Is it 'normal' for believers to have friends?

timf · Jul 16, 2022

It is interesting that from a number of responses you have received clearly demonstrate why "friendships" within the church are difficult not to mention "family-like" relationships.

The mini-series "Band of Brothers" follows soldiers through WWII. However, at the end when the war is over each goes his own way and the "brotherhood" seems no longer to exist.

Perhaps as Christians we also only show our love for each other when faced with difficult times.

Christian love (1 Cor 13:4-7) is really selflessness and not so much affection. In a family children are naturally selfish. In Christian circles less mature Christians demonstrate their selfishness by being in the flesh and fomenting dissension and discord.

Sadly many churches seem to have no adults (mature Christians) so the church runs like an orphanage rather than a family. I suspect that only adverse circumstances will force many Christians to "grow up".

StillGods · Jul 16, 2022

I think it is normal, but friends with pastors/leaders no - they are very busy usually and paid to do the very difficult job of leading and teaching, so unlikely to be true friends as they have a specific role to help you grow in your faith journey that's it really. I am grateful they have that role and dont expect more than that.
sounds like in that church you had an incredibly gifted and very very selfless pastor type person, I'd just be grateful you had that in your life for a time and count that a gift from God for that season in your life and try not to compare every subsequent church experience to that one because they will all fall short.
invite people who aren't pastors/leaders over... people who aren't in that role are more likely to have the time to reciprocate (and if not able to reciprocate will be very appreciatetive that you cared enough to ask them and you might really bless them without realizing especially singles in the church who hardly ever get invited anywhere) it is more blessed to give than to receive (I say that knowing it's really difficult sometimes to give rather than receive though so I am talking to myself here aswell).

aiki · Jul 16, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
My wife and I were musing on the fact that true friends are very hard to find in our world.

Sounds a lot like my wife and I.

Carl Emerson said:
Apart from each other, she has one friend and I have none.

Yup. We're in more or less the same boat. We have many acquaintances and superficial friends but none who approach the level of "true friends." Not that we haven't tried again and again to form such friendships; they are just incredibly difficult these days to build.

Carl Emerson said:
Now part of the reason is that I have a strong passion for Jesus and as He said we would be hated as He was.

A.W. Tozer used to preach a sermon entitled something like, "The Godly Man Walks Alone." He described the progressive isolation of a person who enters more and more deeply into fellowship with God among those who are content never to do so. Fortunately, the trade off is that fellowship with God is far more sustaining, far richer and deeper in its quality, than any friendship one can obtain with fellow human beings.

Carl Emerson said:
Another reason is that folks are under such pressure to survive these days that somehow they are too busy.

I dunno... Survival was a whole lot more difficult in the time of the Early Church but the first believers seemed to form very tight bonds with one another. I think the problem is actually that the Church today is suffering from the toxic consequences of affluence and ease. Just as happened with Israel in the OT, the more peace and plenty within which the modern Church dwells, and the longer the Church enjoys these things, the farther from God it has moved. This drift from God shows up in a widespread drifting of believers from one another.

Carl Emerson said:
Another reason is that folks associate with those who they consider successful by the worlds standards.

Which is reflective of the increasingly individual-centered thinking of the Church as it is saturated with relativism, post-modernism, and moral subjectivism. As these secular philosophies continue to entrench in the Church, the result is the tribalization of people along lines of individual interests, preferences, sex, age, and so on. Rather than the people of God unifying under and in Christ, they are convinced that Christ is just a means to greater and greater individuation, to being more and more who they are, not who he is (Romans 8:29).

aiki · Jul 16, 2022

double post

Carl Emerson · Jul 16, 2022

StillGods said:
I think it is normal, but friends with pastors/leaders no - they are very busy usually and paid to do the very difficult job of leading and teaching, so unlikely to be true friends as they have a specific role to help you grow in your faith journey that's it really. I am grateful they have that role and dont expect more than that.
sounds like in that church you had an incredibly gifted and very very selfless pastor type person, I'd just be grateful you had that in your life for a time and count that a gift from God for that season in your life and try not to compare every subsequent church experience to that one because they will all fall short.
invite people who aren't pastors/leaders over... people who aren't in that role are more likely to have the time to reciprocate (and if not able to reciprocate will be very appreciatetive that you cared enough to ask them and you might really bless them without realizing especially singles in the church who hardly ever get invited anywhere) it is more blessed to give than to receive (I say that knowing it's really difficult sometimes to give rather than receive though so I am talking to myself here aswell).

