Is it possible to read patristics and remain Evangelical?

Jesus4Madrid

Orthodox Christian
Jul 21, 2011
1,064
755
✟90,072.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
There are many patristics scholars who started out Protestant and became, as a result of their studies, either Roman Catholic (e.g. Robert Lewis Wilken), Orthodox (e.g. Jaroslav Pelikan), or Anglo-Catholic (e.g. Lightfoot and Chadwick).

Do any low church Protestants study patristics, honestly seek an authentic apostolic Christianity and remain Protestant? How do they reconcile their discovery of the liturgical, sacramental and hierarchical Early Church with their attending a confession that is clearly very different? Of course, liberal Christians may have little interest in returning to "orthodox" Christianity. But I should think that is the ostensible objective of "orthodox Evangelicalism".
 

Knee V

It's phonetic.
Sep 17, 2003
8,415
1,741
41
South Bend, IN
✟100,823.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It's certainly possible. I know of at least one family who are very well-versed in the ante-Nicene fathers (and will even adamantly defend the ever-virginity of the Theotokos), who prefer to remain in an Evangelical church.
 
Upvote 0

Jesus4Madrid

Orthodox Christian
Jul 21, 2011
1,064
755
✟90,072.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
It's certainly possible. I know of at least one family who are very well-versed in the ante-Nicene fathers (and will even adamantly defend the ever-virginity of the Theotokos), who prefer to remain in an Evangelical church.
I don't get this. I never heard much about the Fathers when I was an Evangelical and thus I didn't have much curiosity about them. When I did discover the Fathers, I felt drawn to Orthodox Christianity precisely because the Orthodox Christians I met were versed in the Fathers and could answer my questions.

I don't understand how one can understand the ontological nature of the Early Church and yet attend something completely different unless one doesn't really share the same definition of what the Church is, in which case one really hasn't understood the Fathers.
 
Upvote 0

ProScribe

Well-Known Member
May 20, 2008
6,216
231
41
Granbury,TX
✟7,822.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Do any low church Protestants study patristics, honestly seek an authentic apostolic Christianity and remain Protestant?

if a particular christian wants to do that, they can.

regular study of the church fathers invites you to the the apostolic churches.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ortho_Cat
Upvote 0

Jesus4Madrid

Orthodox Christian
Jul 21, 2011
1,064
755
✟90,072.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
regular study of the church fathers invites you to the the apostolic churches.
This was certainly true for me. If you are right, then the growing interest many Evangelicals have in the Fathers-witness programs in patristics at Weaton College--would suggest a continuous future movement to Orthodoxy (and perhaps also the RC church).

Meanwhile, I think many thinking Evangelicals do not pursue a "regular study of the Church Fathers" because their Sola Scriptura hermeneutic leads them to conclude that the Church became apostate. That is, they understand Scripture a certain way and then discount the study of the Fathers because the Fathers don't conform with their understanding of Scripture. I doubt many have thought this though properly in light of the Fathers, since even those Fathers who knew the Apostles like St. Ignatius were clearly not "Evangelical" in many respects. The Early Church would have to have fallen into heresy very quickly, which doesn't seem plausible.

Ironically, the Mormons also believe the Church apostatised sometime in the first century.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gwendolyn
Upvote 0
Oct 15, 2008
19,375
7,273
Central California
✟274,079.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I often wonder how a Baptist pastor can go through seminary reading patristics and hearing about the literal real presence in the Eucharist, episcopal polity, sola scriptura NOT being the rule of law, seven sacraments, liturgy, Marian devotion, sacramental theology, the Councils, and so much more and yet they remain in a position with elders, symbolic eucharist with grape juice and crackers, anti-sacramental thinking, seeing Mary as "mariolotry," 1 sacrament or 2 tops, and all the bizarre healings and female pastors and revivals and goofy catch-phrases. Can anyone actually imagine the ancient Church looking like Joel Osteen or Benny Hinn? :p
 
Upvote 0

MKJ

Contributor
Jul 6, 2009
12,260
776
East
✟23,894.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Greens
Someone like Calvin or Luther maybe?

J.I. Packer comes to mind although he is an Anglican evangelical so maybe a bit of a weird example, or N.T. Wright along the same lines. I had a Presbyterian prof in the university department I studied in who would count as well.
 
Upvote 0
Oct 15, 2008
19,375
7,273
Central California
✟274,079.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I'll never forget how my rector was leading a book study that I was in on reading "Knowing God" by JI Packer. Everyone there was smiling and into it until that chapter where Packer SLAMS sacred images, stained glass, religious art, icons, crucifixes, etc. My rector, an evangelical, was really happy. The whole table turned palid and after I spoke out, they all followed suit! :p After that chapter they were less "into" Packer. Those Westminister Anglicans always puzzle me.

