Is it possible to have OCD (or had OCD) and still be 100% sure of being saved?

[marcb]

You do not have a problem with God, you have OCD.

Seajoy,

You are so wise. We all need to hear this simple fact. I still don't completely get it, but I am starting to see this. Over time my ocd has brought me closer to a real relationship with God, as tribulations do, but your statement is worthy of rememberance.

I just became a Stephen Minister and went to my first supervision meeting. Before I arrived and as we began, I brought my baggage from what I perceived to be a bad day. I was so down. I felt so distant from God, and as if I had abandoned Him or vice versa. I began to despair. The topic for our continuing ed was spiritual discipline, and how we can improve our relationship with God. I was sank. I was complaining in my journal how I spend time in the Word daily, I pray incessantly, and all I have to show for it is a relationship that is so broken. Woe is me, I, I, I was my issue.....

A care-receiver situation was then discussed (with anonymity and dignity). It was about a person who has been in the faith for a long time who had become depressed and anxious and sought a Stepen Minister (basically a trained lay caregiver). Guess what? At the center of her feelings, this person felt "abandoned by God" and as if she had "done something wrong" and was being punished. She had all the doubts we describe. Then for me, it clicked. This is what anxiety and depression does to our perception. God is in it and can make us whole, when and if He choses, but it is not our relational problem per se. It is merely our perception of the problem through broken lenses.

I offered insight into my own struggles as the caregiver wrestled with how to use scripture in the caregiver relationship. I mentioned my "psalms of despair: 6 and 13, as a help for me in my dark hours. These are conduits to God for our feelings. If they are good enough for the man after God's own heart, they are certainly good enough for me to express myself.

The intense burden I felt was lifted and even validated. If having been depressed and anxious (and ocd is really just a tricky combo of the two, right?) led to insight to encourage, pray for, and help others with these issues, then isn't it worth it? We could be part of God's plan. Not that we need to be mental martyrs, but having suffered, we stand in a position to point to the greatness of God.

Seajoy, as one who has "been there," I hope you feel that somehow God has used your struggles for a worthy purpose, as you remind us that we do not have a "problem with God."

Even if we did, He is the one who repairs.

Marc

 

[PARCmd]

Uhm, I'm OK now - I mean, due to prayers from lots of people (and from you), I don't get obsessions anymore (and that's a happy ending). THe only problem I have is with compulsions - because I couldn't stop them. But now, I'm trying to stop doing them (somewhat successful).

But I couldn't stop worrying about the things I've stupidly done with my compulsions: about accidentally irrevocably renouncing God, accidentally blaspheming the Holy Spirit, accidentally accepting the Devil/Enemy, accidentally irrevocably dedicating myself to the Devil/Enemy, accidentally selling/giving my soul/mind/whatever to the Enemy --ALL because of two things: 1) I WAS NOT ABLE TO PLACE A CANCELING WORD, and 2) I PLACED MORE "NOTS" THAN WHAT IS NEEDED. After all, if I could now stop the Compulsions (which I'm now being able to do), then it means that I could've stopped it earlier (which I was able to do before), and this might have mean that it is really my unconscious that likes to do this. Personally, I have a problem how much of the blame is to be given to OCD. How can I formally break off ties with the Enemy (if there was because of compulsions above?

Though one thing I'm sure -- is that I desperately want God though He seems so far away. Even though sometimes I'm tempted not to read the Bible, etc., etc., but I go to CHurch every Sunday.

Actually, there's a much deeper story behind this OCD of mine, these thoughts began last year. I got blinded by worldly philosophy and the like, when I thought to myself "Maybe Christianity isn't for me" (because I percieved that if there is a God why would he allow people to be poor, ugly, etc.) - sort of since then, I had this OCD. Of course, now, I wouldn't even think of such a thing anymore (and besides that's quite stupid, right?!). I prayed to God that I wouldn't abandon the faith forever (just today), and my OCD is starting to be well now. So the past compulsions are the only thing I worry about...

