Is it possible The Church isn't part of the Millennium?

[MithrandirOlorin888]

This is something I've noticed on my own, and I find it shocking. But if you read Revelation 21 closely. It describes "New Jersualem" comeing down fomr heaven at the start of the New Heaven and new Earth, after the Millennium and the White Throne Judgment. But it speaks of it in terms that makes it synonymous with the Bride of Christ. In verse 2 "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." That isn't definitive, but latter in Verse 9 "Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."

If that's true, it has a number of interesting implications. It severely hurts the Post-Trib rapture model (which I favored for a long time, and was still partial to right up until noticing this). Because Revelation 20:4-6 clearly have the Tribulaiton saints on Earth Resurrected during the Millennium, and thus makes them separate from the Church.

But it also effect 1 aspect of the Pre-Trib argument. The insistence that the 24 Elders must be the Church post Resurrection/Rapture is based only on Revelation 5:10 where thier descirbed as being made Kings and Priests. My view on Eclesiology is dienfietly that not all Believers are part of the Church, but now I think the being made "Kings and Priests" and is not one of the details unique to the Church, but something Tribulation Saints and Pre-Pentecost believers can could/can also earn. Since that appears to be the cast wiht the Tribulation Saints in Revelation 20:4-6.

I've come to favor a Mid-Trib view on the Rapture. Not the 7th Trumpet variety, but rather I have noticed what few notice that allot of Rapture related imagery is in Revelation 14.

 

[Time Watcher]

Today's ecclesia will be present during the Lord's millennial kingdom .... but as immortal rulers with Him

The believing surviving mortals of tribulation will inhabit the kingdom, will reproduce, and they and their offspring will need His salvation just as humans do in this present age of His grace

The difference .... the Lord will be present on the earth, and the devil will be unable to influence

 

[MithrandirOlorin888]

The Tribulation Saints are clearly defined as Resurrected. There are no references to people who survived the Tribulation. The new people born are born to Resurrected Believers.

 

[Time Watcher]

I would have to say that immortals do not reproduce according to scripture

Both the Lord's immortal pre-tribulation ecclesia .... those on thrones [symbol of the Lord's government], and those who become believers and are martyred [beheaded] during the tribulation will rule with the Lord over the mortals of the millennial kingdom

Here is the evidence of surviving believing mortals of the tribulation entering the kingdom: of Israel [Isaiah 11; 27:13; Matthew 24:29-31] .... of the nations of the Gentiles [Matthew 25:31-46 .... those found believing will enter, the unbelieving will not]

These gatherings and separation of the tribulation survivors are not resurrections of anyone

Here is an example and the evidence of mortals living in the millennial kingdom [Isaiah 11; Ezekiel 36; Zechariah 14:17-21]

Additionally, Satan will not be able to deceive the mortals of the millennial kingdom until his releast after the 1000 years ... the immortal's of the Lord's government over the kingdom are not of those mortals of the nations because immortals of the Lord's ecclesia can never be deceived

 

[MithrandirOlorin888]

That statement by Yeshua only refers to marriage, Traditional Christianity feels the need to assume that includes reproduction because of their obsession with disliking Sex outside marriage. But the Law will be different under the future Kingdom. The Resurrection is a return to how Adam and Eve where before they sinned, where they where supposed to be fruitful and multiply. I think many believing Women will get the opportunity to experience painless childbirth as was intended to be.

 

[zeke37]

This is something I've noticed on my own, and I find it shocking. But if you read Revelation 21 closely. It describes "New Jersualem" comeing down fomr heaven at the start of the New Heaven and new Earth, after the Millennium and the White Throne Judgment. But it speaks of it in terms that makes it synonymous with the Bride of Christ. In verse 2 "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." That isn't definitive, but latter in Verse 9 "Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife."

If that's true, it has a number of interesting implications. It severely hurts the Post-Trib rapture model (which I favored for a long time, and was still partial to right up until noticing this). Because Revelation 20:4-6 clearly have the Tribulaiton saints on Earth Resurrected during the Millennium, and thus makes them separate from the Church.

why does that make them seperate from the church???

I am a post tribber.
Rev20:4 shows the 1st Resurrection (1Thes4:13-16)
which includes the rapture too.(1Thes4:17)

Rev20:4 speaks of martyrs like John the Baptist, beheaded
and it talks about the martyrs for the Word of God (they killed ALL the prophets)
and it talks about the ones that went through the trib, didn't take the mark,
and were gathered (raptured) together to Christ...the elect.

that's all the good guys!

But it also effect 1 aspect of the Pre-Trib argument. The insistence that the 24 Elders must be the Church post Resurrection/Rapture is based only on Revelation 5:10 where thier descirbed as being made Kings and Priests. My view on Eclesiology is dienfietly that not all Believers are part of the Church, but now I think the being made "Kings and Priests" and is not one of the details unique to the Church, but something Tribulation Saints and Pre-Pentecost believers can could/can also earn. Since that appears to be the cast wiht the Tribulation Saints in Revelation 20:4-6.