Someone like Calvin or Luther maybe?

J.I. Packer comes to mind although he is an Anglican evangelical so maybe a bit of a weird example, or N.T. Wright along the same lines. I had a Presbyterian prof in the university department I studied in who would count as well.
 
Upvote 0
Oct 15, 2008
19,375
7,273
Central California
✟274,079.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
At least Luther kept liturgy, kept the sign of the cross and the real presence view and was ok with Marian devotion and many aspects of Catholicism. Calvin was an odd duck....

Someone like Calvin or Luther maybe?

J.I. Packer comes to mind although he is an Anglican evangelical so maybe a bit of a weird example, or N.T. Wright along the same lines. I had a Presbyterian prof in the university department I studied in who would count as well.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

MKJ

Contributor
Jul 6, 2009
12,260
776
East
✟23,894.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Greens
At least Luther kept liturgy, kept the sign of the cross and the real presence view and was ok with Marian devotion and many aspects of Catholicism. Calvin was an odd duck....

I kind of like Luther, I like his sense of humour. Calvin was just a jerk.
 
Upvote 0

Jesus4Madrid

Orthodox Christian
Jul 21, 2011
1,064
755
✟90,072.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
I often wonder how a Baptist pastor can go through seminary reading patristics and hearing about the literal real presence in the Eucharist, episcopal polity, sola scriptura NOT being the rule of law, seven sacraments, liturgy, Marian devotion, sacramental theology, the Councils, and so much more and yet they remain in a position with elders, symbolic eucharist with grape juice and crackers, anti-sacramental thinking, seeing Mary as "mariolotry," 1 sacrament or 2 tops, and all the bizarre healings and female pastors and revivals and goofy catch-phrases. Can anyone actually imagine the ancient Church looking like Joel Osteen or Benny Hinn? :p

I agree with you (except the part about "bizarre healingS", since nobody can do "bizarre healings" like the Early Church, with it's miraculous relics and wonderworking monastics).

Because what you've described is so implausible, the only explanation must be that budding Baptist ministers don't read patristics as required reading. There are certainly a number of Evangelicals that do read primary sources of the Early Church Fathers, perhaps a part of elective courses, since I have met a number of these who have ended up becoming Orthodox.

I have read some Evangelicals who use selectively the Fathers to show a diversity of opinion in the Early Church regarding certain Latin Marian dogmas such as the Immaculate Conception or the sinlessness of the
Theotokos. They then conclude that the RC Church is in error since it doesn't agree with the Fathers, which is a good standard but one that should also be applied to Evangelical beliefs. The Orthodox avoid such criticism by not dogmatising those same Marian beliefs.
 
Upvote 0

Jesus4Madrid

Orthodox Christian
Jul 21, 2011
1,064
755
✟90,072.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
:D
Someone like Calvin or Luther maybe?

J.I. Packer comes to mind although he is an Anglican evangelical so maybe a bit of a weird example, or N.T. Wright along the same lines. I had a Presbyterian prof in the university department I studied in who would count as well.
I have a lot of respect for the Reformers, since they were originally trying to jettison Latin innovations that didn't square with their understanding of Apostolic Christianity. Luther's 95 Theses were mostly about the Latin innovation of indulgences and any Orthodox must concur with him here. Luther also gave lip service to agreeing with Greek Orthodox theology. We would have a very different Christian Church today had those German Lutherans from University of Tübingen been able to come to terms with Orthodoxy in their exchanges with Constantinople in the late 16 century.

One should also note that the Reformers had fewer patristic sources than we have today, some of which like the Didache are very early and very "catholic".
 
Upvote 0

Ortho_Cat

Orthodox Christian
Aug 12, 2009
9,961
680
KS
✟21,039.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I often wonder how a Baptist pastor can go through seminary reading patristics and hearing about the literal real presence in the Eucharist, episcopal polity, sola scriptura NOT being the rule of law, seven sacraments, liturgy, Marian devotion, sacramental theology, the Councils, and so much more and yet they remain in a position with elders, symbolic eucharist with grape juice and crackers, anti-sacramental thinking, seeing Mary as "mariolotry," 1 sacrament or 2 tops, and all the bizarre healings and female pastors and revivals and goofy catch-phrases. Can anyone actually imagine the ancient Church looking like Joel Osteen or Benny Hinn? :p

I think few baptist colleges teach church history before the 16th century in any real sense; this is what i've heard anyways.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Oct 15, 2008
19,375
7,273
Central California
✟274,079.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Luther had conviction, class, style, and he did indeed have a sense of humor. I find him to be a hardy type of guy and surely knocking back a beer with him must've been a hoot LOL....Calvin, like you said, was pompous and irritating. He was a lawyer. And I happen to share Shakespeare's sentiment about lawyers in Henry VI! LOL

I kind of like Luther, I like his sense of humour. Calvin was just a jerk.
 
