Is it Sinful to Sing Hymns Other than the Psalms in Worship?

Is it sinful to sing hymns other than the psalms in worship?

  • Yes, only unaccompanied psalms should be sung in worship.

    Votes: 4 18.2%
  • Yes, only psalms should be sung in worship; accompaniment is acceptable.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, it is not sinful to sing hymns other than the psalms is worship.

    Votes: 18 81.8%

  • Total voters
    22

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,243
✟48,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Wow. You guys are going to make me join the PCUSA (not in a million years) but be reasonable here.

Note that AMR's view is a minority view in the PCA and is by no means adopted by the General Assembly. Churches in the PCA are free to practice exclusive psalmody but this view cannot be insisted upon for ordination or imposed upon anyone who disagrees with it. For a very detailed discussion in favor of modern worship music check out Dr. John Frame's (an OPC guy!) Contemporary Worship Music: a Biblical Defense.
 
Upvote 0

jimmyjimmy

Pardoned Rebel
Supporter
Jan 2, 2015
11,556
5,728
USA
✟234,973.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Note that AMR's view is a minority view in the PCA and is by no means adopted by the General Assembly. Churches in the PCA are free to practice exclusive psalmody but this view cannot be insisted upon for ordination or imposed upon anyone who disagrees with it. For a very detailed discussion in favor of modern worship music check out Dr. John Frame's (an OPC guy!) Contemporary Worship Music: a Biblical Defense.

Thanks, ToL.

Yes, I understand that the PCA is not bound by AMR's view, I was being humous.

I'm in the PCA, and not the OPC, because of the persnickety stuff that goes on in the OPC.
 
Upvote 0

AMR

Presbyterian (PCA) - Bona Fide Reformed
Jun 19, 2009
6,715
912
Chandler, Arizona
Visit site
✟211,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Upvote 0

AMR

Presbyterian (PCA) - Bona Fide Reformed
Jun 19, 2009
6,715
912
Chandler, Arizona
Visit site
✟211,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The insistence on exclusive psalmody violates the regulative principle because it imposes the convictions of a few on everyone. There's nothing within Scripture that binds the conscience to exclusive psalmody, so to insist upon it violates the regulative principle. This is the very sort of thing that the regulative principle was formulated to guard against.
Parrotting Pratt will not do here. See the response to Pratt in “The Regulative Principle of Worship: Sixty Years in Reformed Literature. Part One (1946–1999),” By Frank J. Smith, Ph.D., D. D. with Chris Coldwell, in The Confessional Presbyterian vol. 2 (2006).

Where has God appointed songs other than the Psalms to be sung in public worship? To introduce things which God has not appointed is an imposition on liberty of conscience and a breach of the regulative principle of worship.
 
Upvote 0

jimmyjimmy

Pardoned Rebel
Supporter
Jan 2, 2015
11,556
5,728
USA
✟234,973.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
You should inform yourself more about the PCA view, despite the fact that the PCA often does not practice what it claims.

As to the matter of your error that there is no RPW in Scripture, for example see the article I linked earlier (did you read it?) as well as this:
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/regulative-principle-worship/

Yes, I understand that the PCA holds to the RP; however, I also hold to my statement that there is no such thing as the RP in scripture. If you disagree, please point to chapter and verse. . .
 
Upvote 0

jimmyjimmy

Pardoned Rebel
Supporter
Jan 2, 2015
11,556
5,728
USA
✟234,973.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Please take the time to review the materials I have linked in my responses.

AMR

Please make your own arguments. I have not the time to read books, especially when I'm already convinced that are not correct.
 
Upvote 0

AMR

Presbyterian (PCA) - Bona Fide Reformed
Jun 19, 2009
6,715
912
Chandler, Arizona
Visit site
✟211,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Please make your own arguments.
I fear explanations explanatory of things explained, especially when they are saturated in Scripture which you have implied are non-existent.

I have not the time to read books...
Er, the materials were short articles. We are to make the time to take every word captive for the glory of God.

