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Is it ok to kill?

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Today at 06:29 AM Chriƒt said this in Post #19



 

And I would also like to add:

Suicide - no


Why do you say that suicide is necessarily sinful?

Well, I am glad that you can break down all these ways to kill someone into your own categories and classify whether they are ok or not by God's law.  But, I have a different idea of what God's law is obviously.  I know that all of His law is covered by love.  There are crazy situations that you can think of with all of the ways people kill that could be counted as justified or not.  I know one thing, if I am loving God and my neighbor, I am obeying the whole law.
 
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Today at 12:00 PM Number 81 said this in Post #20

:( no

if i had to defend myself, i would never kill the person, i would disable him, knock him unconsience. even if you have a gun you could shoot him in the foot. 


You must be a really skilled combatant.  Hitting people really hard in the head is obviously ok, as long as it does not kill the person.  Shooting someone in the foot in defense of your family is 99.9% of the time ok, because the attacker probably won't die.  Shooting someone in the chest is about a 50% chance of being wrong.  If they are out in the country, away from a hospital, it is about a 75% chance of being wrong, because the attacker has a 75% chance of dying. HAHA

You're ideal prediction of your actions reminds me of when I was four years old.  My parents told me not to go outside alone.  They told me that a stranger could take me.  I told my parents, "I will just punch them in the face."  I believed it whole heartedly.  I have a feeling that if I was in the situation, it might have turned out differently.  I probably would not have reacted exactly how I predicted.  I think you might be in the same mindset.  You think that you know how you would handle an emergency situation, that is awesome.  I hope that if you ever get in that situation that you not only knock them unconcious, but that you also shoot them in the foot.  I think that most people who are desperately trying to defend their family or themselves are probably not thinking of how to kill the person, they are probably thinking of how to save their family.

Anyway, if you think that killing someone is wrong no matter the circumstances, awesome.  Shoot em in the foot.
 
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Hi Bruno~~

Sorry it took me so long to reply...today I'm still learning how to navigate around and so anyway....here is my reply but in answering this, I have a feeling it will depend on how one defines "kill." Anyway, my take:

God is the only authority on this. He can give (and also) take life but we (humans) do not have the allowance to take life for any reason on our will. The answer is very simple in "thou shalt not kill." There is no "thou shalt not kill......but" or "thou shalt not kill however it's ok when..." It's just thou shalt not kill period.

Right off the top of my head, I remember 1 Sam 15 when the Lord commanded Saul to wipe out the Amalekites in Israel but the difference here is HE (our Lord) commanded it because He has the authority over man. And I believe the command was "do NOT spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys." 1 Sam 15:3b God didn't want Saul to miss even the cattle!!! (which were a great commodity then)

:pink:

Jenni
 
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Jenni said:
Hi Bruno~~

Sorry it took me so long to reply...today I'm still learning how to navigate around and so anyway....here is my reply but in answering this, I have a feeling it will depend on how one defines "kill." Anyway, my take:

God is the only authority on this. He can give (and also) take life but we (humans) do not have the allowance to take life for any reason on our will. The answer is very simple in "thou shalt not kill." There is no "thou shalt not kill......but" or "thou shalt not kill however it's ok when..." It's just thou shalt not kill period.

Right off the top of my head, I remember 1 Sam 15 when the Lord commanded Saul to wipe out the Amalekites in Israel but the difference here is HE (our Lord) commanded it because He has the authority over man. And I believe the command was "do NOT spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys." 1 Sam 15:3b God didn't want Saul to miss even the cattle!!! (which were a great commodity then)

:pink:

Jenni

Great way of saying it, God has authority over man that we do not. We want to follow in the footsteps of God, but sometimes we can't because we are bound by different rules.

I don't know how I feel about capital punishment, however. The main concern I have is in the event that the person is wrongfully convicted. Mistakes have been known to happen.
 