I still don't follow your reasoning.
Rev20:4 shows who is gathered to Christ at the last day,
which is the Resurrection and rapture.

I've come to favor a Mid-Trib view on the Rapture. Not the 7th Trumpet variety, but rather I have noticed what few notice that allot of Rapture related imagery is in Revelation 14.

I see that too.
but Rev is not completely linear either
and it is the most symbolic of books.

my current view, which might change,
is that the 7th trump is that last day, His Coming...
Rev12 and 13 are inserts explaining how we got there.
they all lead to the rapture or gathering, in Rev14

that is when the wrath of God begins,
and next in Rev is the actual pouring out of that wrath.
folks debate how long that will take, or how long a period the vials last for.
I think they "culminate" at that last day

Today's ecclesia will be present during the Lord's millennial kingdom .... but as immortal rulers with Him

The believing surviving mortals of tribulation will inhabit the kingdom, will reproduce, and they and their offspring will need His salvation just as humans do in this present age of His grace

not sure about that one.
Isaiah uses Hebraisms, figures of speech

the flesh is ALL changed at Christ's coming,
good, bad, in between, and animal alike. 1Cor15

the King and the Kingdom are coming here,
so flesh and blood cannot coexist here,
hence the change at His Coming.

the bad guys are reserved for judgement
the good guys rule over the in between-ers during the Mill
in the hopes that they will be refined and join them.

no age, carnivores lying with herbivores, kids playing with snakes, etc.

at it's end, Satan is released, and their last test begins

the ones that did not get refined (if any)
are joined by those that were reserved for judgement at His Coming
and all the rest of the dead, all under Satan now

the Camp of the Saints is on earth,
so the good guys are all gathered together at this time

then comes the final judgement of God's destroying power

it stands to reason that God removes the Camp of the Saints,
or that it withstands,
to fulfill Rev21

The Tribulation Saints are clearly defined as Resurrected. There are no references to people who survived the Tribulation. The new people born are born to Resurrected Believers.

maybe those elect rulers having "children" during the Mill, is a spiritual thing.
ie. helping to refine them, makes them your child....

 

[Time Watcher]

"That statement by Yeshua only refers to marriage, Traditional Christianity feels the need to assume that includes reproduction because of their obsession with disliking Sex outside marriage. But the Law will be different under the future Kingdom. The Resurrection is a return to how Adam and Eve where before they sinned, where they where supposed to be fruitful and multiply. I think many believing Women will get the opportunity to experience painless childbirth as was intended to be"


Neither do angels reproduce comparably

Do I detect Mormon theology in your views?

I know what this religion believes and teaches about the matter

I also see that you talk of a mid-tribulation, or pre-wrath view [possible Marvin Rosenthal's teaching?]

Would you care to elaborate about this from your prospective?

 

[Time Watcher]

"not sure about that one.
Isaiah uses Hebraisms, figures of speech"




No .... Isaiah does not do this, and neither do the other prophets ... this kind of thinking is the hallmark of the preterist who turns scripture into allegory when it does not fit the preterist's dogma

 

[zeke37]

your a funny cat.
u know im not a preterist
so why would u bring that up?

I don't go around telling u how much your view is pegan, do I?
ooops

 

[zeke37]

That statement by Yeshua only refers to marriage, Traditional Christianity feels the need to assume that includes reproduction because of their obsession with disliking Sex outside marriage. But the Law will be different under the future Kingdom. The Resurrection is a return to how Adam and Eve where before they sinned, where they where supposed to be fruitful and multiply. I think many believing Women will get the opportunity to experience painless childbirth as was intended to be.

maybe. we shall be like the angels
and they had that ability, but they did NOT have God's permission

 

[Time Watcher]

"u know im not a preterist
so why would u bring that up?"


You know why

I don't know what you are .... looks like a selective mix to me ... what ever you need to win your arguement

You said that Isaiah uses allegory in chapter 11 so that you could dismiss the evidence of mortals living in the Lord's coming millennial kingdom

This is what the preterists do in order to refute scripture that discounts their preterist dogma

 

[MithrandirOlorin888]

The Angels have the ability, only reason their not allowed to reproduce is that God didn't order them to. We are ordered to.

The 1st Resurrection and Second Resurrection are categories not a chronological sequence. The 1st Ressureciton doesn't happen all at ocne, it beganw ith Yeshua, and other immediately after his Resurrection. The Two Witnesses are also separate from most of the Resurrection.

The Second Resurrection may not all be at once either, The Beast and the False prophet are may be both be resurrected unbelievers.

 

[Time Watcher]

"We are ordered to."


As physical humans on the earth .... but not as immortals in the heavenly state of existence

The Bible does not teach what you think

The only "Christian" professing "church" that I know of today that teaches the reproduction by immortals is that of the Mormon religion, and this teaching comes from the book of Moroni, an alleged angel who communicated with Joseph Smith

And my understanding from the scriptures of the Bible related to resurrections is that there are only two types of resurrections

The one to eternal life and the other [the second death of the human spirit] to eternal damnation

.... either one or the other .... the first has already occurred and will occur again .... and the second will only occur once [Revelation 20:11-15]

Not sure why you bring this matter up in conjunction with whether immortals reproduce?

