Is it 'normal' for believers to have friends?

Carl Emerson · Jul 17, 2022

RDKirk said:
Okay, you're playing Internet games.

I have simply tried to stick to topic and not be diverted by inane questions.

Let the reader decide who is playing games.

Paidiske · Jul 17, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Do church adherents get home visits ?

No one has confirmed this.

Two things.

1. I have stated that I - and every minister I know - visits people at home. Maybe not everyone, maybe not impromptu, maybe not as often as someone might like, but visiting is absolutely part of ministry. If I were to show you my to-do list for this week, it has four names on it for visiting. That you keep dismissing what I'm telling you is frustrating, to say the least.

2. Not everyone wants home visits. I note a significant generational shift; older folk want a visit at home, younger folk want to catch up in a cafe. The point is whether they get that intentional time, not where it happens.

Carl Emerson said:
The absence of such visits indicates a shift away from the concept of church being family.

Not necessarily. I know, for example, of a priest a generation or two back who (fairly heroically) made it around to every household in his parish... and then wrote up his notes into an extensive case study of the community. He might have been visiting, but he still wasn't viewing his visits as "family" interaction.

Carl Emerson said:
Church leaders at any level don't make home visits these days.

Demonstrably false.

Carl Emerson said:
This is evidence of a move away from Church being family.

Home visits = family is a shaky premise.

Carl Emerson said:
This means adherents are institutionally connected but don't often form friendships.

Why do you think the ability to form friendships among members depends on the minister visiting? What I note is that most of my parishioners have deep friendships which long predate my time in any parish.

seeking.IAM · Jul 17, 2022

My experience in too many churches has been that persons getting pastoral visits are major donors, power brokers, or the seriously ill.

Paidiske · Jul 17, 2022

seeking.IAM said:
My experience in too many churches has been that persons getting pastoral visits are major donors, power brokers, or the seriously ill.

Generally I find that the people in the first two categories don't tend to need visits as much, because they make sure they get time with leaders in other ways. (Eg. arriving on my doorstep impromptu!)

Of course the seriously ill are top of the visiting list, though. In normal times (not right now, because the local hospital isn't letting clergy in except for end of life care because of Covid) being in hospital will get you to the top of my visiting list. I don't really think that's unfair; if you're that sick, you probably need the care.

Carl Emerson · Jul 17, 2022

Paidiske said:
1. I have stated that I - and every minister I know - visits people at home. Maybe not everyone, maybe not impromptu, maybe not as often as someone might like, but visiting is absolutely part of ministry. If I were to show you my to-do list for this week, it has four names on it for visiting. That you keep dismissing what I'm telling you is frustrating, to say the least.

Hey - I applaud any initiative in this direction - but to suggest it is normative in churches generally is not fact.

seeking.IAM · Jul 17, 2022

Paidiske said:
Generally I find that the people in the first two categories don't tend to need visits as much, because they make sure they get time with leaders in other ways.

To be fair, I think there is ample reason for clergy to spend time with the major donors, power brokers, and seriously ill of their congregation. That is legit. I think they would be remiss if ignoring these groups.

In doing so, though, I think they don't often realize how that makes one feel if they are a healthy 30-year-old on a tight budget holding no position of influence in the congregation. I have been a member of 9 churches in my life. As a younger man, I remember what it felt like to perceive oneself as not important enough for their pastor to acknowledge. I am in a different place in life now as Senior Warden of the Vestry, on the Finance Committee, Chair of the Investment Committee, an above average pledger. With it comes more attention than I once had - attention that I probably don't deserve.

Paidiske · Jul 17, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Hey - I applaud any initiative in this direction - but to suggest it is normative in churches generally is not fact.

It is in my experience. Like I said, every minister I know, in any denomination, visits.

seeking.IAM said:
To be fair, I think there is ample reason for clergy to spend time with the major donors, power brokers, and seriously ill of their congregation. That is legit. I think they would be remiss if ignoring these groups.

In doing so, though, I think they don't often realize how that makes one feel if they are a healthy 30-year-old on a tight budget holding no position of influence in the congregation. I have been a member of 9 churches in my life. As a younger man, I remember what it felt like to perceive oneself as not important enough for their pastor to acknowledge. I am in a different place in life now as Senior Warden of the Vestry, on the Finance Committee, Chair of the Investment Committee, an above average pledger. With it comes more attention than I once had - attention that I probably don't deserve.

Hmm. I can definitely remember being a young lay person who wasn't "important," and what that was like. I put some of that down to gender, in my case (it improved when I moved churches to somewhere more supportive of women).

Look, it is difficult. The reality is that one priest/minister/pastor can't be everything to everyone (that was part of my original point). And some people do get less time and attention than would be ideal. I would hope that money or seniority doesn't buy you pastoral care, but I can see how it could happen.

Part of my answer is that expecting the clergy to do it all is probably unreasonable; the senior laity probably need to see mentoring and encouraging the younger folk as part of their role, too. Some are good at it, and others... not so much!

seeking.IAM · Jul 17, 2022

Paidiske said:
Part of my answer is that expecting the clergy to do it all is probably unreasonable

I certainly agree that clergy shouldn't do it all, and laity has equal responsibility for supporting and caring for each other.

