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Is it possible for me to be converted with this condition?

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aiki

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I find it interesting that the first tenet is the one that is the most challenged. I cannot imagine what having a negative view of people would do to my outlook on life.

I guess you'll just have to try it and find out! Rather than it being simply a "negative view", I find it to be a thoroughly realistic view. I should remark that, while I don't believe people are "generally good" or fundamentally good, I do believe that they are still quite capable of, and often do, many very good or positive things. I suppose you could say that the natural sinful condition of humanity is like a sickness -- a sickness for which only Christ is the cure. Knowing that people are "sick" and knowing the "cure" makes me concerned and sympathetic toward them, not merely negative.

Fear is usually based on reason on some level, such as a child's fear of the dark being based on not knowing what is there. What I mean from this is to separate the emotion from the reason.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

I wish to see if my world view is compatible with yours and if not, why.

To what end?

Peace to you.
 
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DarkProphet

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I wish to see if my world view is compatible with yours and if not, why.

To what end?

If our views are not compatible then we will have trouble agreeing on anything. This is not a problem if we never interact but because of Christian political involvement what you believe not only affects me, it ADVERSELY affects me. I am here to see what can be done about that.
 
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rookiemum

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This is not a problem if we never interact but because of Christian political involvement what you believe not only affects me, it ADVERSELY affects me.

We have something in common, I feel the same way about non-Christian political involvement.

I would like to comment on the first tenant you mentioned-that all people are generally good. A little child does not have to be taught to be disobedient, we start rebelling even before we learn to say "no".

You ask many good questions, I hope you will consider the answers given.
 
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skyblue

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Just some thoughts ...

That all people are generally good. Romans 3:21-24, Romans 5:6-10

That to have proof is better then to believe without proof. Hebrews 11:6

That logic and reason should be at the core of how the world is viewed. Isaiah 1:18

That fear should never guide decisions. II Tim 1:7, Psalm 111:10

That new ideas should be examined. Mark 4:11, Romans 16:25-26

That old ideas should be changed if they are found to be wrong. John 7:17-18
 
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DarkProphet

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I would like to comment on the first tenant you mentioned-that all people are generally good. A little child does not have to be taught to be disobedient, we start rebelling even before we learn to say "no".

I'm talking more about a sense of human decency then following any arbitrary set of rules.
 
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CShephard53

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That all people are generally good.

Read your newspaper. If people are generally good than why:
Do people enjoy breaking rules?
Do children get violent unless they are taught not to?
Do infants care more about themselves than anyone else- and will stay that way if they are not conditioned otherwise?
Is it easier to do wrong than right?

Also, how would you define good?

That to have proof is better then to believe without proof.

That logic and reason should be at the core of how the world is viewed.

Granted.
That new ideas should be examined.
Examined, certainly- but no new ideas can be accepted as right and logical without first proving the older, logical idea false. No two ideas can be right and conflict with one another, unless there is a reason why and an explanation.
That old ideas should be changed if they are found to be wrong.
IF they are found to be wrong- but define wrong. Illogical? Immoral?
That fear should never guide decisions.
How do you mean? That we should never make decisions when afraid, or that we should never make a decision that is made because of a fear of something? Either of those would be illogical- children learn easier if there is a negative reinforcement for their behavior (not punishment).
 
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GottaBeMare

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I'm going to be very blunt. You're got it backwards. You don't get to set standards for God, God sets standards for you. But it's a common mistake, one I made during my seeker years. When I finally just turned the steering wheel over to the Lord, everything makes sense and life just keeps getting better every day.

Perhaps you should set aside your pride and your need to control and give God a chance to show you what life walking with Him is like. It's truly the best thing you can ever do for yourself.
 