 

[stacii]

God does seem far away at times, but he is always there. I think there is a verse somewhere about how he pulls away at times in order to draw us closer to him.

I think all of us can say that we've had doubts, legit doubts, not the OCD variety, about Christianity. How can your faith grow without them?

Part of the pain of OCD is that you really do start obsessing about obsessing or obsessing about compulsive behavior. Even on my best days I wake up obsessing that I might start obsessing again...it's vicious. It too can get better. Don't worry about breaking ties with the enemy - you never had any. It really is your OCD. Maybe you are now able to stop the compulsions because you've learned about the condition, people have prayed for you and you feel more prepared to fight this thing. I suppose I could have stopped obsessing years before I did, but in reality it took some good therapy and informative learning to stop.

The reality of it is, you're brain might always want to obsess or force you into compulsive behavior. The disorder waxes and wanes quite a bit, but it will always be there. You should be glad that you are learning how to cope now. The next time around you'll be more equipped to fight it.

 

[marcb]

Uhm, I'm OK now - I mean, due to prayers from lots of people (and from you), I don't get obsessions anymore (and that's a happy ending). THe only problem I have is with compulsions - because I couldn't stop them. But now, I'm trying to stop doing them (somewhat successful).

But I couldn't stop worrying about the things I've stupidly done with my compulsions: about accidentally irrevocably renouncing God, accidentally blaspheming the Holy Spirit, accidentally accepting the Devil/Enemy, accidentally irrevocably dedicating myself to the Devil/Enemy, accidentally selling/giving my soul/mind/whatever to the Enemy --ALL because of two things: 1) I WAS NOT ABLE TO PLACE A CANCELING WORD, and 2) I PLACED MORE "NOTS" THAN WHAT IS NEEDED.

God is not ruling the universe with a grammar check to see if you accidently placed your soul at the whim of a double negative. Moreover, your soul is not for sale - it's been bought with the blood of Christ. Your will is consistent with His will, you just have anxiety clouding your mind.

After all, if I could now stop the Compulsions (which I'm now being able to do), then it means that I could've stopped it earlier (which I was able to do before), and this might have mean that it is really my unconscious that likes to do this. Personally, I have a problem how much of the blame is to be given to OCD.

Remember, it is so ocd to try to divide up the blame between yourself and your condition. I know it seems all important to know, but what if you never knew what was attributed to you and what was attributed to your ocd? Non-ocd people get intrusive thoughts all the time. The biggest difference is our sensitivity to the thoughts and our predictable overresponse to them. We empower them with our response.

How can I formally break off ties with the Enemy (if there was because of compulsions above?

You have no ties to the Enemy. You belong to Christ. Period.

Though one thing I'm sure -- is that I desperately want God though He seems so far away.

I'm am glad you are pursuing God. This is great evidence of your belonging to Him. He is still drawing you in, otherwise you would have no interest or desire. We humans do not move to God, He draws us in. Focus on His faithfulness.

Even though sometimes I'm tempted not to read the Bible, etc., etc., but I go to CHurch every Sunday.

Great! Keep going to church! Enjoy your worship. Being tempted in any way is just a circumstance. God is seeing you through.

Actually, there's a much deeper story behind this OCD of mine, these thoughts began last year. I got blinded by worldly philosophy and the like, when I thought to myself "Maybe Christianity isn't for me" (because I percieved that if there is a God why would he allow people to be poor, ugly, etc.) - sort of since then, I had this OCD. Of course, now, I wouldn't even think of such a thing anymore (and besides that's quite stupid, right?!). I prayed to God that I wouldn't abandon the faith forever (just today), and my OCD is starting to be well now.

I think your honest questions (great song - google it), scared you. Look at the Psalms, David asked God why bad things happened. Moreover, Jesus tells us to "count the cost," which leads us to ask on some level if Christianity (I prefer the term discipleship) is for us. Of course, He calls us, and wants us to reflect on what it entails. It's not like we who are Christians decided we would try it out, we are drawn in.