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Thou shalt not kill, it is pretty clear. The Sermon on the Mount has a great deal to say about this, and Our Lord rejects an eye for an eye. Orthodox clergy are defrocked if they have killed someone even in a car wreak. War is justification in killing people, better to serve time in the federal pen than to shoot someone in the name of the state.
No killing is not allowed period.
Jeff the Finn
 
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Ecclesiastes 3:1-8
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven;
a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance
a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain,
a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak
a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

:) God bless
 
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Let's add a little clarification here... The translation generally accepted as most accurate by Biblical scholars, the New American Standard Bible reads:

"You shall not murder" Ex. 20:13

--God_follower, keep in mind that Ecclesiastes bears the words of a man embittered and angry. The Scriptural writings are there to teach us a message, but to accept all the writings of this embittered man as the opinion of God is an error. Example: Eccl 3:19-20 "For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust."

The fact is that men and animals do not go to the same place. Is this to say that Ecclesiastes is not Scriptural? Not at all. You just have to understand WHY the book is in Scripture. It is a clear example of what happens when we fall away from God. Life becomes meaningless without God.
 
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First, the traditional interpretation of "thou shall not kill" is that "kill" specifical means "murder", or unjustified homicide. Many translations now use "murder" instead of "kill" because it is much closer to the Hebrew meaning.

from the www.jpfo.org website

"Jewish law set forth in the Talmud states, “If someone comes to kill you, arise quickly and kill him.” (Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin. 1994, 2, 72a; The Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Berakoth. 1990, 58a, 62b).

and:
The Talmud repeatedly mandates self-defense against an attacker. For example, in Talmud Tractate Sanhedrin -- which deals with Legal Judgments - theRabbis explain Exodus 22:1, which states, "If a burglar is caught in the act of breaking in, and is struck and killed, it is not considered an act of murder." The next sentence explains, "However, if he robs in broad daylight, then it is an act of murder [to kill him]."(7)

The first sentence clearly refers to a burglar who works at night. This burglar may be killed, presumably because he enters covertly, knowing that people could be present. He is deemed to have lethal intent. If the homeowner is being robbed by his father or anyone else where it can be correctly determined by a court of law (hence the phrase 'broad daylight' -- if it is clear as daylight that the intruder would not harm the homeowner) that the intruder would never use deadly force to commit the robbery even should the occupant offer resistance, lethal defense is not permissable. If the intruder and his intentions are in doubt, deadly force may be used by the homeowner to defend himself or herself even if the robbery occurs in broad daylight.

On this text, the Rabbis base a general proposition: "If someone comes to kill you, arise quickly and kill him." The Rabbis explain that a thief who enters a building covertly, must know that people:

are likely to be in the building;
will likely try to defend their property.
Thus, the Rabbis presume such an intruder to be ready for a confrontation. They conclude that any person confronting such a thief must be ready to use deadly force against him, if necessary. Use of such force is not required - one does not have to kill the intruder -- but one must do so if that is the only way to save one's own life."

also from jpfo:
". Protestant Doctrine: Individual has personal and unalienable right to self-defense, even against government. Samuel Rutherford, Lex, Rex [1644] 1982, pp. 159-166, 183-185 (Sprinkle Publications edition.) Jesus advised his disciples to arm themselves in view of likely persecution. Luke 22:36. "


Now from the Catholic perspective:

His Holiness Pope John Paul II
Evangelium Vitae
Encyclical Letter on the Value and Inviolability of Human Life
March 25, 1995

Self-Defense Is Not Just a Right, But a Grave Duty
To the Bishops, Priests and Deacons, Men and Women Religious, Lay Faithful, and All People of Good Will