Can you explain further?

 

[ebedmelech]

The Church IS the millennium!!! Believers reign with Christ right NOW!!!

Matthew 28:18-20 is where Christ spoke this:
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Unless the meaning of "ALL AUTHORITY" has changed...IT MEANS "ALL AUTHORITY". Ask yourself the meaning of "ALL"...IT MEANS ALL!!!

That is the position of Christ RIGHT NOW!!!

Jesus said "I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA"...how can He not have all authority?

Finally 1 Corinthians 15:24-26
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Jesus is reigning...but to many they mistakenly believe reigning means everything must be in line with Christ. However, having all authority doesn't mean you always exercise that authority...and that IS THE MERCY OF JESUS, as He withholds judgment for those who will be saved.

Of course all of those who are unbelievers don't think Jesus has all authority...and that is why Jesus returns in judgment!!! At that time they will realize HE DOES!!!

This is what's going on! Christ is merciful...but there comes an end to His mercy...AND AT THAT TIME, HE WILL RETURN.

 

[Time Watcher]

"I don't go around telling u how much your view is pegan, do I?"


No, you go around telling that my teachings are lies .... I have the evidence

... but unlike you I don't go around threatening to report and to get posters ban from the forum

And neither do I display the emotional tantrums like you do when someone challenges and disagrees with you

You behave in a manner that expresses your own insecurities ... first defensive, and then becoming offensive with disdain for the views of others

You want the right to express your views, but then disregard the same for others

And when one does disagree and explains why, you accuse them of judging you ... this is the profile of one who is out to win arguments for argument's sake

 

[n2thelight]

Today's ecclesia will be present during the Lord's millennial kingdom .... but as immortal rulers with Him

The believing surviving mortals of tribulation will inhabit the kingdom, will reproduce, and they and their offspring will need His salvation just as humans do in this present age of His grace

The difference .... the Lord will be present on the earth, and the devil will be unable to influence

No flesh during the milennium,all would have been changed,no one shall be born during this time either,the age of the flesh is over....

However there will be some with a mortal soul.....

The purpose of the milennium is for those who reign with Christ,to teach those who fell short...............

 

[Time Watcher]

But all won't be changed to immortality who enter the Lord's coming millennial kingdom on the earth

In fact Satan will be locked away so that He cannot deceive them .... the Lord's immortal ecclesia will never be deceived by Satan

And multitudes the same will rebel against Him at the end of the kingdom [Revelation 20:7-9] .... how do you explain this .... the Lord's immortal ecclesia will not be part of these and will never rebel against Him

Can you provide scripture that gives this teaching of "those immortals who fell short" during the millennium?

And how do you explain the following scriptures [Isaiah 11; 65:20-22; Ezekiel 36]? these scriptures definitely tell of flesh and blood humans multiplying [reproducing] and living in the Lord's millennial kingdom on the earth

 

[MithrandirOlorin888]

The Resurrection is a return to how we where before the Fall. They where ordered to be Fruitful and Multiply.

 

[Time Watcher]

"They where ordered to be Fruitful and Multiply"

.... after they fell

 

[zeke37]

"I don't go around telling u how much your view is pegan, do I?"


No, you go around telling that my teachings are lies .... I have the evidence

your teachings are lies- and not only your eschatology
-you teach against Christ's own words
-you teach against Paul's inspired writing
-you teach against John's vision given by Jesus
-you teach against the prophets who spoke of the trib,
desiring to be here during it

-you show no humility
-no kindness, brotherly love
-no willingness to learn an grow yourself
-every post is negative.

the list goes on and on.

... but unlike you I don't go around threatening to report and to get posters ban from the forum

when u question whether one is a Christian or not
based on their rejection of YOUR truth,
then i will do what needs to be done

this forum has rules. little ones and big ones
you broke them all repeatedly,
and have been reported for doing so

but I suspect u will just come back here
under a NEW sock puppet account, cw.

And neither do I display the emotional tantrums like you do when someone challenges and disagrees with you

you just don't like it that someone challenges you

You behave in a manner that expresses your own insecurities ...

you have behaved in a childish manner, unbefitting a Christian
I have called u on it.

first defensive, and then becoming offensive with disdain for the views of others

I do not have distain for the views of others.
that's how we all grow
i'm all ears.
if all u did was share your views, that'd be fine

You want the right to express your views, but then disregard the same for others

nope.
I want it to be done
in accordance with the forum rules and Christian principals
not the way you do it

And when one does disagree and explains why, you accuse them of judging you ... this is the profile of one who is out to win arguments for argument's sake

u outright judged someone here,
and told us all that he was not a Christian

you don't have that right
skate around it all ya wanna.
you've been reported and the mods will decide