Most do not have time to spend on those that refuse to avail themselves of the thoughts of Godly men that have come before us, as if these men were somehow not indwelled with the same Spirit we all claim. The Reformed know nothing of chronological snobbery or intellectual laziness on matters we hold dear.

Lastly, please speak with your Pastor about your odd claim that the Scripture does not support the RPW.

AMR
 
Upvote 0

jimmyjimmy

Pardoned Rebel
Supporter
Jan 2, 2015
11,556
5,728
USA
✟234,973.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
I fear explanations explanatory of things explained, especially when they are saturated in Scripture which you have implied are non-existent.


Er, the materials were short articles. We are to make the time to take every word captive for the glory of God.

Most do not have time to spend on those that refuse to avail themselves of the thoughts of Godly men that have come before us, as if these men were somehow not indwelled with the same Spirit we all claim. The Reformed know nothing of chronological snobbery or intellectual laziness on matters we hold dear.

Lastly, please speak with your Pastor about your odd claim that the Scripture does not support the RPW.

AMR

I'm not too lazy to spell out my thoughts here. . .

My pastor knows about my "odd claim", and he agrees with me. We talked about it before I became a member. The biblical backing for the RP is slim to none, which might be why you can't seem to reply with any.

I actually agree with the RP in general. What I don't do is to hold to it rigidly. The reason for that, again, is the Bible itself doesn't lay out, like the book of Leviticus, the precise and exact worship of God for the NC. I know that disappoints a lot of persnickety folks who like hyper-structure (I know because I am one) but it's just not there.

When one makes the claim, as you have, that singing songs other than Psalms, in worship, is sinful, he needs to back that up with a rational and biblical argument, as he is accusing 90% of Christendom of "sinful" worship of the Living God. That's a serious charge.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Tree of Life
Upvote 0

AMR

Presbyterian (PCA) - Bona Fide Reformed
Jun 19, 2009
6,715
912
Chandler, Arizona
Visit site
✟211,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
My pastor knows about my "odd claim", and he agrees with me. We talked about it before I became a member.
A PCA Pastor agrees that there is no support for the RPW in Scripture? What is his name (PM me).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jimmyjimmy

Pardoned Rebel
Supporter
Jan 2, 2015
11,556
5,728
USA
✟234,973.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
A PCA Pastor agrees that there is no support for the RPW in Scripture? What is his name (PM me).

What are you going to do, tell his mommy?

He agrees that there is very little biblical support for it, and after 4 unanswered requests to you for some, I must conclude that you concur.
 
Upvote 0

AMR

Presbyterian (PCA) - Bona Fide Reformed
Jun 19, 2009
6,715
912
Chandler, Arizona
Visit site
✟211,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
What are you going to do, tell his mommy?
I would simply like to confirm that a PCA Pastor in good standing agrees with your claim that the principles of the RPW are found wanting in Scripture:

The normative principle is, if Scripture does not forbid it then it is permissible. The regulative principle is, if Scripture does not command it then it is forbidden. The normative principle is for all of life whereas the regulative principle is for faith and worship. Please see the Confession of Faith, chapter 20, section 2, for a clear statement on this difference.​

Your reticence to disclose notwithstanding, I will contact all of the PCA Pastors serving in your vicinity and survey their views on the topic.

...after 4 unanswered requests to you for some, I must conclude that you concur.
Asked, demurred, and answered:
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/is-it-sinful-to-sing-hymns-other-than-the-psalms-in-worship.7904094/page-4#post-69718336

Tolle lege.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jimmyjimmy

Pardoned Rebel
Supporter
Jan 2, 2015
11,556
5,728
USA
✟234,973.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
I would simply like to confirm that a PCA Pastor in good standing agrees with your claim that the principles of the RPW are found wanting in Scripture:

The normative principle is, if Scripture does not forbid it then it is permissible. The regulative principle is, if Scripture does not command it then it is forbidden. The normative principle is for all of life whereas the regulative principle is for faith and worship. Please see the Confession of Faith, chapter 20, section 2, for a clear statement on this difference.​

Your reticence to disclose notwithstanding, I will contact all of the PCA Pastors serving in your vicinity and survey their views on the topic.