So the past compulsions are the only thing I worry about...

Hey bud,

See my responses above. Now maybe you can help me. It usually helps to help, because you can be more objective with others (weird huh, but I think that's why we need a community of faith, and our weird little community of believers who have been blessed with ocd!)

So I was reading CS Lewis' take in Mere Christianity on forgiving our enemies, and what a radical concept it is. He described how humanly difficult "forgiving the Gestapo if you were a Pole or a Jew" would be.

In my weirdness, affliction, whatever I began to consider in vaguely recallable terms that I would forgive the devil, and asked God to do the same. This of course, began to eat at me in an instant. I started thinking, "what am I doing?" I was too tired to deal with it entirely (good work therapeutically), but of course it was the first thing on my mind this morning. I hope I am not tripping anybody out too hard and starting a cycle (ok that's my ocd - I think we can all agree that obsessions are not contagious). Although the oc component to me contemplates if I've fallen into a scheme of misleading people (drop it, Marc).

This is somewhat of a new angle. How dare I intercede on behalf of THE enemy? I don't think that's what praying for and forgiving your enemies is about. Many of the previous obsessions have burned themselves out. I suppose this one will as well. But how weird!

What are your thoughts (on this), PARCmd?

If you guys think I am in the wrong, for having done this or even posting it, please forgive me and pray for me that I might be forgiven. I know this is outside of typical ocd forum requests, but please pray, not only for healing, but forgiveness. Thank you, and God bless.

...confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. James 5:16

 

[jc9992]

In my weirdness, affliction, whatever I began to consider in vaguely recallable terms that I would forgive the devil, and asked God to do the same. This of course, began to eat at me in an instant. I started thinking, "what am I doing?"

Dont be to hard on yourself Marc. this has happened to me also.Several times in the past i have contemplated what it would be like if the enemy wasnt bad and he never left God etc.These have bothered me before but not a lot because i know the thoughts are false.

 

[Boxers1]

marcb...try saying "so what" "who cares" or "ok whatever" to every new obsession that pops up. I get what you are saying about how your "previous obsessions have burned themselves out." Is not this exposure/response prevention therapy in a nutshell? You burned out on the other obsessions meaning you aren't really bothered anymore. So you have to do the same thing with any new obsession. So do I. Burn it out. To all of our obsessions...so what....right?

 

[PARCmd]

Hey bud,

See my responses above. Now maybe you can help me. It usually helps to help, because you can be more objective with others (weird huh, but I think that's why we need a community of faith, and our weird little community of believers who have been blessed with ocd!)

So I was reading CS Lewis' take in Mere Christianity on forgiving our enemies, and what a radical concept it is. He described how humanly difficult "forgiving the Gestapo if you were a Pole or a Jew" would be.

In my weirdness, affliction, whatever I began to consider in vaguely recallable terms that I would forgive the devil, and asked God to do the same. This of course, began to eat at me in an instant. I started thinking, "what am I doing?" I was too tired to deal with it entirely (good work therapeutically), but of course it was the first thing on my mind this morning. I hope I am not tripping anybody out too hard and starting a cycle (ok that's my ocd - I think we can all agree that obsessions are not contagious). Although the oc component to me contemplates if I've fallen into a scheme of misleading people (drop it, Marc).

This is somewhat of a new angle. How dare I intercede on behalf of THE enemy? I don't think that's what praying for and forgiving your enemies is about. Many of the previous obsessions have burned themselves out. I suppose this one will as well. But how weird!

What are your thoughts (on this), PARCmd?

If you guys think I am in the wrong, for having done this or even posting it, please forgive me and pray for me that I might be forgiven. I know this is outside of typical ocd forum requests, but please pray, not only for healing, but forgiveness. Thank you, and God bless.

...confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. James 5:16

This exactly happened to me as well, interceding for the Enemy (but not directly)...how weird! Of course he wouldn't be forgiven, because he had the full and complete revelation of God and yet he rejected God! (This is also the reason why most Bible scholars/students say that the UnP Sin can't be committed these days - because Jesus isn't here in earth anymore and thus we can't see how the HS works - this view of the UnP Sin is somewhat logical too...)

Also related to your post is that sometimes, I would just think a random thought (rehearsing what I just canceled for no apparent reason) - of course, like the Mental Compulsion "I rennc you God", then adding a "not"..then for the next moment, repeating in my mind the original compulsion (without the not) - I'm sure God hasn't counted that against me, right?! Or have I renounced God?!

This has also happened with "irrevocably accepting the Devil" and "dedicating oneself irrevocably to the devil" or "irrevocably giving/selling the soul to Devil"...

I just had some compulsion like this: "..irrevocably accpt the Enemy"..."irrevocably yes, not, not, not...." But the image I had was only one "not". This sounds stupid but I irrevocably stated to God "that I only considered one not despite the many nots, and that if He would still consider the several nots, I'd just place another not if it hasn't still been canceled". This should be dismissed, right?! Or not? This is not an intrusive thought, but a Mental Compulsion - recentl, instead of putting "irrevocably nots", I had urges to put "irrevocably yes" (and even I don't to do such things, something inside me makes me to do it) - so probably there is still some sort of intrusiveness in that.. Silly sounding, isn't it?

 

[wiggsfly]

Yes, there are a lot of ways OCD can manifest itself. Faith is simply one of those ways.

 

[marcb]

OCD seems to be an anxious pursuit of perfection. Hence, we try to keep our thoughts perfect; when we cannot, we judge them as completely failing, and perceive that we are totally doomed.

Perhaps this is good for us when it comes to our faith. Our obsessive thinking pushes us to the brink, shattering any misconceptions we have about redeeming ourselves, and also about God and His mercy.

In Genesis, God asks Abraham, when Abraham perceives fatherhood with Sarah is impossible, "Is anything too hard for the LORD?" I believe God still asks us this when our salvation seems impossible.

When all seems to be lost, we recognize that only a miracle can save us, and that God has done such, for "surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save..." Isaiah 59:1.

This is the truth in Christ. Only the miracle of the death and resurrection of Christ can save any of us.

Is anything too hard for the LORD? Is any thought too big?

 

[TheCheat1]

Is there complete assurance of faith after OCD??? Just asking.

Hello my friend, my name is Joe and I have OCD. I plan on a perfect eternity with my all-sufficient Savior on a new Earth and in a new Heaven.

 

[jc9992]

Is anything too hard for the LORD? Is any thought too big?

I was thinking this same thing yesterday marc.

Does God ever say "Im cant hear your prayers" or "I cant help you"?

No.He doesnt say that ,and youre right, He can do ANYTHING.

 

[PARCmd]

Does this ever happen to you?

Either you are resting (or even angry or some other emotions), then you are sort of reciting some compulsions (unwittingly), and then you just suddenly become aware - like, hey, what am I doing - then scramble to place a "NOT, YOU ALL!!!"?!

Are you sure that if we dont cancel the compulsions in our head that it ISN'T SIN? My brother (who doesn't have OCD) tells me that since I did the compulsions willingly (not willfully - that's different!) - meaning, from our own mind (that is, not an intrusive thought) - it would be a sin not to cancel it....

Whenever I feel so good, the OCD strikes back!!

 

[PARCmd]

Even if you irrevocably dedicated/gave yourself and soul to the enemy?
Even if you irrevocably accepted the enemy?

 

[marcb]

Even if you irrevocably dedicated/gave yourself and soul to the enemy?
Even if you irrevocably accepted the enemy?

Try something that is not involved with canceling your thoughts. Think of God as bigger than you can imagine, more understanding than you can imagine. And ON YOUR SIDE.

