Is it really a choice?

dies-l · Mar 3, 2009

dGirl1986 said:
People arent chosing hell if they dont believe in it.

I give people more credit than you do. I trust that most people, if given a description of God (love, patience, justice, etc.) and living in a world where these qualities exist only imperfectly, can make some pretty accurate inferences about what the world would be like with no God (no love, no patience, no justice, etc.) and what a world would be like that is centered around God (perfect love, perfect patience, perfect justice, etc.). I believe that if a person is truly seeking those things that are of God, they will find Jesus; if a person is not seeking after their own selfish ambitions, they will not find Jesus. Hell is nothing more than the absence of God's influence, and I believe that it is something that people choose for themselves, because there are things in this world they love more than God and refuse to give those things up.

If you have never done so, I would encourage you to read The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis. Although it is allegorical, I think it does a great job of explaining the reality that many people do choose hell for themselves.

Another book that is not specifically about Hell, but which discusses it in a larger discussion about the afterlife, is Surprised by Hope by N.T. Wright.

Both Wright and Lewis write within the Anglican tradition, and I think that both authors are quite thought-provoking, even if you don't agree with all their theology.

Nadiine · Mar 3, 2009

Zecryphon said:
Of course we don't, because you never cite any sources for your claims. It's a bunch of hearsay. Look at your OP, a bunch of hearsay claims and not one shred of support for any of it. Until we know what your sources are for your information we have no way of proceeding in answering your statements. So do you have sources for your beliefs or are you just going with what you've heard?

I think the OP is basically an opinion only - a summation of salvation?

But honestly, the only way it makes sense in being accurate, is if
the entire world was Christian becuz God forced them to be with
physical & spiritual torments to force them to Himself.
THEN it's a lack of any choice at that point (from a literal standpoint).

Otherwise, it's just a horrible consequence. Clearly not a whole lot of
people either believe in eternal torment or they believe they aren't
going to be the recipient of it becuz they're "good" enough people.

I mean, look at parents who warn their kids not to do something or
something terrible/harmful will happen. Is that force to warn somebody
of something? Becuz that's all I see God doing is giving us warning
of future consequence for our best interest.

And to carry that thought thru, if it IS in fact true about the afterlife
(which it is) - then it would be EVIL for God not to get the warnings
out to us and not to send His people out to lead those destined for
that place to God for eternal life.
Imagine how evil God would be if He didn't do what He's doing.

elephunky · Mar 3, 2009

Zecryphon said:
So if you don't believe in hell, it ceases to exist? Let's try that logic elsewhere. Let's say I don't believe in Iraq, I think it's a made up place. I don't care what evidence you show me that it exists, I think it doesn't. Does Iraq now cease to exist simply because I don't believe in i it?

Im not saying that it ceases to exist. I am pointing out that if you dont believe that something exists, then you are obviously not going to live like it does exist

Zecryphon said:
Evolution does not seek to disprove the existence of God, since evolution never addresses subjects such as: "where did the universe come from?" "What caused the Big Bang?" "Where did we come from" and "What is our purpose?" Since evolution never touches on these subjects it does not exist to disprove God. Now people may be using the theory to try and disprove God, but the do so erroneously. Anybody who has studied science or listened to their findings over the years is apt not to trust them because science is always correcting itself, which means that the previous consensus of the scientific community was wrong.

When I was in school we had 9 planets, absolutely, no doubt about it, 9 planets. Now we have 8. What happened? Science made a mistake. You can not trust a system that is always making corrections to what it believes, because that means, that what it believes at the moment is probably wrong and will be corrected at a later time. Why would anyone put their faith in something like that?

A lot of people do though, and every non christian that I have spoken to who believes in evolution and the big bang will tell you a million reasons why it proves god does not exist.

Zecryphon said:
If the experiences you are relaying are coming from a non-Christian background, and from what it seems from your posts a current non-Christian life, what are you doing with a Christian icon?

Firstly - I am not living a non christian life, I have accepted God as my creator and Christ as my savior, Im just done pretending to agree with teh majority.

Zebra1552 · Mar 3, 2009

dGirl1986 said:
Im not saying that it ceases to exist. I am pointing out that if you dont believe that something exists, then you are obviously not going to live like it does exist

Whether or not you believe that a place exists doesn't mean that you're not fulfilling the conditions of going there by disbelieving its existence.

A lot of people do though, and every non christian that I have spoken to who believes in evolution and the big bang will tell you a million reasons why it proves god does not exist.

Then they clearly are not scientists, nor are they familiar with what evolution is.

Firstly - I am not living a non christian life, I have accepted God as my creator and Christ as my savior, Im just done pretending to agree with teh majority.

Then why are you espousing non-Christian worldview to a bunch of Christians in trying to answer whether or not we have choice?

Armistead · Mar 3, 2009

Most people really don't believe in heaven or hell. Why, they don't have enough info. What info is available is questionable because you have hundreds of religions and doctrines. Still, people are told they must make the right choice, less they burn for eternity.

