (Muhammad) with truth; so worship Allah, making religion pure for Him (only).
The Quranic verse below is very similar to the one above. The Quran is full of repetitious garbage. Again, the verse is pure lies. And again, as in the above verse, Muhammad claims that those are God’s words. Muhammad was insane and Islam is a pack of lies with a few good things thrown into it for the weaklings and the suckers to cling to. Such is the nature of a cult.
Quran, 039.011:
Say (O Muhammad): Lo! I am commanded to worship Allah, making religion pure for Him (only).
Muslims must lie to themselves and others when they say that Islam is a pure and perfect religion. For example, for every good thing that Muhammad said about women, he said just as many bad things. Islam is full of contradictions, cruelty and gross injustice. Here are some of many disgusting and harmful things that Muhammad said about women:
002.222
They ask thee concerning women’s courses. Say: They are a hurt and a pollution: So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean.
002.228
Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad).
002.223
And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them.
002.230
So if a husband divorces his wife (irrevocably), He cannot, after that, re-marry her until after she has married another husband and He has divorced her.
004.003
Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess (female sex slave), that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
* Of course the words "or (a captive) that your right hands possess" mean female sex slaves.
004.011
Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children’s (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females:
004.024
Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess:
004.034
Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
Hadith, Sahih Bukhari,Volume 7, Book 62, Number 31:
Narrated Ibn ‘Umar: Evil omen was mentioned before the Prophet: The Prophet said, "If there is evil omen in anything, it is in the house, the woman and the horse."
Hadith, Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 122:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "If a woman spends the night deserting her husband’s bed (does not sleep with him), then the angels send their curses on her till she comes back (to her husband)."
Hadith, Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 460:
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, "If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sexual relation) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning."
Hadith, Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 28:
Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas: The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful." It was asked, "Do they disbelieve in Allah?" (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, "They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, ‘I have never received any good from you."
Hadith: Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 11, No. 2142:
Narrated Umar ibn al-kahttab:
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.
Conclusion:
Those Muslims’ that still believe Islam to be a pure and true religion are clearly suffering from "Islamic brain damage" PLEASE READ THIS Muhammad: A Cult Leader or Muslims are struck in a cult. (via Santosh Bhatt’s Blog)
 
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EnemyOfReason

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Interesting points in the OP. I like me some paganism lol.

This is my point. Paganism is hedonistic which fits in line with human nature.

You are an agnostic, I bet you are so hedonistic you never had even have enough time to determine if god even exists :D.

"Abu Huraira said, "Abu Bakr sent me in that Hajj in which he was the chief of the pilgrims along with the announcers whom he sent on the Day of Nahr to announce at Mina: "No pagan shall perform Hajj after this year, and none shall perform the Tawaf around the Ka'ba in a naked state." Humaid added: That the Prophet sent 'Ali bin Abi Talib (after Abu Bakr) and ordered him to recite aloud in public Surat-Baraa. Abu Huraira added, "So 'Ali, along with us, recited Bara'a (loudly) before the people at Mina on the Day of Nahr and announced "No pagan shall perform Hajj after this year and none shall perform the Tawaf around the Ka'ba in a naked state."..except those pagans with whom you (Muslims) have a treaty." (9.4). (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 179)"

Pagan Arabia also had no issue with nudity. It also had no issue with sex worship!

Image the reverse of religion today. How Christians and Muslims complain about modesty. A Pagan would have walked up to a woman and asked her why she is not wearing short-shorts ^_^.

Weed would have been legalized and Sexual immorality would be acceptable. Along with no bickering about contraception, homosexual oppression, and more importantly no preacher telling you that if you do not join his faith you will go to hell.

Almost all Pagan societies, whether it be Hellenic, Nordic, Kemetic, Wathani or Druid all are extremely liberal and embrace just about anything. Good or bad it never mattered. Neo-Paganism with some 21 century knowledge would be an excellent replacement for the religions we have today which are greedy, corporate, death cults.
If a person believes in god, then at least have some fun with it.
 
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Zoness

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This is my point. Paganism is hedonistic which fits in line with human nature.

You are an agnostic, I bet you are so hedonistic you never had even have enough time to determine if god even exists :D.

"Abu Huraira said, "Abu Bakr sent me in that Hajj in which he was the chief of the pilgrims along with the announcers whom he sent on the Day of Nahr to announce at Mina: "No pagan shall perform Hajj after this year, and none shall perform the Tawaf around the Ka'ba in a naked state." Humaid added: That the Prophet sent 'Ali bin Abi Talib (after Abu Bakr) and ordered him to recite aloud in public Surat-Baraa. Abu Huraira added, "So 'Ali, along with us, recited Bara'a (loudly) before the people at Mina on the Day of Nahr and announced "No pagan shall perform Hajj after this year and none shall perform the Tawaf around the Ka'ba in a naked state."..except those pagans with whom you (Muslims) have a treaty." (9.4). (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 179)"

Pagan Arabia also had no issue with nudity. It also had no issue with sex worship!

Image the reverse of religion today. How Christians and Muslims complain about modesty. A Pagan would have walked up to a woman and asked her why she is not wearing short-shorts ^_^.

