Is it really a choice?

Tavita said:

I didn't say that. I was responding to people saying that UR's have a false sense of security and are apt to sin more readily.

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I'm not saying anything like that about UR's - I'm speaking to the
false doctrine itself towards the LOST who are given that false
sense of spiritual security in a message that espouses that they're
"already reconciled to God" and "going to heaven without being
born again and living for Christ here".
As if you can somehow undo this once you step into the next
life.

Actually, it says there is NO condemnation (punishment) for those in
Christ. So technically, a UR shouldn't even say there's punishment
for an unsaved person who rejected salvation, they're already reconciled
to God & already guaranteed their spot in heaven - according to
1 Cor. 3, Christians only get judged on works/service for Christ.
Not "sin" which was already washed away by Jesus' blood.

So it would be no wonder why a lost soul would think they're secure
with UR theology & don't NEED Christianity to be of God.
And no wonder why they would think, "I'm a good person, God
loves me for who I am".
Again, it defeats the gospel itself "you MUST be born again".

That's true of all christians, whether they believe in eternal torment or not. But then again, I know of many christians (whether they believe in UR or not) who struggle through periods of sin, sometimes for many years, and yet they really are born again believers. Sometimes the fire of God's Holy Spirit takes time in dealing with sin in a christian's life.

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yes this is true. But even so, they do usually admit things are sin
and do feel convicted for it continually.
I'm speaking more of the types who deny that obvious things are
sin, feel no conviction for continuing in it and promote it as good.
Those are more who I refer to in not knowing the Lord at all -
that's the fruit that is being displayed.

Nadine:
That does more to prove people's trampling of God's grace -
which UR promotes.

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I don't understand this statement, especially after the last one. What's the trampling of God's grace by those who promote endless torment got to do with UR?

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In people who claim CHristianity & accept eternal condemnation/ separation from Christ eternally, yet live carnally as a pattern, they
are not showing that they're a Christian becuz of 'fear of torment' -
but are instead displaying an abuse of God's grace.

The same can be said of lost souls who convert - who were taught
eternal condemnation. For them to continue in sin or live in
periods of defeat to sin is showing a display of
trampling God's grace moreso than "fear".

The doctrine of "everybody's saved" is to say that you CAN live in
chronic states of unrepented sin & evil (namely rejection of the Saviour)- your entire life and still get heaven like the rest of the Christians get who lived in obedience.
Sorry but I find that an abuse of God's grace to preach that.

Could you also tell me where the evidence is that UR promotes a sinful lifestyle?

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The above statement hits on this.
Again, a lost soul doesn't know God or what it's like to know God.
All they know is how to live their life their way and they generally
dislike God's commands & principles; they rebel against them.

So telling this lost soul who hasn't experienced God like Christians have,
that they can reject God in this life, live how they're already living
and they STILL get heaven, I don't see how that leads them to seeing
their dire need for a Saviour???
What they're lacking and what they could have IF they were born again.
What you teach is that they ALREADY HAVE EVERYTHING a Christian gets
only the Christian has to suffer in obeying God while they don't.

Sorry I just don't see how it promotes salvation or obedience.

You might as well tell 2 children that they'll both get a candybar
but you need the house cleaned:
so tell 2 selfish kids that they both get a candybar anyways & who's
going to opt to clean the house?

If you clean the entire house, the other one got the same thing
you did for nothing. I see little incentive for a selfish kid in his
natural state.

It is a flawed analogy in some aspects, but hopefully you get the general concept of UR's flaw when dealing with the natural state of man who
is in rebellion towards God.

Nadiine said:

I won't even take a pedicure, so . . . no thanks

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What's the matter? Got troll toes?

Tavita said:

So now you want to negate what Christ accomplished on the cross?

He said 'It is finished'... HIS work is finished. He IS the Redeemer of all mankind.

It may not 'appear' that He has redeemed all mankind already, but that was is His work on the cross.. that's what we must have faith in... that is the point of being given the ministry of reconciliation.. to go out into the world and let them KNOW they ARE redeemed.

Of course our 'flesh' is at emnity with God... and that part of us that is still in the flesh is still at enmity with Him... until we DIE to the flesh that is within us.

From HIS point of view.. everyone was redeemed by His sacrifice. A study of the law of redemption, the peace offerings, the sin offerings, the trespass offerings, the meal offerings, the burnt offerings, etc, would show you what His work entailed for mankind... all mankind... ALL men are lost.

If you want to say that man's freewill negates what He has done, then your God is not all powerful and all loving. Jesus failed miserably because He could not get past man's will.




As pointed out in other threads, condemnation does not equate endless torment.