Let's say God showed himself tomorrow to man, so all man could see, do you think people would react or change. Let's say he takes it a step further and explains clearly what is right so all can clearly know. You would see a mass change. I bet 99% of the people on earth would change.

This was the change that was needed in the first place to make believers, just a handful, but God had to prove he was God.

So Christians teach men have enough info to make a choice. That's easily said in our little corner and culture in the world. It also negates how we were raised, what human influences happen to us before we become adults. People tend to say "once your an adult" you are accountable, forgetting all those experiences in childhood, through the teens made you the adult you are.

So would God send anyone to eternal hell without the total knowledge and proof? Christianity says he will and there is enough proof. However, as stated if God showed up tomorrow and explained in all, every knee would bow and confess, showing there is not enough proof. So is it fair for people to suffer eternal torture for being put in a sinful human body often not able to understand all the different religions and doctrines.

Most atheist don't hate God or concept. Their growth experience, life experiences lead them to that belief. Had they total truth, they would believe.

I didn't accept UR based on what I wanted, it came through prayer and study...trying to understand...then to top it off...it's totally biblical.

Not to make it a UR thread, but anyone can clearly study the churches history and see it's when we accepted a eternal torturing God religion became the evil, wars, torture, ect. This has happened with any religion that teaches eternal torment.

elephunky · Mar 3, 2009

Godschild87 said:
Whether or not you believe that a place exists doesn't mean that you're not fulfilling the conditions of going there by disbelieving its existence.

Then they clearly are not scientists, nor are they familiar with what evolution is.

Then why are you espousing non-Christian worldview to a bunch of Christians in trying to answer whether or not we have choice?

This all started cos I said they wont see it as rejecting God cos as far as they are concerned, you cant reject something that isnt there. Im not saying I agree with what they see or think. Im just aware of it and I can understand why on their part.

Zebra1552 · Mar 3, 2009

This thread isn't about their pov.

Rick Otto · Mar 3, 2009

dGirl1986 said:
We are told that God wanted us to choose to follow him, to believe in him and to obey him...Then we are told that if we dont we will go to hell. Doesnt really sound like a choice to me.

Why then would it be called free choice and free will when there is a consequence to CHOOSING the other path?

Its like saying to a kid, you can listen to the story if you want...but if you dont you will spend the rest of the week in detention.

I hear ya.
"Here,... you can have this fresh baked cookie & this cold glass of milk, or you can grab this red-hot iron skillet with your bare hand. feel free to choose either. No pressure."

elephunky · Mar 4, 2009

Rick Otto said:
I hear ya.
"Here,... you can have this fresh baked cookie & this cold glass of milk, or you can grab this red-hot iron skillet with your bare hand. feel free to choose either. No pressure."

Thank you! Someone who gets what I was originally trying to say lol

elephunky · Mar 4, 2009

Godschild87 said:
This thread isn't about their pov.

It was in response to something you said, and it is somewhat relevant in this discussion.

Nadiine · Mar 4, 2009

Armistead said:
Most people really don't believe in heaven or hell. Why, they don't have enough info. What info is available is questionable because you have hundreds of religions and doctrines. Still, people are told they must make the right choice, less they burn for eternity.

Let's say God showed himself tomorrow to man, so all man could see, do you think people would react or change. Let's say he takes it a step further and explains clearly what is right so all can clearly know. You would see a mass change. I bet 99% of the people on earth would change.

This was the change that was needed in the first place to make believers, just a handful, but God had to prove he was God.

So Christians teach men have enough info to make a choice. That's easily said in our little corner and culture in the world. It also negates how we were raised, what human influences happen to us before we become adults. People tend to say "once your an adult" you are accountable, forgetting all those experiences in childhood, through the teens made you the adult you are.

So would God send anyone to eternal hell without the total knowledge and proof? Christianity says he will and there is enough proof. However, as stated if God showed up tomorrow and explained in all, every knee would bow and confess, showing there is not enough proof. So is it fair for people to suffer eternal torture for being put in a sinful human body often not able to understand all the different religions and doctrines.

Most atheist don't hate God or concept. Their growth experience, life experiences lead them to that belief. Had they total truth, they would believe.

I didn't accept UR based on what I wanted, it came through prayer and study...trying to understand...then to top it off...it's totally biblical.

Not to make it a UR thread, but anyone can clearly study the churches history and see it's when we accepted a eternal torturing God religion became the evil, wars, torture, ect. This has happened with any religion that teaches eternal torment.

Actually this is wrong - but. . you know we've been thru that in plenty
of other threads.
Bottom line: if UR is true, nobody has to repent & be born again
and that's why it's heretical, it directly negates the gospel to
preach another one by lulling people to sleep spiritually.
No need to be born again folks - you can do that when you meet
up with God later on. WRONG.

& by the way, there's plenty of UR's who DO believe in punishment
after death; just that it isn't eternal.
(problem is, they never have a clue how long the punishment lasts.
For all they know, it could be centuries long. . just not "forever").

Anyways, the main point is that eternal condemnation is taught
and has been taught in the Christian faith - obviously even when
many if not most believe it's true, it doesn't get them to salvation.