Weed would have been legalized and Sexual immorality would be acceptable. Along with no bickering about contraception, homosexual oppression, and more importantly no preacher telling you that if you do not join his faith you will go to hell.

Almost all Pagan societies, whether it be Hellenic, Nordic, Kemetic, Wathani or Druid all are extremely liberal and embrace just about anything. Good or bad it never mattered. Neo-Paganism with some 21 century knowledge would be an excellent replacement for the religions we have today which are greedy, corporate, death cults.
If a person believes in god, then at least have some fun with it.

I generally agree. To be nit-picky, I wouldn't exactly apply the word "liberal" because that contextually doesn't make much sense given the historical behavior of much of humanity. But your point is taken.

There must be something fundamentally pagan about me, I don't mind nudity at all and sex between two consenting adults is none of my business, go crazy!
 
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EnemyOfReason

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I generally agree. To be nit-picky, I wouldn't exactly apply the word "liberal" because that contextually doesn't make much sense given the historical behavior of much of humanity. But your point is taken.

There must be something fundamentally pagan about me, I don't mind nudity at all and sex between two consenting adults is none of my business, go crazy!

OH GOODY Another reason for me to strip and run up and down my street in my birthday suit!

STREAKING IN THE NAME OF GOD FOR THE WIN!!!!!! :sohappy:"weeeeeee"
 
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Arthra

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I think above you asked:

Do you even read the Qur'an or own one? Do you understand how to read it's "Arabiyun mubi'nun"

In response:

Yes I even read the Qur'an and I actually "own one"...actually more than one. I'm learning Arabic along the way .. I really see very little that can be accomplished by attacking Islam as a spiritual path.
 
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EnemyOfReason

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I think above you asked:

Do you even read the Qur'an or own one? Do you understand how to read it's "Arabiyun mubi'nun"

In response:

Yes I even read the Qur'an and I actually "own one"...actually more than one. I'm learning Arabic along the way .. I really see very little that can be accomplished by attacking Islam as a spiritual path.

Attacking Islam? Islam like all other religions is no more better than what the adherents make it to be.
Most people say that Islam is the fault while I say it is Muslims. I am perhaps one of very few people to know this fact.

Islam harms society the same way Huckleberry Finn does. Yes one can do evil acts in the name of the book but it does not make the book evil. The book can endorse and recommend evil acts but nobody has to act upon them.

The Bible for example has lots of weird things in it and half of it Christians ignore. Such as treating your fellow man like your brother, or forgiveness. I am actually far forgiving than any Christian so much to the point I forget issues I have with people. Happens all the time.

Is the Bible good or bad? Neither. It does no harm, Christians though, whole other story. Same for Muslims.

Just because I disagree with Islam and it's prophet does not mean I attack it. I have a whole lot of things to say about the Baha'i Faith, downright insulting things. But no Baha'i has ever done me wrong or been a problem for anybody!
In all honest you guys never reach the headlines of the news and that is a good thing.

All I ever did was acknowledge that Islam should revert back into it's original form which would be far much better than what we have today. Islam is just a continuation of a previous set of religions ya know.
 
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EnemyOfReason

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Ignorance + Distortion = this post

I challenge you to prove any of your lies

You made a short post and challenged me instead of refuting my claims. Your complaint is pretty much dead before it starts.

Try refuting a claim I made.
 
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EnemyOfReason

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Islam is hardly "pagan": it falls fully within the Abrahamic tradition of religions (as do four others)!

And the descendants of the wives of Abraham indeed founded all five of these religions!

Peace, :)

Bruce

I know that it is Abrahamic but it is built upon the ashes of pagan roots. I sort of dislike using the word pagan honestly as it is not even fitting.

But the non-Abrahamic roots of Islam exceed the current Judaic meshing
 
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I generally agree. To be nit-picky, I wouldn't exactly apply the word "liberal" because that contextually doesn't make much sense given the historical behavior of much of humanity. But your point is taken.

There must be something fundamentally pagan about me, I don't mind nudity at all and sex between two consenting adults is none of my business, go crazy!

Only two consenting adults? That's just not pagan enough. :preach:
 
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EnemyOfReason

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Only two consenting adults? That's just not pagan enough. :preach:

How about a bisexual hump-a-thon involving 2,000 Chinamen, 30,000 Indians, 500 lions, 1,500 wolves and 15,000 ugly Europeans.

Wait.....this is not a hump-a-thon, this is sounding more like Woodstock :D
 
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Redac

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How about a bisexual hump-a-thon involving 2,000 Chinamen, 30,000 Indians, 500 lions, 1,500 wolves and 15,000 ugly Europeans.
And a partridge in a pear tree. :p

Wait.....this is not a hump-a-thon, this is sounding more like Woodstock :D

I don't see a difference.
 
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EnemyOfReason

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I think that islam is too much like the abrahamic faiths to be considered pagan.

Islam has been brought into the Abrahamic fold. But it all stems from the pagan religions predating it.

I never said Islam is pagan. I said it should revert back to its pagan form. :p
 
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