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Where did Nadiine say she was negating what Christ accomplished on the cross? UR promotes that view more than anything else, since you have to go to hell anyway and do something, like having your sins burned off, to atone for your sinful lives and satisfy God's wrath. Now UR's typically don't use that language, but that's what's going on. You are rejecting what Christ did, preaching that you will go to hell to be "purified of your sin by Holy fire which is not physical but spiritual, and then be released as a cleansed being into the gates of heaven.

Funny thing is not one of you can come up with any scriptures in context that back up this theory of yours. It's the person who says you have to go to hell when you die and have your sins burned off and be purified that's negating what Christ did on the cross, and from where I sit that's the UR camp. But you guys don't even want to do that, because you all claim Christ as savior. If you had any real faith in this UR theology, you wouldn't claim Christ as savior because you don't want His sacrifice to atone for your sins, you want to go to hell when you die and do it yourself. So on the one hand you're Christians because you claim Christ as your savior, but when you teach UR theology to others you tell them basically that they don't need Christ. You have a massive contradiction in your theology, but you probably write that off as a detail that doesn't need explaining once you have faith.

UR is problematic on many levels. It just doesn't line up with what scripture clearly teaches. Also, the people who believe in ET don't do so for their own benefit so they can justify their sins as being not that bad. The people who typicallly believe in ET know how bad their sins are because it took a perfect, sinless person, Jesus Christ, who had never sinned once in His life to pay for their sins. We know how serious our sins are and what the cost was to both an innocenet Jesus Christ and to God Himself. We don't promote ET because it makes us feel better about ourselves or our sins, we teach ET because that is Biblical truth.

Zecryphon said:

What's the matter? Got troll toes?

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*SLAP*

no, I just hate feet altogether & I wouldn't get near anybody's.

What in the world is UR and ET?

Rick Otto said:

How bad do want it?
You're not gonna want fries with that, are ya?

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Okay, now I am utterly confused about the point you were trying to make.

dGirl1986 said:

my ex had a wierd thing about feet, he didnt like anyones feeet near him, he insisted on wearing socks in bed and only have a foot massage when wearing socks lol

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lol
ya, I have a foot thing - I mean, I like the whole toenail polish thing & even toe rings look kool. I love ankle bracelets too - I use to have a toe ring but I lost it along w/ my ankle bracelet.

But I just don't want anyone doing my feet but me and I won't
go near people's feet. yik.

& how funny about the sox - I wear anklets all the time around the
house and to bed lol (but not becuz of a dislike of feet - just
keeping warm =)

Nadiine said:

I'm not saying anything like that about UR's - I'm speaking to the
false doctrine itself towards the LOST who are given that false
sense of spiritual security in a message that espouses that they're
"already reconciled to God" and "going to heaven without being
born again and living for Christ here".
As if you can somehow undo this once you step into the next
life.

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They are already reconciled to God... from God's side, but they still have to appropriate that belief in His sacrifice.

You seem to think that UR's preach a gospel of universalism. This is not true. We preach the gospel, not universalism. I don't remember ever preaching to anyone about eternal torment or UR, we are to preach Christ and Him crucified. I think I've said that many times before. I would never tell an unbeliever they are already saved. They are not, they WILL be, but right at that time, they are not. The call is still to repent and believe on the gospel.

Actually, it says there is NO condemnation (punishment) for those in
Christ. So technically, a UR shouldn't even say there's punishment
for an unsaved person who rejected salvation, they're already reconciled
to God & already guaranteed their spot in heaven - according to
1 Cor. 3, Christians only get judged on works/service for Christ.
Not "sin" which was already washed away by Jesus' blood

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.

As I said above, we don't preach universalism, we preach Christ. If a person rejects Christ in one particular instance does that leave out all hope for them in the future? Sure many die in their sins, but I do not believe death can stop God. God's grace does not finish after death... if you believe so, then show me where it says so in the scriptures.

So it would be no wonder why a lost soul would think they're secure
with UR theology & don't NEED Christianity to be of God.
And no wonder why they would think, "I'm a good person, God
loves me for who I am".
Again, it defeats the gospel itself "you MUST be born again".

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Of course you must be 'born again'. Nadiine, you keep assuming beliefs of universalism that aren't true, and when you are told differently it's like there's a veil over your mind, you don't hear it. No UR would tell an unsaved person they don't have to worry about repentance and being born again, because until they do, they're not.

All mankind has 'already' been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb... He paved the way, but it must be appropriated. My issue with you is that you say men are not redeemed UNTIL they are born again. God's side has already been fulfilled, it was done on the cross... man still has to be 'saved' by repentance and confession.

yes this is true. But even so, they do usually admit things are sin
and do feel convicted for it continually.
I'm speaking more of the types who deny that obvious things are
sin, feel no conviction for continuing in it and promote it as good.
Those are more who I refer to in not knowing the Lord at all -
that's the fruit that is being displayed.

