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Okay. Reading through it
What an "interesting" way to view disagreement. . .as referring to the person rather than referring to the argument.Well, when someone's first contribution to the discussion is to say that you believe in a lie,
Tsk, tsk, tsk. . .it's difficult to be bothered to respond. But for you Clare...
The poster was being highly selective. If he is going to rely on the "the many" to say that not all will be saved, he must also say whether he believes that same phrase in verses such as this means that not everyone is sinful:
Doesn't Romans 5:18 make clear to which people "in the plural" he is referring?"But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died through the one man’s trespass, much more surely have the grace of God and the gift in the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abounded for the many." Romans 5:15
"The many" simply means people in the plural so I don't understand the point being made.
Yes. . .as all those born of (in) Adam die, so all those born of (in) Christ are made alive.He may also like to consider verses where "all" is used instead such as this one:
"For as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.” 1 Corinthians 15:22
As does the NT. . .but which you are trying to make include all mankind as children of God,First off I am just quoting scripture.
You are trying to make a huge distinction between being "God's offspring" and being "being a child of God".
Doesn't Romans 5:18 make clear to which people "in the plural" he is referring?
It does. . .it refers to "all" people.
Yes. . .all those born of (in) Adam die, so all those born of (in) Christ are made alive.
My second part with this world providing “tons of opportunities”, addresses you “neglecting other’s physical needs”. With all those opportunities to serve the physical needs of others we are very busy.Much as I hate to disagree with you, I can't agree with your categorical "No!". And this is the mainstream Christian view, as I understand it. It's not the case that heaven is a spiritual place up there somewhere that we end up going to. Rather, heaven will come down to earth, as it did with the incarnation, and God will have created His new heaven and a new earth. The incarnation was a harbinger of things to come.
Christianity has always warned about the dangers of splitting ourselves up into a spiritual and a physical side, and consequently neglecting other's physical needs as being of no importance. This is why Jesus told us to feed the hungry, house the homeless and heal the sick.
What we do on this earth really does matter. God will use every act of kindness we do in building His new kingdom.
Okay but He also wishes us to bring these things to an end. He has commanded us to comfort the hurting people of the world so that they no longer hurt and to lift the world's poor out of poverty so that these things are no more. This is all part of the kingdom building task we are charged with.
As I say, AFAIK this is the mainstream view, not a wacky invention of my own making.
I am saying we are all "off-springs of God", but you seem to be saying: An off-spring is not a child?As does the NT. . .but which you are trying to make include all mankind as children of God,
contrary to NT teaching.
I think so. . .It looks like we are in agreement (although
something tells me I must have misunderstood something)
Romans 5:18 "Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all."
"All" means "all" in both cases - just as all are condemned in Adam, so are all justified in Christ.
But that's not what the verse says.
You are not understanding Romans 5:18b in the light of all the NT, in which all Scripture must be understood to be correctly understood."For as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.” 1 Corinthians 15:22
It doesn't say "all those in Christ will be made alive". It says "all will be made alive in Christ". Who are these "all"? They are the same "all" as in the first clause, the people who died in Adam, i.e. everyone. How are they made alive? In Christ.
Previously addressed. . .I am saying we are all "off-springs of God", but you seem to be saying: An off-spring is not a child?
The subject is were we innocent at conception and all those who do mature sin or sinners at conception
I am not a universalist, but do believe Christ was the atoning sacrifice for everyone.Ah yes, Universalism. Did Jesus give His life as a ransom for all, or just many? Matthew 20:28 “Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” Mark 10:45 “For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.”
Did Christ shed His blood for all? Mark 14:24 “And he said unto them, This is my blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many.”
Is the promise of eternal life given to all? Acts 2:39 “For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.” (God does not call all men.)
Was all mankind ordained to eternal life? Acts 13:48 “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”
Did Christ bear the sins all mankind? Hebrews 9:28 “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
Will all the children of Israel turn to the Lord their God? Luke 1:16 "“And He will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God."
Will all enter heaven the only way Jesus provided, through the narrow gate? Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able."
John 17:2 “You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him." Jesus has authority over all flesh but eternal life will only be given to as many as God has given to Jesus.
If Christ gave His life a ransom for "all", if Christ shed His blood for "all", if the promise of eternal life is given to "all", if "all" mankind is ordained to eternal life, and if Christ bore the sins of "all" then "all" has had the ransom paid, all had Christ's blood shed for them, eternal life will be given to "all", and Christ bore the sins of "all" then "all" will go to heaven. Agnostics, God haters, unbelievers, Buddhists, Satan worshipers, atheists, will have no problem gaining entrance to heaven if you believe in universalism. Never mind that Jesus said that the goats in Matthew 25:41 will not make it! "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, (the goats) ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Only those who say that God's supreme attribute is love believe in the lie of universalism. God is love but He is also just. To allow "all" into heaven is not just.
I have a different slant on that verse. Yes, God chose us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world, the same way He chose the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah.Speaking of "in Christ" we must not forget that passage that some Christians absolutely hate and try some pretty phenomenal acrobatics to change the meaning of, and that is Ephesians 1:4 "just as He [God] chose us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame..." The actual meaning? Before God created the world He chose certain individuals in Christ that they should be holy and without blame. We didn't choose God nor did we choose Christ, they chose us before the foundation of the world. In other words before we even had a chance to do anything at all. We had not sinned, we had not done any good works, we had not chosen to do righteousness rather than sin, (actually we could not choose righteousness over sin until we received Christ) so it was a win win situation. God was guaranteed that Christ's sacrifice could not be ignored by the God hating enemies that we are, and we get the blessings! Praise His holy name.
You will have to explain to me what exactly that proves.Notice the "For as"...
As far as: “heaven will come down to earth”, is not a majority view of Christians if you include Orthodox and Catholics. I believe we if we are here when he comes meet Him in the air to go on to heaven
Where are you reding: Christ wants us to bring these things to an end?
Not to mention that it is not orthodox Christianity.
Well now if someone read what I suggested they would understand the differences.Did the definition of slavery change?
One man's opinion.I don't know what you think of NT Wright's take on this. He believes that the Rapture is not meant to be taken literally because it's a literary device Paul uses to conjure up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The custom at the time was for citizens to go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. So the image of when "we meet Him in the air" should be read with the assumption that we will immediately turn around and lead Him back to the newly remade world
Jesus said " The poor will be with us always", and I not only believe Him, but also see the logic behind it. God cn have food fall from heaven if this is not what God feel humans need.Isn't it implicit in the commands to house the homeless etc? Surely God is not going to be annoyed if we give the very last homeless person a home any more than He would have been when we eradicated smallpox from the face of the earth? Perhaps the "poor will be with us" is not a statement of God's wishes but a sad prediction that humanity will fail in this task.
One man's opinion.
I'm sure you'll understand if I go with the text.
All of which still does not change God's legislation of slavery in Leviticus 25:39-54.
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