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gracealone

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1. There is some good in people, but people are not wholly good - Jesus said this "There is none good but God". What He meant is that there is no one who is entirely without sin but God.
2. The things that can be proven like 2 plus 2 is four are not all that important. The things that cannot be proven without a shadow of doubt like.. "my parents love me" are far more important. Can God be proven without a shadow of doubt? I would say no.... but He cannot be disproven either... I'll cleave to the sunny side of doubt. Do you think that if God came and planted Himself right in front of you without disguise or without taking on the appearance of a man and spoke to you directly and said..."Here I am Dark Prophet.. believe in ME", that you would be believing by faith or even choice? I think you would have no choice but rather would be compelled to believe... choice would not be an option.. only confession ... that He alone is God.
3.Logic and reason play a huge role in Christianity. The apostle Paul used reason and logic to appeal to the philosophers of his day to give "many convincing Proofs" that Jesus was God.
4.New ideas about God concerning what He has said and spoken not only through the prophets but through the visible expression of Himself in the Person of Jesus Christ cannot be changed or overidden just because human hearts are opposed to them. He has said... "I am God... and I change NOT. What if He did change His mind all the time cause He made mistakes?... we'd all be in trouble then .. with no assurance that His word was firm and could be counted on.
5 As far as new ideas go... I don't know what you mean.
But don't get the idea that the early Christians were some sort of gullible imbeciles. They were not easily convinced of Jesus Diety... but after being with him and witnessing the resurrection they all came to faith in Him.
As far as "converting you" goes that is not our responsibility. It is however your responsibility to consider the historic person of Jesus Christ and the record concerning the claims that He made of himself. He claimed to forgive sins... to have existed before Abraham even existed.. to be the sender of all the prophets that foretold his coming... and the biggest shocker of all was his claim of Diety.. He called himself "I AM". This was the statement that sent the Jewish Sanhedrin into a rage. This is because "I AM" was the Hebrew name reserved only for the most high God. This earned Him a crucifixtion on a Roman Cross.
So you have the choice to either side with the Sanhedrin and call Him a liar or a lunatic worthy of death..or you can choose to believe His claims as did the early Christians.. and call Him Lord. There really isn't any middle ground concerning His claims. To say that He was just a good teacher is nonsense. Who would follow the teachings of someone who claimed to be God... unless they really were God.
God gives us the will to choose to believe Him in order that what we have with him is an actual relationship instead of compulsion. That is why you can reject Him if you want to. The choice is truly yours.
Best regards to you in your searching. I pray that you too will come to regard Him as your Savior and enter into a love relationship with the one that loved you enough to die for you.
Gracealone
 
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CShephard53

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I'm talking more about a sense of human decency then following any arbitrary set of rules.
Excuse me? Where on earth do you get the idea that we have decency? There are many things we cannot accomplish, many mistakes we make, many things we don't understand.
Christians do not follow a set of rules because they're rules. Rather, they follow them out of respect and love for their-and our- Creator. Also, we have a relationship with the Creator.
Christianity is far more than a set of rules to follow...
That all people are generally good. Romans 3:21-24, Romans 5:6-10
Contradicting Scripture there, bud. We're not generally good, which is what those passages say.
 
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CShephard53

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What do you think He did by sending Jesus? He proved His existance...
We believe by seeing signs- proof. Go read Hebrews 11:1.

I think God can be proved beyond the shadow of a doubt. Otherwise, you would not have people dying for their faith with the ability to be unafraid and at peace.
 
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DarkProphet

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Read your newspaper. If people are generally good than why:
Do people enjoy breaking rules?

A sense of rebelliousness, remember though that rules are not morality and vise versa.

Do children get violent unless they are taught not to?
Do infants care more about themselves than anyone else- and will stay that way if they are not conditioned otherwise?

These are strong arguments for not having an innate sense of morality, at least from birth. However, from my work with children I know that they know when they have done something wrong. They might not always have the maturity to do the right thing but they know what the right thing is.

Is it easier to do wrong than right?

I think that it is easier to do right then wrong.

Also, how would you define good?

A hard question because I don't have a book to define it for me but for now I'll define it as "doing what will bring about the most happiness to the most people"

Examined, certainly- but no new ideas can be accepted as right and logical without first proving the older, logical idea false. No two ideas can be right and conflict with one another, unless there is a reason why and an explanation.

Not necessarily true. Take for example Newtonian physics vs. Relativity, the fact that Relativity is a more accurate model of the universe does not make Newtonian physics any less accurate in it's own domain. It also doesn't mean that everything in Newtonian physics is wrong, it simply means that Relativity is more accurate.

IF they are found to be wrong- but define wrong. Illogical? Immoral?

That's a good question, I suppose illogical would have to be the answer however I should to point out that just about everything I find immoral I also find illogical.


Fear is usually based on reason on some level, like a child's fear of the dark being based on not knowing what is there. What I mean by this is to separate the reason from the emotion.

Excuse me? Where on earth do you get the idea that we have decency?

By working with children I suppose, they might cause trouble but I have yet to meet one that I would consider rotten.

There are many things we cannot accomplish, many mistakes we make, many things we don't understand.

There are also many things we have accomplished, many things we have corrected, many things we do understand.

Christians do not follow a set of rules because they're rules. Rather, they follow them out of respect and love for their-and our- Creator. Also, we have a relationship with the Creator.
Christianity is far more than a set of rules to follow...

I was talking about a child not following an arbitrary rule like not taking a cookie not moral precepts.

What do you think He did by sending Jesus? He proved His existance...
We believe by seeing signs- proof.

What kind of signs?

I think God can be proved beyond the shadow of a doubt. Otherwise, you would not have people dying for their faith with the ability to be unafraid and at peace.

People dying for their faith is not proof, otherwise you would have to acknowledge a supposed legitimacy of suicide bombers.
 
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