Wow. You guys are going to make me join the PCUSA (not in a million years) but be reasonable here.
Note that AMR's view is a minority view in the PCA and is by no means adopted by the General Assembly. Churches in the PCA are free to practice exclusive psalmody but this view cannot be insisted upon for ordination or imposed upon anyone who disagrees with it. For a very detailed discussion in favor of modern worship music check out Dr. John Frame's (an OPC guy!) Contemporary Worship Music: a Biblical Defense.
You should inform yourself more about the PCA view, despite the fact that the PCA often does not practice what it claims.I'm PCA. ...There is no RP in scripture, so we shouldn't go by the RP.
Parrotting Pratt will not do here. See the response to Pratt in “The Regulative Principle of Worship: Sixty Years in Reformed Literature. Part One (1946–1999),” By Frank J. Smith, Ph.D., D. D. with Chris Coldwell, in The Confessional Presbyterian vol. 2 (2006).The insistence on exclusive psalmody violates the regulative principle because it imposes the convictions of a few on everyone. There's nothing within Scripture that binds the conscience to exclusive psalmody, so to insist upon it violates the regulative principle. This is the very sort of thing that the regulative principle was formulated to guard against.
You should inform yourself more about the PCA view, despite the fact that the PCA often does not practice what it claims.
As to the matter of your error that there is no RPW in Scripture, for example see the article I linked earlier (did you read it?) as well as this:
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/regulative-principle-worship/
Please take the time to review the materials I have linked in my responses.
AMR
I fear explanations explanatory of things explained, especially when they are saturated in Scripture which you have implied are non-existent.Please make your own arguments.
Er, the materials were short articles. We are to make the time to take every word captive for the glory of God.I have not the time to read books...
I fear explanations explanatory of things explained, especially when they are saturated in Scripture which you have implied are non-existent.
Er, the materials were short articles. We are to make the time to take every word captive for the glory of God.
Most do not have time to spend on those that refuse to avail themselves of the thoughts of Godly men that have come before us, as if these men were somehow not indwelled with the same Spirit we all claim. The Reformed know nothing of chronological snobbery or intellectual laziness on matters we hold dear.
Lastly, please speak with your Pastor about your odd claim that the Scripture does not support the RPW.
AMR
A PCA Pastor agrees that there is no support for the RPW in Scripture? What is his name (PM me).My pastor knows about my "odd claim", and he agrees with me. We talked about it before I became a member.
A PCA Pastor agrees that there is no support for the RPW in Scripture? What is his name (PM me).
I would simply like to confirm that a PCA Pastor in good standing agrees with your claim that the principles of the RPW are found wanting in Scripture:What are you going to do, tell his mommy?
Asked, demurred, and answered:...after 4 unanswered requests to you for some, I must conclude that you concur.
I would simply like to confirm that a PCA Pastor in good standing agrees with your claim that the principles of the RPW are found wanting in Scripture:
The normative principle is, if Scripture does not forbid it then it is permissible. The regulative principle is, if Scripture does not command it then it is forbidden. The normative principle is for all of life whereas the regulative principle is for faith and worship. Please see the Confession of Faith, chapter 20, section 2, for a clear statement on this difference.
Your reticence to disclose notwithstanding, I will contact all of the PCA Pastors serving in your vicinity and survey their views on the topic.
Asked, and answered:
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/is-it-sinful-to-sing-hymns-other-than-the-psalms-in-worship.7904094/page-4#post-69718336
Tolle lege.
Please make your own arguments. I have not the time to read books, especially when I'm already convinced that are not correct.
"In the end it comes down to this: no temple, no sacrifice; no sacrifice, no instrument."
If you don't have the time to read articles, much less books, don't bother arguing about a theological position. I don't intend to be rude, but you cannot hope to successfully argue against Exclusive Psalmody (which by the way is the original intent of the doctrinal standards the PCA holds to when it says, "singing of psalms with grace in the heart" in WCF ch. 21) or any other doctrinal issue without reading.
I've read the Bible more times through than you are years old. It's not there, so I'm not going to spend my precious time reading someone weaving together a doctrine that is nonexistent in the pages of scripture.
The PCA does not hold to excessive Psalmody, so I guess the entire denomination is in willful sin and apostate or you are wrong. Hmmmmmmmm.
Discounting my age is not an argument against my position. It's great to hear you've read through the entire Bible almost 25 times now. Does your reading the Bible that many times secure you from any error in understanding? We're all human and prone to error in understanding, no matter how old we are or how many times we've read Scripture (although reading it over frequently is a great thing!). I don't think that attitude/approach is good, especially when determining something as important as our obedience to God in worship.
Your refusal to consider the actual arguments of exclusive psalmodists in books will only serve to weaken your argument for the use of hymns (contra-EP). Even if you disagree, you may find that reading through some things on the subject will be helpful to you. Who knows, perhaps you might change your viewpoint on the subject (as I did maybe 6+ months ago after wrestling through the issue).
I would not characterize the PCA as apostate. I am a member of a PCA congregation and hope to someday serve as a Pastor in a PCA church, MNA planter, or as a Navy Chaplain. Yes I disagree with the use of hymns, but I still love our denomination and want to see it continue to grow and reform to biblical patterns of worship.
I don't think that this argument is convincing.
Correct me if I misunderstand the argument, but it seems to be saying that instrumentation in worship was part of the temple worship system and because the temple worship system has been abolished (or fulfilled - depending on which verbiage you prefer) then the use of instrumentation has also passed away. Here's my response:
- I think this is a misunderstanding of how to apply the Law. It is not the case that the Law no longer applies to us. All of OT Law, including what is sometimes compartmentalized as "ceremonial law" (the Bible itself makes no such distinction), directly applies to us today. The question is "how does it apply?"
- Jesus Christ is our hermeneutical key for applying the Law. Because of Jesus Christ the applications of some laws are significantly altered. The applications of others are not. Two examples follow:
- Laws about animal sacrifice are significantly altered through Jesus Christ. To be sure, a priesthood is still required for us to approach God and sacrifices are still necessary for atonement. But in Jesus we have a better priest and better sacrifice. So the Levitical priesthood is fulfilled in Jesus and so are all the sacrifices.
- A law like "do not murder" is not significantly altered. When this law passes through the hermeneutical filter of the cross it emerges on the other side basically unchanged. We are still called to revere human life, protect it, and refrain from all damage to human life.
- The temple of God still exists. Jesus Christ is our better temple and the body of the church itself is the fulfillment of the temple of God. As such, all Scripture in the OT relating to the temple should be applied to us with this understanding.
- That sacrifices by the hands of the Levites were required in the OT still applies, but is significantly altered because of Jesus. He is our priest who offers himself as our sacrifice. Therefore animal sacrifices and the Levitcal priesthood are fulfilled in him. It is utterly incorrect to say that there is no sacrifice. How can we approach God without a sacrifice? So if the OT sacrifices were accompanied by instruments, how much more should our better sacrifice be accompanied by even greater musical expressions?
- That instrumentation was commanded in the OT still applies, but it is very hard to see how this command is altered by Jesus. The command to use instruments in worship is more similar to a command like "do not bear false witness". The work of Christ as our priest and as the temple of God does nothing to alter the meaning of these commands.
I can understand this thread coming out of the OPC or CRCNA, but not the PCA. I saddens me to see that people in my denomination hold these views.
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