55. This should not cause surprise: to kill a human being, in whom the image of God is present, is a particularly serious sin. Only God is the master of life! Yet from the beginning, faced with the many and often tragic cases which occur in the life of individuals and society, Christian reflection has sought a fuller and deeper understanding of what God's commandment prohibits and prescribes.[43] There are in fact situations in which values proposed by God's Law seem to involve a genuine paradox. This happens for example in the case of legitimate defence, in which the right to protect one's own life and the duty not to harm someone else's life are difficult to reconcile in practice. Certainly, the intrinsic value of life and the duty to love oneself no less than others are the basis of a true right to self-defence. The demanding commandment of love of neighbour, set forth in the Old Testament and confirmed by Jesus, itself presupposes love of oneself as the basis of comparison: "You shall love your neighbour as yourself" (Mk 12:31). Consequently, no one can renounce the right to self-defence out of lack of love for life or for self. This can only be done in virtue of a heroic love which deepens and transfigures the love of self into a radical self-offering, according to the spirit of the Gospel Beatitudes (cf. Mt 5:38-40). The sublime example of this self-offering is the Lord Jesus himself.

Moreover, "legitimate defence can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another's life, the common good of the family or of the State".[44] Unfortunately it happens that the need to render the aggressor incapable of causing harm sometimes involves taking his life. In this case, the fatal outcome is attributable to the aggressor whose action brought it about, even though he may not be morally responsible because of a lack of the use of reason.[45]
Footnotes:

[43] Cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, Nos. 2263-2269; cf. also Catechism of the Council of Trent III, ## 327-332.
[44] Catechism of the Catholic Church, No. 2265.
[45] Cf. SAINT THOMAS AQUINAS, Summa Theologiae, II-II, q. 64, a. 7; SAINT ALPHONSUS DE LIGUORI, Theologia Moralis, 1. III, tr. 4, c. 1, dub. 3."

Now, there's been a trend in current American liberal theology to ignore these principles, such as the position papers of the Presbyterian Church (USA) and the United Methodists. Both of these protestant branches advise it is one's Christian duty to submit to any violent assault, even if the price is one's death (and presumably the death of other innocent in tha way of the murderer--must remeber that when the next version of Charles Manson comes calling....)
 
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Garyapostle said:
Dear All,
It is a sin to take human life for any reason: no war, no abortion, no executions, no self defense.

Peace,
Gary

What sort of sin, how grevious? Is it a greater sin to let innocents die when one could have stopped it? Does the one who initiates the kill or be killed situation have greater or equel culpability than the defender who kills to stop the attacker? What is your basis for this extreme position?
 
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The only instance where I would even consider killing another human being was if my family or my friends were in danger. If someone was trying to hurt or kill them, I would do whatever was within my power to protect them. However, I would try to avoid actually killing the attacker at all costs.
 
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weblord said:
if it's insect or cockroach go ahead kill but pls. don't kill any human being no matter what. :)

No matter what? Try this:

Dylan Diebold is harranging his upcoming victim for some minutes (this happened at Columbine) He has undoubtedbly killed in your witness. He's not noticed you, not noticed that his handgun (left on a table) is in your easy reach. DD decides to execute his next victim with his shotgun, standing up, leveling the weapon at the helpless person's head...

What do you do?
 
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Susan said:
I don't know what I would do in such a case. I would hope and pray to the end that I would never end up in such a hopeless situation.

Perhaps we really should think what we would do in such situations. At Columbine, people followed the advice of "experts" and were murdered as they tried to hide behind desks and such. In the Pacific Northwest, Kip Kingle was tackled after 2 (?) murders at his school.

Hopeless?? No. An ugly choice, yes, but not hopeless. Surrender to evil where innocents will die, now that's hopeless.
 
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Garyapostle said:
Dear All,
It is a sin to take human life for any reason: no war, no abortion, no executions, no self defense.

Peace,
Gary

It seems that it is time to quote myself quoting Scripture:

"Let's add a little clarification here... The translation generally accepted as most accurate by Biblical scholars, the New American Standard Bible reads:

"You shall not murder" Ex. 20:13"

And your Biblical support is....? (aside from abortion, which I believe to be murder... but that's another time, another story) I don't know about you, but if someone decides to kill my family or my friends, I plan to end that person's life if necessary (I would attempt to only stop, but if I couldn't be absolutely sure that I could stop without killing... well, either he/she or I will be dead). And if someone decides to carry out terrorists attacks upon my nation, I feel that it is our duty to stop that person even if it means stopping that person permanently.
 
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