My current clergy do an excellent job, I think, of caring for everyone, even the folks visiting us that are down on their luck or homeless. You might find them at a nearby McDonald's having breakfast with the chap that slept in our alcove last night. I've been around a few churches. I find that some clergy, no surprise, do it better than others. Such is the nature of any job, I suppose.

Carl Emerson · Jul 17, 2022

Paidiske said:
It is in my experience. Like I said, every minister I know, in any denomination, visits.

Carefully worded - visits who ???

Why does the average congregant (the silent majority) not get a visit?

Why does not one reader of this thread testify to having visits from Church leaders ?

Sorry but my claim stands.

The average congregant does not get visits from Church leaders.

This was common back in the 50's but is very rare these days.

Again I challenge any reader to testify they had a visit from a church leader except for some formal reason.

It is not happening and I am astonished you would claim it is.

The idea of Church being 'family' is a misnomer - the lonely often remain so - He puts the lonely in Families - sadly much of the Church in the West has largely lost sight of this important function.

Paidiske · Jul 17, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Carefully worded - visits who ???

Here, broadly, are my criteria for deciding who's most urgently in need of a visit:
- Who's asked for one?
- Who's in crisis or seriously ill?
- With whom have I had a conversation - however brief - which needs some pastoral follow up?
- Who is housebound or otherwise isolated?
- Who haven't I talked to for a while who might be in need of some encouragement/attention?

(One of the things which irritates me greatly is when someone goes into hospital, doesn't tell me, but then later complains that I didn't visit while they were in hospital. That happens a lot, but I always feel like telling them that I'm not a mind reader; I will happily visit if I know of the need! Which is why I suggested, if you want a visit, just tell your minister. Most of us are more than willing to work with you).

Carl Emerson said:
Why does the average congregant (the silent majority) not get a visit?

Here's a question; how many visits do you reckon a minister can do in a working week? 'Cause I have a small parish of about 130 households, and I don't usually get past the first three or four dot points on my above list (and even then the housebound often go longer between visits than I like). Because I actually have a lot of other tasks and demands on my time, and I don't get to neglect any of them.

Carl Emerson said:
Sorry but my claim stands.

The average congregant does not get visits from Church leaders.

That wasn't your claim. Your claim was that church leaders don't visit, which is not the same thing.

Carl Emerson said:
Again I challenge any reader to testify they had a visit from a church leader except for some formal reason.

It is not happening and I am astonished you would claim it is.

Does saying, "Hey, I'd love to have a chat, could we catch up some time this week?" count as a "formal" reason? Is it really so hard just to say something like that?

As for being lonely, I don't sit at home, wait for other people to drop by uninvited, and then complain that I'm lonely. If you want to make friends, take some initiative, get out there, join a community group (my groups of choice are book clubs and community choirs, but you do you), contribute in some way, get to know people. The idea that the church's mission is to resolve my loneliness is probably not all that healthy...

sunshineforJesus · Jul 17, 2022

I dont have too many close friends but the ones I do are awesome.

Carl Emerson · Jul 17, 2022

Paidiske said:
Here's a question; how many visits do you reckon a minister can do in a working week? 'Cause I have a small parish of about 130 households, and I don't usually get past the first three or four dot points on my above list (and even then the housebound often go longer between visits than I like). Because I actually have a lot of other tasks and demands on my time, and I don't get to neglect any of them.

I have never suggested it has to be a visit from a minister - I have consistently stated 'Church Leader' this could be a deacon, elder, or anyone with Church office.

It is not about loading up the Pastor, Minister or whatever.

Anyway my concern is heard by some so we will leave it at that.

Family is not a priority in many modern churches.

Paidiske · Jul 17, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
I have never suggested it has to be a visit from a minister - I have consistently stated 'Church Leader' this could be a deacon, elder, or anyone with Church office.

Again we come back to the problem of expectations, role clarity and so on. How many parish councillors (or equivalent) expect this to be part of their role?

Carl Emerson said:
Anyway my concern is heard by some so we will leave it at that.

Having a vent about how terrible the church is, isn't likely to actually make progress to solving your problem, though, is it?

Carl Emerson · Jul 17, 2022

Paidiske said:
Again we come back to the problem of expectations, role clarity and so on. How many parish councillors (or equivalent) expect this to be part of their role?

Having a vent about how terrible the church is, isn't likely to actually make progress to solving your problem, though, is it?

If that is the way you read my heart God help the Church...

Joined2krist · Jul 18, 2022

@Carl, in Acts, the believers in the community didn't work, they were close because they had time to build relationships, they sold their belongings and lived off it. But now people work, and have less time to spare.

Carl Emerson · Jul 18, 2022

Joined2krist said:
@Carl, in Acts, the believers in the community didn't work, they were close because they had time to build relationships, they sold their belongings and lived off it. But now people work, and have less time to spare.

Really ?

Can you site evidence for this conclusion?

Carl Emerson · Jul 18, 2022

Paul worked so as not to burden others.

Paul said "Those who do not work should not eat...

Joined2krist · Jul 18, 2022

Here; 4:32-36. Before they were scattered here; 8:2-3

Joined2krist · Jul 18, 2022

Here; Acts 4:32-36. Before they were scattered here; Acts 8:2-3

Psalm 27 · Jul 18, 2022

When I meet up with non believers, I feel that it was a waste of time, because they don't want to talk about Jesus (other than blaspheme His name)
Christian friends=fellowship

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