Asked, and answered:
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/is-it-sinful-to-sing-hymns-other-than-the-psalms-in-worship.7904094/page-4#post-69718336

Tolle lege.

Please survey them, and get back to me with a full and detailed report, and while you are at it, check on the PCA elders who don't baptize their own children in favor of "dedicating" them. I've come across some of them too.

Meanwhile, I'll be off "sinning" next Sunday as I sing that dreadful hymn, Rock of Ages, and if I'm especially naughty maybe follow it up with Before the Throne of God Above.
 
Upvote 0

HeraldOfTheHolyOne

יהוה יהוה אל רחום וחנון ארך אפים ורב חסד ואמת
Dec 27, 2013
84
13
California
✟8,380.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Others
Please make your own arguments. I have not the time to read books, especially when I'm already convinced that are not correct.

If you don't have the time to read articles, much less books, don't bother arguing about a theological position. I don't intend to be rude, but you cannot hope to successfully argue against Exclusive Psalmody (which by the way is the original intent of the doctrinal standards the PCA holds to when it says, "singing of psalms with grace in the heart" in WCF ch. 21) or any other doctrinal issue without reading.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AMR
Upvote 0

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,243
✟48,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
"In the end it comes down to this: no temple, no sacrifice; no sacrifice, no instrument."

I don't think that this argument is convincing.

Correct me if I misunderstand the argument, but it seems to be saying that instrumentation in worship was part of the temple worship system and because the temple worship system has been abolished (or fulfilled - depending on which verbiage you prefer) then the use of instrumentation has also passed away. Here's my response:

  1. I think this is a misunderstanding of how to apply the Law. It is not the case that the Law no longer applies to us. All of OT Law, including what is sometimes compartmentalized as "ceremonial law" (the Bible itself makes no such distinction), directly applies to us today. The question is "how does it apply?"

  2. Jesus Christ is our hermeneutical key for applying the Law. Because of Jesus Christ the applications of some laws are significantly altered. The applications of others are not. Two examples follow:
    1. Laws about animal sacrifice are significantly altered through Jesus Christ. To be sure, a priesthood is still required for us to approach God and sacrifices are still necessary for atonement. But in Jesus we have a better priest and better sacrifice. So the Levitical priesthood is fulfilled in Jesus and so are all the sacrifices.
    2. A law like "do not murder" is not significantly altered. When this law passes through the hermeneutical filter of the cross it emerges on the other side basically unchanged. We are still called to revere human life, protect it, and refrain from all damage to human life.
  3. The temple of God still exists. Jesus Christ is our better temple and the body of the church itself is the fulfillment of the temple of God. As such, all Scripture in the OT relating to the temple should be applied to us with this understanding.

  4. That sacrifices by the hands of the Levites were required in the OT still applies, but is significantly altered because of Jesus. He is our priest who offers himself as our sacrifice. Therefore animal sacrifices and the Levitcal priesthood are fulfilled in him. It is utterly incorrect to say that there is no sacrifice. How can we approach God without a sacrifice? So if the OT sacrifices were accompanied by instruments, how much more should our better sacrifice be accompanied by even greater musical expressions?

  5. That instrumentation was commanded in the OT still applies, but it is very hard to see how this command is altered by Jesus. The command to use instruments in worship is more similar to a command like "do not bear false witness". The work of Christ as our priest and as the temple of God does nothing to alter the meaning of these commands.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: jimmyjimmy
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jimmyjimmy

Pardoned Rebel
Supporter
Jan 2, 2015
11,556
5,728
USA
✟234,973.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
If you don't have the time to read articles, much less books, don't bother arguing about a theological position. I don't intend to be rude, but you cannot hope to successfully argue against Exclusive Psalmody (which by the way is the original intent of the doctrinal standards the PCA holds to when it says, "singing of psalms with grace in the heart" in WCF ch. 21) or any other doctrinal issue without reading.