Click to expand...

I agree with you here.

In people who claim CHristianity & accept eternal condemnation/ separation from Christ eternally, yet live carnally as a pattern, they
are not showing that they're a Christian becuz of 'fear of torment' -
but are instead displaying an abuse of God's grace.

The same can be said of lost souls who convert - who were taught
eternal condemnation. For them to continue in sin or live in
periods of defeat to sin is showing a display of
trampling God's grace moreso than "fear".

Click to expand...

True.

The doctrine of "everybody's saved" is to say that you CAN live in
chronic states of unrepented sin & evil (namely rejection of the Saviour)- your entire life and still get heaven like the rest of the Christians get who lived in obedience.
Sorry but I find that an abuse of God's grace to preach that.

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I would too. ALL mankind has been redeemed, but they will still 'eventually' be saved.
I'm sorry that I've said in the past that I believed all men are already saved. I was wrong to say that. I needed to get my theology straight. I kept using 'saved', and 'redeemed' and 'bought with a price' to all mean the same thing. I've been studying further and learning more. But I will always believe in the Great Hope... that God's will and plan is for all men to be saved. And I know He is all powerful, and believe that man's will.. whether they think it's free or not, will not be able to stand against His will. I'm not saying He will force people. That is against His very nature and character.
He has declared His will time and again in the scriptures.

The above statement hits on this.
Again, a lost soul doesn't know God or what it's like to know God.
All they know is how to live their life their way and they generally
dislike God's commands & principles; they rebel against them.

So telling this lost soul who hasn't experienced God like Christians have,
that they can reject God in this life, live how they're already living
and they STILL get heaven, I don't see how that leads them to seeing
their dire need for a Saviour???
What they're lacking and what they could have IF they were born again.
What you teach is that they ALREADY HAVE EVERYTHING a Christian gets
only the Christian has to suffer in obeying God while they don't.

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I don't remember ever hearing a UR say they do the things you just said. No-one ever tells unbelievers they already have everything.

Zecryphon said:

Where did Nadiine say she was negating what Christ accomplished on the cross? UR promotes that view more than anything else, since you have to go to hell anyway and do something, like having your sins burned off, to atone for your sinful lives and satisfy God's wrath. Now UR's typically don't use that language, but that's what's going on. You are rejecting what Christ did, preaching that you will go to hell to be "purified of your sin by Holy fire which is not physical but spiritual, and then be released as a cleansed being into the gates of heaven.

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To say she negated it was an overstatement, and I apologize. I've already tried to clear that up with her. My issue with her was in her saying that men are not redeemed by the blood of the Lamb UNTIL they are born again, and that simply is not true. Christ redeemed all mankind on the cross two thousand years ago. It still needs to be appropriated, one still needs to repent and confess faith in Christ and be born again.

You can say what you like about my beliefs, I'm not going to attack yours. I believe the same as you only I believe all men will be saved, not just some. I believe in His all encompassing sacrifice to save us from sin and death, for every man. For even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive. (YLT)

We've all tried, time and again, to tell you our beliefs but you still don't hear us. But I know one day you will. You're a smart man and I've seen God work in your life in the last couple of years just by seeing how He's corrected your beliefs about other biblical concepts.

Funny thing is not one of you can come up with any scriptures in context that back up this theory of yours. It's the person who says you have to go to hell when you die and have your sins burned off and be purified that's negating what Christ did on the cross, and from where I sit that's the UR camp. But you guys don't even want to do that, because you all claim Christ as savior. If you had any real faith in this UR theology, you wouldn't claim Christ as savior because you don't want His sacrifice to atone for your sins, you want to go to hell when you die and do it yourself. So on the one hand you're Christians because you claim Christ as your savior, but when you teach UR theology to others you tell them basically that they don't need Christ. You have a massive contradiction in your theology, but you probably write that off as a detail that doesn't need explaining once you have faith.

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I'm not going to get into UR with you in this thread, Zecryphon. But as I said before, you haven't heard anything because you don't want to hear it.

UR is problematic on many levels. It just doesn't line up with what scripture clearly teaches. Also, the people who believe in ET don't do so for their own benefit so they can justify their sins as being not that bad. The people who typicallly believe in ET know how bad their sins are because it took a perfect, sinless person, Jesus Christ, who had never sinned once in His life to pay for their sins. We know how serious our sins are and what the cost was to both an innocenet Jesus Christ and to God Himself. We don't promote ET because it makes us feel better about ourselves or our sins, we teach ET because that is Biblical truth.