Equally true is that UR doesn't get them to s alvation either since
it gives them a false sense of security that they get into heaven
ANYWAYS despite how they live.
What's the point?

daydreamergurl15 · Mar 4, 2009

Didn't read it correctly.

dies-l · Mar 4, 2009

dGirl1986 said:
Thank you! Someone who gets what I was originally trying to say lol

I can't speak for everyone else, but I do get what you are trying to say. I used to struggle with similar questions. What I came to understand is that the idea of spending eternity with God is as repulsive to some people as the idea of hell is to others. For someone who his or her desires and addictions more than God, the idea of eternal life with God is a pretty dreadful concept.

I have come to think of the choice, understood biblically, might more appropriately be stated as: being a slave to your own selfish desires or being a slave to God. Either way, we are all slaves to something. The choice comes in that we can choose our master.

Zebra1552 · Mar 4, 2009

dGirl1986 said:
It was in response to something you said, and it is somewhat relevant in this discussion.

Not when their POV isn't upon any factual basis. Feelings are not more important than facts. The fact is, when you reject God, you also reject His promises, which means you reject heaven, which means you choose hell.

Rick Otto · Mar 4, 2009

Nadiine said:
Equally true is that UR doesn't get them to s alvation either since it gives them a false sense of security that they get into heaven ANYWAYS despite how they live.
What's the point?

You make it sound like they simply want license when you say "despite how they live". I don't think they are that consciously licentious. I think the case with people in general is more that that want to believe that that their sins "aren't that bad" and are "more easily forgiven" and are "outweighed by their goodness" or good works.

But you are absolutely right that it's about a false sense of security.

Zecryphon · Mar 4, 2009

Rick Otto said:
You make it sound like they simply want license when you say "despite how they live". I don't think they are that consciously licentious. I think the case with people in general is more that that want to believe that that their sins "aren't that bad" and are "more easily forgiven" and are "outweighed by their goodness" or good works.

But you are absolutely right that it's about a false sense of security.

I don't think Nadiine is saying that these people are licentious or living in chronic sin, but that by following UR, they certainly are free to do so, since they're going to go to hell to work off their sins, what's the point or driving force behind living the Christian life and obeying God's commands? None as far as I can tell. The only thing that would do is cut down your time in hell. Sounds a lot like Purgatory to me. UR to me is based on a lack of faith in Christ and His atoning work on the cross. Every UR proponent I have talked to, including Armistead claims Christ as their savior. But why? If you end up going to hell to work off your sins you don't need Jesus. You're doing it yourself. UR is nothing more than man's desire to play a role in his salvation. What they fail to realize is that once you're in hell, there is no getting out, and they can't provide any scriptures to back up this portion of their belief. I've had this debate with Armistead and others many times and every time I ask for these verses, they can't produce them.

Nadiine · Mar 4, 2009

daydreamergurl15 said:
Didn't read it correctly.

another edit?
lol

Nadiine · Mar 4, 2009

Rick Otto said:
You make it sound like they simply want license when you say "despite how they live". I don't think they are that consciously licentious. I think the case with people in general is more that that want to believe that that their sins "aren't that bad" and are "more easily forgiven" and are "outweighed by their goodness" or good works.

But you are absolutely right that it's about a false sense of security.

Zec's reply is correct,
no I didn't mean that they want license.

& I agree with you & mentioned this in another post, most unsaved
people who do believe in hell, don't think they're going to be there
becuz they think they're the "good people".
They tend to compare themselves to mass murderers, arsonists,
thieves, violent criminals and pedophiles as if that makes them good
on that scale.

We always judge ourselves in the best light we can to justify what
we do, it's our nature.

But I meant it more as, if I'm unsaved and being witnessed to by a
UR, and they tell me that there's no eternal punishment & I'll be with
the Lord forever anyways, I'm going to choose to do what I want
in this life and take heaven too.
Why get saved & live in restriction when I get to the same place
without it?

I told some JW ladies that when they preached this message at my
door. They were shocked that I said that.
Sure, I'd rather just stop existing than give up what I'd have
to give up in this life if there's no lasting punishment.

(we have to remember that we're talking to people who don't have
any relationship with God or know what one feels like -
they certainly won't miss what they've never experienced).

daydreamergurl15 · Mar 4, 2009

Nadiine said:
another edit?
lol

Actually, this time, I didn't want to discuss/debate with the person after I've already wrote my response. Then I re-read the person's post and had no idea what way they were going with their argument so, I just stopped.

Tavita · Mar 4, 2009

Just on the light side....

Ballou (UR preacher.. yes, there are UR preachers!) was riding the circuit in the New Hampshire hills with a Baptist minister one day, arguing theology as they traveled. At one point, the Baptist looked over and said, Brother Ballou, if I were a Universalist and feared not the fires of hell, I could hit you over the head, steal your horse and saddle, and ride away, and Id still go to heaven.
Hosea Ballou looked over at him and said, If you were a Universalist, the idea would never occur to you.

Such is the love of God made so real to one who knows He won't send anyone to a fiery torment endlessly that he is free to want/desire to love and serve God... all the more.

Is it really a choice?

dies-l

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