Is it really a choice?

[elephunky]

We are told that God wanted us to choose to follow him, to believe in him and to obey him...Then we are told that if we dont we will go to hell. Doesnt really sound like a choice to me.

Why then would it be called free choice and free will when there is a consequence to CHOOSING the other path?

Its like saying to a kid, you can listen to the story if you want...but if you dont you will spend the rest of the week in detention.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

But, it's a 'choice' that is offered to very few. Simply put it's the choice between waking up in the Kingdom, or just not waking up. Many who think they have this choice really don't. Only those who God calls are given the choice. Also, the wages of sin is death, not eternal life in torment.

owg

 

[dies-l]

All choices have consequences. The choice to choose or reject Christ is no difference. I have the free choice to jump off of a freeway overpass, but if I choose to do so, I will be injured or killed. I have the choice to spend all day, sitting around watching TV, but if I do so, I will probably end up poor, fat, and out of shape. So, I am not sure why the consequences of our spiritual choices should be viewed differently.

 

[elephunky]

Those things you listed are common sense.

Its not lThe things you listed are common sense.

Dont forget that without the words of others, we wouldnt even know of his existence, so I believe it to be a different situation

 

[god's_pawn]

ultimately, the choice does exist. it is seemingly a no-brainer but it nonetheless exists. yes it seems as though it should be obvious which one is better, yet you will discover that there are litterally millions of people who take what we believe is the right choice. that is the key right there. it is the choice that we believe is the right choice. not everyone even believes God exists. if He doesn't exist, then why "follow" Him? It is only through our faith in Christ that we make the right choice. of course, there are those who do beleive in God, but still make the wrong choice. I believe this is do to some sort of short sightedness. thye don't want to change their lifestyle and take all of the costs that following Christ in this world requires of us. it's like having fun now and paying later, rather than, working now, and being rewarded later.

 

[HuntingMan]

We are told that God wanted us to choose to follow him, to believe in him and to obey him...Then we are told that if we dont we will go to hell. Doesnt really sound like a choice to me.

Why then would it be called free choice and free will when there is a consequence to CHOOSING the other path?

Its like saying to a kid, you can listen to the story if you want...but if you dont you will spend the rest of the week in detention.

sure its a choice.
Lots of kids in detention knowing theyd go there if they chose to do wrong.
Lots of men in prison who knew full well what the consequences would be if they broke the law.

 

[elephunky]

People believe in what they feel to be right, it doesnt necessarily come from selfishness or not wanting to change. Muslims think they are right, islamics think they are right, the jews think they are right, the buddhists think they are right. People go with what they feel are right.

Does the bible not state that believing is the factor to being saved? (in response to your last bit)

 

[elephunky]

Huntingman - I do believe that in some cases, with people who end up in detention centers and prisons - it wasnt a concious decision they made.

 

[god's_pawn]

People believe in what they feel to be right, it doesnt necessarily come from selfishness or not wanting to change. Muslims think they are right, islamics think they are right, the jews think they are right, the buddhists think they are right. People go with what they feel are right.

Does the bible not state that believing is the factor to being saved? (in response to your last bit)

i think you're responding to me but i'm not sure. either way i'll respond as if you were.

that is, in essence, what i was saying. it's not about people willingly making a wrong choice, as it is not believing that that is indeed a valid choice to make. i think a large majority of those who are not Cristians believe that when they die, existance ceases. thus to make the lifestyle changes that Christ requires of us seems foolish. if ti's foolish, why make it in the first place?

 

[god's_pawn]

Huntingman - I do believe that in some cases, with people who end up in detention centers and prisons - it wasnt a concious decision they made.

this is indeed true. nonetheless, there are still those who make those decisions in the full knowledge of the consequences. perhaps they think that the pleasure of the act committed is worth the following punishment. I'm not sure how one can assimilate that to hell though...

 

[elephunky]

I thnk a lot of it has to do with what they have been through

 

[god's_pawn]

I thnk a lot of it has to do with what they have been through

indeed i'm sure that plays a role in their ultimate decission

 

[elephunky]

It plays a major role in who they are, what they have become and why they do what they do.

 

[elephunky]

Actually, the murder example isnt really all that valid.

Because that would mean saying "I will let you murder him but Jail is for you as a result." pretty sure we dont encourage murder. But we do encourage peopleto make their own minds up about God

 

[Adoniram]

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life."

Since the time of Adam and Eve, and their choice in the Garden to disobey God, all mankind has been on one path: that which leads to death and hell. There is no choice in this. It is simply the path on which all are born. God, in his mercy, said have faith in me and I will put you on a new path: to eternal life. It's not really a matter of choosing one path or the other, man is already on the bad path. But if one decides to honor God, he will put them on the right path.

Do nothing...make no choice...and remain on the path that leads to destruction.

John 5:24
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

 

[elephunky]

If there is no choice, then why are we told we have a choice?

 

[Emmy]

Dear dGirl1986. It is not just your choice, it is following a loving advice from our Heavenly Father. What is it really? 1) Love God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. He made us in His image, He loves us, and He wants us back again. 2) Love your neighbour, all others, and each other, as you love yourself. Treat all others, as you would like others to treat you. To return to our original home, into God`s Kingdom with many mansions, we have to be, as God likes us to be: Love for God and love for our brothers and sisters. Would you feel at ease in God`s Kingdom, where only LOVE for God and each other was the norm? You are right, dGirl, we have the choice to return to God, or NOT. God does not force us in any way. Yet Hell, as you wrongly quote, is for Satan and his followers, those of us who do not want to return to God, will find themselves in Outer Darkness, Without God`s Love or Light. We have years to learn to love, as God wants us to love. I say this humbly and with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[dies-l]

My belief, and I know that this puts me at odds with some of my conservative brothers and sisters, is that condemnation comes from rejecting Christ. I believe that if a person truly pursues Christ, and ends up on the wrong "path", then God's grace will inevitably cover that person. So, if a person's pursuit for Christ causes them to become a devout Buddhist, then I could accept the possibility that person will be saved. However, if a person rejects Christ, then God is not going to force that person to spend eternity with Him.

So, if we consider in one example, a Buddhist, who knows in his heart that Jesus is the way to eternal life and decides that he finds the path of Buddhism to be more to his liking anyway and so continues in Buddhism, that person has made the choice to reject Christ. I do not believe that God is going to make that person spend eternity with Jesus, who he wouldn't like anyway, as made evident by his choice.

In another example, a Buddhist who sees the Truth of God all around him, which fills him with a desire to grow deeper in that Truth. However, because of his circumstances (or even perhaps legitimate ignorance, as opposed to rebellion), the only "path" that he can see that will bring him deeper into that Truth is by being a more devout Buddhist, I believe that God, in His Grace and mercy, will honor that person's desire and will provide a means to salvation.

 

[HuntingMan]

Dies3l

ouch.
I can see why you might think your views would not go over too well with those of us who believe that Jesus meant it when He said that He is the ONLY way to the Father.

If your views were accurate, then arent WE sending people to hell by spreading the gospel and bringing them Christ so they can reject Him ?

 

[HuntingMan]

Huntingman - I do believe that in some cases, with people who end up in detention centers and prisons - it wasnt a concious decision they made.

Agreed.
But because of mans default state of sin we ALL are headed in that direction and only if we are taken off that path by the blood of our Lord Jesus are we saved from that destiny.
We are a fallen race and headed for punishment just because of what we are.
God in His graciousness has offered His own Son so that we dont have to pay a price that we already owe by the time we figure out what is going on.

So my previous example was really quite limited and only for a point since man isnt often headed for prison simply because he exists.