Upvote 0
Oct 15, 2008
19,375
7,273
Central California
✟274,079.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I was referring to these crazy Benny Hinn style paralyzed folks getting smacked in the head by Pastor Benny, knocked to the floor in ecstacy, then rising and doing the jitterbug on the stage....:p

Perhaps there is a Baptist Cliff Notes edition to the Fathers? ^_^

I agree with you (except the part about "bizarre healingS", since nobody can do "bizarre healings" like the Early Church, with it's miraculous relics and wonderworking monastics).

Because what you've described is so implausible, the only explanation must be that budding Baptist ministers don't read patristics as required reading. There are certainly a number of Evangelicals that do read primary sources of the Early Church Fathers, perhaps a part of elective courses, since I have met a number of these who have ended up becoming Orthodox.

I have read some Evangelicals who use selectively the Fathers to show a diversity of opinion in the Early Church regarding certain Latin Marian dogmas such as the Immaculate Conception or the sinlessness of the
Theotokos. They then conclude that the RC Church is in error since it doesn't agree with the Fathers, which is a good standard but one that should also be applied to Evangelical beliefs. The Orthodox avoid such criticism by not dogmatising those same Marian beliefs.
 
Upvote 0

Jesus4Madrid

Orthodox Christian
Jul 21, 2011
1,064
755
✟90,072.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
I think few baptist colleges teach church history before the 16th century in any real sense; this is what i've heard anyways.
Evangelicals sometimes teach that a remnant of Evangelical Christianity always remained in the Church and thus the gates of hell never prevailed against it. They will pick and choose from bits of Fathers--e.g. Tertullian for one issue and St. Jerome for another. (Unfortunately, there is no fully Evangelical Father.) They will then trace this remnant through Girolamo Savonarola to the Reformers, when the Church was again fully restored.

It's not a very plausible idea, since the Church is clearly very "catholic" from the 1st century and taking the consensus of the Fathers leads to a very different history. It is also a rather depressing history, since it means the Church, including the disciples of the Apostles, fell into serious error throughout Christendom in just one generation and it took God then fifteen centuries to rectify this error. It would seem that the Holy Spirit didn't protect the Church much during centuries.

Given that, I too would probably choose not to study Church history before the 16th century.
 
Upvote 0

MrJim

Legend 3/17/05
Mar 17, 2005
16,491
1,369
FEMA Region III
✟42,622.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I kind of like Luther, I like his sense of humour. Calvin was just a jerk.

I was discipled amongst mennonites; when I hear "Luther" I cringe. He was a great persecutor (along with Calvin) of anabaptists. And I challenge baptists whenever they try to use him (and Calvin) as a "true hero" since Luther would have been persecuting them too since they aren't pedobaptist (you should them stumble over themselves^_^).

As to evangelicals & patristics~~let me introduce you to David Bercot, founder of Scroll Publishing. Some of you may have his book~it is sold through "Light and Life" and "Regina Press":

513D50KTX6L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg


Bercot started out as a baptist in Texas~he's a contracts attorney, spends all his time pouring over legal documents..started investigating the early church through the reading of the Ante-Nicene Fathers and became anabaptist. From there he wrote some more and his journey continued and when he assembled the above he was in the Anglican Church (a very conservative part) as an Anglican priest. He eventually returned to the anabaptists (actually here in my county of Pennsylvania) and continues to publish and do mission work.

There is a segment of anabaptists that are very interested in patristics but only Ante-Nicene Fathers (ANF) because of course after the Council of Nicea it all went bad
icon_rolleyes.gif
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Macarius

Progressive Orthodox Christian
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2007
3,263
771
The Ivory Tower
✟52,122.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I think few baptist colleges teach church history before the 16th century in any real sense; this is what i've heard anyways.

That's a bit of a caricature. They cover it, but to us it seems like silly under-coverage.

To the OP: The issue, and this includes the ways Evangelicals can read the fathers and come away still Evangelical, is where one places the "locus" of history - the point at which the most significant and definitive forms of Christianity took form. ALL THREE major branches (EO, RCC, Prot) have different loci. Each, then, sees what came before that locus as "leading up to" the locus and everything that came after as either a "falling away" or a process of "working out" that locus.

