Is it okay to talk about casting pearls before swine?

[Mazzaroth]

This is because, as Psalms 14 and 55 both state, only a fool says in his heart there is no God at all. In Romans 1 we read that God gives His own argument for His existance in creation itself...and He has no further argument. If someone refuses to acknowledge God in creation itself, God "gives them over..." to the results of their own foolishness.

I don't really agree with this statement because for awhile I was an atheist, and not just an atheist, but a nihilist. I believed that nothing had a purpose. I was casually raised as a Lutheran and didn't really go to church very often, but was nonetheless taught about the bible etc. As a child I "believed" in God in the same way a child believes what their parents say about the Easter Bunny (that's lying, by the way).

As I got older, around 13, there were no logical reasons for me to believe in a creator, especially after the whole "oh by the way Santa Claus etc isn't real" thing (why should a child trust their parents if they're going to lie to them?).

I could not see God and TRYING to believe in Him would have been futile; it's like trying to convince yourself that something is true when everything you understand points to the fact that it isn't true, or inconclusive. I wasn't about to just lie to myself or try to convince myself of something because it wouldn't be a genuine conversion, and I was not swayed by the typical nay-saying and judgmental scorn non-believers wrongfully receive. Even to this day the things I couldn't stand about the typical Christian community are pretty much the same.

Was that really my fault? Because later on obviously the veil was lifted from me, and a lot of people probably wouldn't like how it happened.

 

[RDKirk]

I think there needs to be some fairly reasonable signs of pigginess before publicly rebuking someone as a pig (or goat, viper etc...) and I think the publicness of it is for the sake of warning others not to get tangled up with that person.

There is no point to publicly rebuking a pig. Examine the metaphor. There's no point to rebuking a real pig that fails to appreciate real pearls. That's the whole point of the metaphor. The pig has no capacity to appreciate what you're putting before it...so why rebuking it for failing to do what it cannot do?

That just makes you look absurd.

But if we're talking about religious hypocrites, that's actually a different thing--certainly it was as far as Jesus was concerned. Jesus did more than rebuke them. Jesus cursed them.

When the Lord of all creation commands "Woe be unto you!" all the forces of woe in the universe stand up and get into formation.

 

[RDKirk]

I don't really agree with this statement because for awhile I was an atheist, and not just an atheist, but a nihilist. I believed that nothing had a purpose. I was casually raised as a Lutheran and didn't really go to church very often, but was nonetheless taught about the bible etc. As a child I "believed" in God in the same way a child believes what their parents say about the Easter Bunny (that's lying, by the way).

Not my statement, that's scripture.

Apparently you had not ever really denied the existence of God in your heart...which I pointed out.

 

[Mazzaroth]

Not my statement, that's scripture.

Apparently you had not ever really denied the existence of God in your heart...which I pointed out.

So is my existence in Christianity a paradox or contradiction, or does the biblical verse actually have merit? It's an innocent question, I'm just wondering how you'll respond.

As for "those types" of atheists, then, how does one tell the difference between a "true atheist" for lack of a better term and a "sleeper" (or whatever you want to call it)?

 

[Breezee]

It's a good point about atheists who go out looking for an argument. I tend to think of them as rabidly religious (in the bad sense), since they act like what many of them dislike in Christians, i.e. a tendency to argue about every little thing.

If this penchant for arguing is a sign of pigginess, then I think it's fair to say that most religious forums do tend to attract such people. This particular forum is fairly good at avoiding that (at least in the few threads that I have visited). They probably have to ban a lot of people in order to do that, however.

Added comment: If it's not clear, I'm referring to both argumentative atheists and argumentative believers. I think that quality is unattractive in both types.

I think it is important to remember that even though people may be abusive, arrogant, and deliberately offensive, it's usually because they are hurting or have been hurt by something in the past. So even if you identify some of the spirits that Jesus talked about (pigs, vipers, wolves, etc) in people. Remember that they may still be a work in progress and that what you say could influence their spiritual choices. I'm not necessarily saying that we have to be super polite to them as they abuse us, but I do think that whatever harsh words we do use with them need to be spirit led. Sometimes a good kick in the pants is what some people need to wake them up.

I notice that Mazzaroth said you said you were raised as a "Christian" and then got hurt by lies and became a Nihilist and later came back to her faith.
That's interesting, because I was raised an Atheist and was taught to look on religion as something primitive and pathetic. However, I believe the Holy Spirit was working with me even before I became a believer and I rebelled against what my parents taught, and sought out Jesus. When I read what Jesus said it made so much sense that I could not discard it as my parents had (who both came from nominally christian families by the way).