Then think of how small you are compared to God. Think of how small your thoughts are compared to you.

Yesterday, I felt physically anxious well before the thoughts came. This is an anxiety disorder and should be treated as such.

If we, having limited insight, can recognize this as anxiety, then how much more does God know?

My anxiety usually fades if it starves. Rather than "canceling," picture God as your protector. Imagery can be useful in treating anxiety, in addition to whatever medical assistance you may need.

Has anybody looked at or experienced relaxation / imagery techniques for this problem?

 

[TheCheat1]

Even if you irrevocably dedicated/gave yourself and soul to the enemy?
Even if you irrevocably accepted the enemy?

Yep.

 

[seajoy]

Does this ever happen to you?

Either you are resting (or even angry or some other emotions), then you are sort of reciting some compulsions (unwittingly), and then you just suddenly become aware - like, hey, what am I doing - then scramble to place a "NOT, YOU ALL!!!"?!

Are you sure that if we dont cancel the compulsions in our head that it ISN'T SIN? My brother (who doesn't have OCD) tells me that since I did the compulsions willingly (not willfully - that's different!) - meaning, from our own mind (that is, not an intrusive thought) - it would be a sin not to cancel it....

Whenever I feel so good, the OCD strikes back!!

Your brother is wrong and doesn't understand ocd.

Stop the "nots" and start the exposure/response therapy. What you are doing is sure not working. Take hold of the therapy and rejoice that the Lord has lead you to it.

 

[stacii]

It really is true that these "nots" are fueling the fire. You are getting yourself all upset over linguistics and words like "irrevocably."

You are not your thoughts. Period. This is an anxiety disorder. That is where it begins, and where it ends. I agree with Seajoy. Your brother is not a therapist, not a mental health expert. And I know he means well and is concerned about the eternity of your soul, but his advice concerning this issue is not appropriate.

Have we not all had well meaning fellow Christians telling us to "snap out of it" or "have stronger faith?" You can't fault anyone for what they don't understand, but you still have to understand that this is beyond their expertise...beyond their experience.

Here is how my therapist would advise me to proceed if I think I've sold my soul to the devil.

Intrusive thought: "I have irrevocably sold my soul to the devil"

Cognitive response: "If I really have irrevocably sold my soul to the devil, there is nothing I can do about it. Worrying about it will not change the consequence, so I might as well live with it."

Several minutes, days, weeks later (duration really depends on how skilled you are at the ERP therapy): "I cannot believe three minutes ago I thought I sold my soul to the devil. How silly!" (Insert prayer here thanking God for Christian therapists and for divine sovereignty. Pray also for protection from future intrusive thoughts, and for the continued ability to deal with the thoughts as they come)

Next step - Get on with day.

You can do it. You just have to let go of strategies that do not work.

 

[stacii]

Marc - I just read what you wrote about anxiety fading if you starve it - and that is exactly what has to happen to deal with this disorder. I've recently become interested in relaxation/imagery to deal with the minor anxieties that come my way. I'm interested to hear how that has worked for you and how long it took you to see results.

 

[jc9992]

I agree that doing compulsions to cancel thoughts does make OCD worse.Im currently struggling with the canceling obsession to keep the thoughts out of my head.Im starting to not say the compulsions as much as I used to but its sort of become a habit so i do it anyway.

I would like to know some self help therapy methods to stop these compulsions and to disregard the thoughts easier.

 

[PARCmd]

Yes. It's not the intrusive thoughts anymore, I just can't control my compulsions - its like I have to think about the bad thingies and then cancel it - of course some are like at the speed of light, so they can't be canceled.

Do you have something like this: you are free from obsessions and urges to do compulsions, then you just engage in the bad thoughts (sometimes blasphemous) and play with them - is this sin? Sorry, I have to know - I've done it a lot of times, but I now resolve not to do it again....