For us, the locus tends to be the 1st - 4th ecumenical councils (up through Chalcedon). The councils after Chalcedon are seen as "working out" what Chalcedon taught, and Chalcedon is seen as "completing" the natural questions raised by Nicaea (if Christ is co-equal to the Father, then how in the world is He also fully human?). We even call the church fathers before Nicaea the "ante-Nicene fathers" and, recently, Fr. Behr published a study of the pre-Nicene time period titled "The Way to Nicaea."

Don't get me wrong, we love us some early church fathers (Ignatius, Clement, Ireneaus, Cyprian, etc.) - but we excuse a lot of their Christology and Trinitarian language on the grounds that it was pre-Nicene; it was only "building up" to Nicaea.

For us, then, a LOT of focus in history and patristics rests on the 4th - 5th c. with additional heavy focus on the 6th - 8th c and 1st - 3rd c. (as the build up and working out). We, however, seemingly ignore completely what happens after the fall of Constantinople except on a highly local level (e.g. we might talk about particular things happening in the Russian church, or a particular dialogue between Protestants and the EP). It is understudied in our academies (there are NO - I repeat, ZERO - good histories of the 16th - 20th c. of Orthodoxy), and therefore understudied at the parish level as well.

By way of example (to borrow a current issue): does anyone know of a good summary of how the Orthodox Church moved from a Pentarchy within one Oecumenae to a system several autocephalous churches? I mean, some of that move was prefigured as early as the 1st millenium (e.g. with Georgia and Bulgaria), but its really a movement of the last couple hundred years.

Catholics place their locus of history in the high middle ages, really the late 11th c. through the early 14th c. What came before is almost always painted as a building up to that time period - the papacy's gradual growth, the slow acceptance of the filioque, the gradual distancing from the Eastern Churches, and, in particular from the 9th c. onwards, the dramatic and full integration of Augustinian thought into every nook of Catholic theology.

Thus, in RCC church history classes, the first millenium is covered, but covered a LOT less than in Orthodox studies. In particular, the 5th - 7th councils may not be covered AT ALL, and the patristic focus will be almost entirely on the Jerome / Ambrose / Augustine group (with special attention to Benedict), and much less on Athanasius or Cyril of Alexandria (who, due to their significance, will of course still be studied - just not in as much depth as in an Eastern setting).

What comes after the early 14th c. is almost always seen as a falling away with periodic movements towards renewal. The Avignon Papacy and Conciliarism are a falling away, barely renewed in time for the great falling away in the Reformation, followed by the great renewal of the counter-Reformation and the age of exploration (leading to large, new missions fields); then the rise of secularism and nation states and modernity answered first by Vatican I and then by Vatican II. These are, however, all covered with the high middle ages as the principle "vocabulary" by which events are to be evaluated.

The traditional Protestant (hehe) is likely to see the 16th c. or 17th c. as the locus. The Apostolic age was fantastic, but then quickly devolved into corruption (both philosophical and political) that deviated from the faith and required, centuries later, renewal. The devolution was very subtle and very gradual. So they read the fathers, but see in them a MIX of good and bad with, as the timeline progresses, increasingly "unbiblical" theological positions and increasingly politicized motives (esp. after the ominous 4th c.). The Western Middle Ages are seen as the Nadir, requiring the rediscovery and renewal of the Reformation to return the Church to its true roots - the Apostolic Age (encapsulated in the Scriptures) as the norm and rule for faith. AFTER this point is merely a "working out" of that renewal, which must occur continuously (that is, we are always falling away and needing to return to the roots).

Evangelicals, by contrast with other Protestants, may see the 16th c. and a good starting point (it begins the upward road from the nadir of the middle ages), but may wait until the revival culture of the late 19th / early 20th c. (esp. in America) to see Christianity "truly" being practiced - their locus of history may be as late as last century! Think about who they tend to read: Billy Graham, CS Lewis, or more contemporary authors (I speak here on a popular level; in academia, they certainly do read earlier figures).

So, to me, the way an evangelical reads the fathers is to see them in that "vision" of history that imagines a great and gradual falling away. They don't ascribe them any normative influence, if they even feel compelled to respect their faith at all (and many do, though many do not); so when it becomes clear that figures as early as Ignatius of Antioch CLEARLY believed in the real presence of Christ and the three-fold hierarchy (bishop, priest, deacon), this is just taken as a pious deviation from the (recently ended) Scriptural age and the first evidence of the great falling away.

In Christ,
Macarius
 
  • Like
Reactions: MrJim
Upvote 0