I've read the Bible more times through than you are years old. It's not there, so I'm not going to spend my precious time reading someone weaving together a doctrine that is nonexistent in the pages of scripture.

The PCA does not hold to excessive Psalmody, so I guess the entire denomination is in willful sin and apostate or you are wrong. Hmmmmmmmm.
 
Upvote 0

HeraldOfTheHolyOne

יהוה יהוה אל רחום וחנון ארך אפים ורב חסד ואמת
Dec 27, 2013
84
13
California
✟8,380.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Others
I've read the Bible more times through than you are years old. It's not there, so I'm not going to spend my precious time reading someone weaving together a doctrine that is nonexistent in the pages of scripture.

The PCA does not hold to excessive Psalmody, so I guess the entire denomination is in willful sin and apostate or you are wrong. Hmmmmmmmm.

Discounting my age is not an argument against my position. It's great to hear you've read through the entire Bible almost 25 times now. Does your reading the Bible that many times secure you from any error in understanding? We're all human and prone to error in understanding, no matter how old we are or how many times we've read Scripture (although reading it over frequently is a great thing!). I don't think that attitude/approach is good, especially when determining something as important as our obedience to God in worship.

Your refusal to consider the actual arguments of exclusive psalmodists in books will only serve to weaken your argument for the use of hymns (contra-EP). Even if you disagree, you may find that reading through some things on the subject will be helpful to you. Who knows, perhaps you might change your viewpoint on the subject (as I did maybe 6+ months ago after wrestling through the issue).

I would not characterize the PCA as apostate. I am a member of a PCA congregation and hope to someday serve as a Pastor in a PCA church, MNA planter, or as a Navy Chaplain. Yes I disagree with the use of hymns, but I still love our denomination and want to see it continue to grow and reform to biblical patterns of worship.
 
Upvote 0

jimmyjimmy

Pardoned Rebel
Supporter
Jan 2, 2015
11,556
5,728
USA
✟234,973.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Discounting my age is not an argument against my position. It's great to hear you've read through the entire Bible almost 25 times now. Does your reading the Bible that many times secure you from any error in understanding? We're all human and prone to error in understanding, no matter how old we are or how many times we've read Scripture (although reading it over frequently is a great thing!). I don't think that attitude/approach is good, especially when determining something as important as our obedience to God in worship.

Your refusal to consider the actual arguments of exclusive psalmodists in books will only serve to weaken your argument for the use of hymns (contra-EP). Even if you disagree, you may find that reading through some things on the subject will be helpful to you. Who knows, perhaps you might change your viewpoint on the subject (as I did maybe 6+ months ago after wrestling through the issue).

I would not characterize the PCA as apostate. I am a member of a PCA congregation and hope to someday serve as a Pastor in a PCA church, MNA planter, or as a Navy Chaplain. Yes I disagree with the use of hymns, but I still love our denomination and want to see it continue to grow and reform to biblical patterns of worship.

I mean no offense, and you will understand this when you are older, but I won't get into debates (of this nature) with anyone under 30.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

HeraldOfTheHolyOne

יהוה יהוה אל רחום וחנון ארך אפים ורב חסד ואמת
Dec 27, 2013
84
13
California
✟8,380.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Others
I don't think that this argument is convincing.

Correct me if I misunderstand the argument, but it seems to be saying that instrumentation in worship was part of the temple worship system and because the temple worship system has been abolished (or fulfilled - depending on which verbiage you prefer) then the use of instrumentation has also passed away. Here's my response:

  1. I think this is a misunderstanding of how to apply the Law. It is not the case that the Law no longer applies to us. All of OT Law, including what is sometimes compartmentalized as "ceremonial law" (the Bible itself makes no such distinction), directly applies to us today. The question is "how does it apply?"