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I think you'll find UR's (this is not about unitarians) are very serious about sin in their lives. Obviously, again, you haven't heard a word we've said. Hopefully one day you will open your heart to the truth of God's love, compassion, and mercy for all. It's way more biblical than you can imagine. There are many truths in scripture that don't come alive to us until God gives us a revelation, until then we are blind to it. You can probably see other truths that I don't see. Just don't whack something off as being 'heresy' until you've knocked, searched and asked for the truth with an open heart and delved into the scriptures with an open mind willing to learn something you've never seen or learned before about God and His purposes and character.

daydreamergurl15 said:

What in the world is UR and ET?

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ET - Eternal Torment

UR - Universal Reconciliation (universalism)

Tavita said:

UR - Universal Reconciliation (universalism)

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IOW - live like Satan, spit in God's face and get heaven
when it's all over!!!

God's grace is so wonderful isn't it!!,
He's all kool wit it

Nadiine said:

IOW - live like Satan, spit in God's face and get heaven
when it's all over!!!

God's grace is so wonderful isn't it!!,
He's all kool wit it

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Did you read my post #170 to you?

Tavita said:

Did you read my post #170 to you?

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this is what you state:

I think I've said that many times before. I would never tell an unbeliever they are already saved. They are not, they WILL be, but right at that time, they are not. The call is still to repent and believe on the gospel.

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Tavita, what the heck is the difference?
They WILL be? That means the same thing.

It doesn't matter WHAT you do - how you live - who you deny &
reject: you WILL BE SAVED and never enter condemnation for
any of it.

If you read 1 Cor. 3 you'll see that Christians don't get judged on
SIN - they get judged on service/works and the motive behind it.

To tell people they'll "get punishment for awhile" until they repent
is just negating scripture that God is forcing you to be saved.
SUFFER torment until you repent & admit I'm God.

What idiot wouldn't repent once they see their torment?
THAT IS NOT FAITH. and FAITH is the vehicle for salvation.
& what of those who never repent? I think it's naive to think
people will love God just becuz of punishment to change.

Look at Revelation; the more judgment God sends, the more
they rebel - the same is said by God about Israel.
He said "why punish them more? they'll only rebel more".
(paraphrase).
The problem is that you ASSUME everyone will love & want God
when the bible says just the opposite.

& People don't "pay for sin" when Christ already paid it on the cross.
That's the entire point of God's grace - so we bypass any condemnation.
(temporary or permanent).

Nadiine said:

this is what you state:


Tavita, what the heck is the difference?
They WILL be? That means the same thing.

It doesn't matter WHAT you do - how you live - who you deny &
reject: you WILL BE SAVED and never enter condemnation for
any of it.

If you read 1 Cor. 3 you'll see that Christians don't get judged on
SIN - they get judged on service/works and the motive behind it.

To tell people they'll "get punishment for awhile" until they repent
is just negating scripture that God is forcing you to be saved.
SUFFER torment until you repent & admit I'm God.

What idiot wouldn't repent once they see their torment?
THAT IS NOT FAITH. and FAITH is the vehicle for salvation.
& what of those who never repent? I think it's naive to think
people will love God just becuz of punishment to change.

Look at Revelation; the more judgment God sends, the more
they rebel - the same is said by God about Israel.
He said "why punish them more? they'll only rebel more".
(paraphrase).
The problem is that you ASSUME everyone will love & want God
when the bible says just the opposite.

& People don't "pay for sin" when Christ already paid it on the cross.
That's the entire point of God's grace - so we bypass any condemnation.
(temporary or permanent).

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UGGHHH!! I give up!!

Haven't heard a word in all these years!

Nadiine said:

IOW - live like Satan, spit in God's face and get heaven
when it's all over!!!

God's grace is so wonderful isn't it!!,
He's all kool wit it

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What was that I heard you say about christians who keep on in their sin?... didn't I hear you say something about being able to judge them by their fruit?... better take a look at your own, huh?

btw... Jesus did drink wine.

There's some speculation that "calamus" was what we call "cannabis" & was used in incense, not bongs - so the picture is... unscripturalin that sense, at least.
lol
God put entheogenic plants on earth for a purpose, I assume.
Nice to see a picture of Jesus smiling, for a change.

Tavita said:

UGGHHH!! I give up!!

Haven't heard a word in all these years!

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I think the same can be said of you couldn't it?

Rick Otto said:

There's some speculation that "calamus" was what we call "cannabis" & was used in incense, not bongs - so the picture is... unscripturalin that sense, at least.
lol
God put entheogenic plants on earth for a purpose, I assume.
Nice to see a picture of Jesus smiling, for a change.

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Well God put night shade on earth for a purpose too; it doesn't mean
we smoke, chew or eat it. . .
& I don't think we want to take this thread into more side issues
on pharmakia (drug use) which is forbidden.

The point of the image was just to show a hippy liberal Jesus that's
all kool with anybody's sins and smiles at all the evil going on down
here; in fact, He enjoys it Himself and can't wait to get them in
the pearly gates.