Although I do see that a lot of religion is deceptive and pathetic, I see strength and spiritual purity in Jesus and what he taught, so I separate the two. I think you have to, otherwise nothing makes sense. Accepting Jesus does not mean accepting the lies and deceptions of Christians. It's an important distinction that many Atheists fail to see.

 

[Breezee]

So is my existence in Christianity a paradox or contradiction, or does the biblical verse actually have merit? It's an innocent question, I'm just wondering how you'll respond.

As for "those types" of atheists, then, how does one tell the difference between a "true atheist" for lack of a better term and a "sleeper" (or whatever you want to call it)?

That is a VERY good question. I think you would have to say that as long as someone is alive, they have a chance, and you try to do what you can to reach out to them. Just because someone rejects Jesus today does not mean that they will not accept him tomorrow. It's a process. The whole spiritual journey is a process, we may backslide, fall into temptation, whatever, but we have to keep trying to stay on the path. The only difference is that Atheists have wandered a bit further away than we may have. There is no justification for being self righteous. The difference between us and them, is nothing compared to the difference between us and God. So just try to love people. That's what God has given us to do. Love. And maybe, just maybe, we might change someone.

 

[RDKirk]

So is my existence in Christianity a paradox or contradiction, or does the biblical verse actually have merit? It's an innocent question, I'm just wondering how you'll respond.

As for "those types" of atheists, then, how does one tell the difference between a "true atheist" for lack of a better term and a "sleeper" (or whatever you want to call it)?

It's not necessary to tell the difference. That's why Jesus gave us the parable of the wheat and the tares.

Everyone gets the gospel, but we have to avoid useless non-gospel entanglements.

Paul had to bring himself back to the basics. 1 Corinthians 2 is vital to understand in context with Jesus' statement about swine.

Paul begins with "I resolved to know nothing except Christ and Him crucified." and ends with "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that He will instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

 

[Mazzaroth]

That is a VERY good question. I think you would have to say that as long as someone is alive, they have a chance, and you try to do what you can to reach out to them.

It's not necessary to tell the difference. That's why Jesus gave us the parable of the wheat and the tares.

Everyone gets the gospel, but we have to avoid useless non-gospel entanglements.

Paul had to bring himself back to the basics. 1 Corinthians 2 is vital to understand in context with Jesus' statement about swine.

Thank you for your responses, both of them seem very reasonable and understanding to me.

I personally think it is important not to condemn people or to judge their lifestyles because you never know when they are going to figure it out. It could be when they're a child, it could be when they're in college, or it could be when they're 70 years old. WHEN it happens isn't the point, and God isn't slow (2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."), therefore whenever someone figures it out is exactly when they were supposed to figure it out.

It's good to know the difference between right and wrong, but I don't think it's our place to judge PEOPLE, just actions.

 

[candle glow]

It's good to know the difference between right and wrong, but I don't think it's our place to judge PEOPLE, just actions.

This is a good way to put it. Particularly on a forum like this, and when we are talking about obedience to the teachings of Jesus, I feel a need to point it out when I see a professing Christian who seems to be arguing against obedience to Jesus.

Some people are very good with constructing sentences and flowery speeches which sound holy, often including genuinely truthful concepts, but then also subtly undermining obedience to Jesus.

Suggesting that there could be some pigginess happening, in general, may be a good way of warning people to think more carefully about what is being said without necessarily pointing fingers.

 

[Luke1433]

Just to clarify my own position (which, hopefully, is not that different to what others are saying here)...

Just being an atheist does not constitute being a "swine".

Being a "swine" has more to do with a person's tendency to be aggressive, as in looking for ways to "rend" or more or less make personal attacks on those with whom they disagree. Many people can disagree on a hundred different theological issues (even including the existence of God) without being hateful/hurtful. But we should try to avoid getting involved in a discussion where it seems that someone is not open to hearing what we have to say, and where someone seems to be just wanting to score points at the expense of the others person.

This argumentative spirit is present amongst so-called believers as well as amongst atheists, and it is something that we need to recognise when it happens, and steer clear of further engagements.

 

[Messy]

Thank you for your responses, both of them seem very reasonable and understanding to me.

I personally think it is important not to condemn people or to judge their lifestyles because you never know when they are going to figure it out. It could be when they're a child, it could be when they're in college, or it could be when they're 70 years old. WHEN it happens isn't the point, and God isn't slow (2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."), therefore whenever someone figures it out is exactly when they were supposed to figure it out.

It's good to know the difference between right and wrong, but I don't think it's our place to judge PEOPLE, just actions.

Amen, I'm praying for them now. I had a dream about them.
A lot are hurt there on that atheist forum by religion. Most of them were churchgoers who never experienced God. Not swine, but prodigal sons sitting with the swine.

 

[Luke1433]

Very thoughtful comments from both Messy and Mazzaroth! Thank you for them.