  2. Jesus Christ is our hermeneutical key for applying the Law. Because of Jesus Christ the applications of some laws are significantly altered. The applications of others are not. Two examples follow:
    1. Laws about animal sacrifice are significantly altered through Jesus Christ. To be sure, a priesthood is still required for us to approach God and sacrifices are still necessary for atonement. But in Jesus we have a better priest and better sacrifice. So the Levitical priesthood is fulfilled in Jesus and so are all the sacrifices.
    2. A law like "do not murder" is not significantly altered. When this law passes through the hermeneutical filter of the cross it emerges on the other side basically unchanged. We are still called to revere human life, protect it, and refrain from all damage to human life.
  3. The temple of God still exists. Jesus Christ is our better temple and the body of the church itself is the fulfillment of the temple of God. As such, all Scripture in the OT relating to the temple should be applied to us with this understanding.

  4. That sacrifices by the hands of the Levites were required in the OT still applies, but is significantly altered because of Jesus. He is our priest who offers himself as our sacrifice. Therefore animal sacrifices and the Levitcal priesthood are fulfilled in him. It is utterly incorrect to say that there is no sacrifice. How can we approach God without a sacrifice? So if the OT sacrifices were accompanied by instruments, how much more should our better sacrifice be accompanied by even greater musical expressions?

  5. That instrumentation was commanded in the OT still applies, but it is very hard to see how this command is altered by Jesus. The command to use instruments in worship is more similar to a command like "do not bear false witness". The work of Christ as our priest and as the temple of God does nothing to alter the meaning of these commands.

In response to #1 especially: This is not in line with the historic Reformed understanding of the Law. There is by necessary implication a division in the Mosaic Law between civil, ceremonial, and moral laws (cf. WCF 19.3-4 & relevant biblical texts used in support).

I agree with much of what you've stated. The ceremonial aspects of Old Testament life - the Temple, priesthood, sacrifices, et al, find their culmination in Jesus Christ and His redemptive work. Those Old Testament things foresignified what Christ was coming to do, functioning as types & shadows of what was to come. However, given the regulative principle of worship, musical instruments are only prescribed to Levites functioning in the Temple's worship, as previously shown (if I am not mistaken). Though the New Temple has come (Christ, and the Church), a Greater Priest has come (Christ), a new priesthood is here (the priesthood of all believers), there is nevertheless no transference of a musical instrument mandate from Levites functioning in the Old Testament temple, to the New Covenant administration and its worship of God. And since it is not commanded for this covenantal administration, was unique to Mosaic Temple worship (which Temple, sacrifices, priesthood, etc. is fulfilled in Christ and His Church), and was unique to a specific group of families and not for all the people at all times, I conclude that most likely we should not be using musical instruments in corporate worship.


I can understand this thread coming out of the OPC or CRCNA, but not the PCA. I saddens me to see that people in my denomination hold these views.

The OPC has largely also taken a stance against exclusive psalmody, although both the PCA and OPC permit congregations to practice it. I wish exclusive psalmody didn't sadden you, brother. While this thread has been dealing with a really touchy subject (whether hymn-singing is sinful), there is a positive case for singing the Psalms. The Psalms are the very Word of God and are, by their very nature, of a superior class to any hymns we could write. As the Word of God, the Psalms are one of the means of grace God appointed for His people. They teach us about God's creation, man's fall into sin, His Son Jesus Christ, Jesus' humiliation, crucifixion, burial, resurrection, ascension, exaltation, the sending of the Spirit, and the coming judgment more perfectly than any hymn ever could. They give us a more intimate picture of Him than our hymns can, because they are inspired by His Spirit. The Trinity hymnal is not. The Psalms are not only sufficient for the Church's worship, since they are God's songs written for us and for our instruction, but they are also superior to anything we could write. Frankly, I'm perplexed why the PCA has almost altogether abandoned the practice of singing the psalms. What saddens me is the neglect of God's hymnal in our churches, though I recognize that mine is the extreme minority position in the PCA.
 
Upvote 0