On your first point I guess I disagree.

Pastors fall often because they become isolated encounter temptations beyond their endurance and have no friends to stand with.

This model to me is seriously flawed.

We ignore that church is meant to be a family and have made Pastors 'Professional Christians'

On your second point yes it was said we will have few 'Fathers' but this denotes a weakness in the Church not a strength.

Last point - yes we are active in hosting - including singles.

Psalm 27 · Jul 16, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
We seem to be light years away from the loving relationships recorded in early Acts.

And that didn't seem to last very long.

The early church devoted themselves to the apostles teaching, fellowship, breaking of bread and prayer AND THE LORD ADDED TO THEIR NUMBER DAILY.
Where did it all go wrong?

Carl Emerson · Jul 16, 2022

Psalm 27 said:
And that didn't seem to last very long.

The early church devoted themselves to the apostles teaching, fellowship, breaking of bread and prayer AND THE LORD ADDED TO THEIR NUMBER DAILY.
Where did it all go wrong?

The enemy got in there real fast and determined to snuff it out ASP.

Now we are too proud to return to the pattern initially embraced by the early church.

We refuse to take it seriously and build a theology to protect ourselves from it.

Too dangerous in todays society we are told.

Frankly I think only persecution will get us back on track.

For the record I am deeply committed to Church and do what I can from within.

Paidiske · Jul 16, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Pastors fall often because they become isolated encounter temptations beyond their endurance and have no friends to stand with.

I absolutely agree that isolation and lack of friendship is a problem for pastors. But I disagree that they should be looking for their congregation to solve that problem. You can't burden your congregation with your issues. I'm more inclined to look for closer collaboration and more team ministry.

And the idea that congregation should think of their pastor as part of the extended family just comes across as eroding things which are absolutely essential to the pastor's wellbeing; like a day off (because family don't take "days off" from each other, do they?), or a family home which allows for personal space or family time without interruption.

Carl Emerson · Jul 16, 2022

Paidiske said:
I absolutely agree that isolation and lack of friendship is a problem for pastors. But I disagree that they should be looking for their congregation to solve that problem. You can't burden your congregation with your issues. I'm more inclined to look for closer collaboration and more team ministry.

And the idea that congregation should think of their pastor as part of the extended family just comes across as eroding things which are absolutely essential to the pastor's wellbeing; like a day off (because family don't take "days off" from each other, do they?), or a family home which allows for personal space or family time without interruption.

Sadly it seems that you concept of family is of a dysfunctional unit.

The family of God is not.

A functional family cares about and supports members.

Suggesting we need a business contract to sustain Church leaders is deeply flawed.

This puts contract at the heart of relationships rather than Love.

However I am aware of the fact that the horse has bolted on these issues and nothing short of a miracle will bring us back to the loving family model which in most cases is long gone.

RDKirk · Jul 16, 2022

Psalm 27 said:
And that didn't seem to last very long.

The early church devoted themselves to the apostles teaching, fellowship, breaking of bread and prayer AND THE LORD ADDED TO THEIR NUMBER DAILY.
Where did it all go wrong?

It's still happening.

You may not see it happening in the West, but the West is not the totality of the Body of Christ. The West is not even the most energetic limb of the Body of Christ. Over the last 50 years, a Great Awakening has been happening in the Far East, and it's been creeping Westward.

Carl Emerson · Jul 16, 2022

RDKirk said:
It's still happening.

You may not see it happening in the West, but the West is not the totality of the Body of Christ. The West is not even the most energetic limb of the Body of Christ. Over the last 50 years, a Great Awakening has been happening in the Far East, and it's been creeping Westward.

Also pockets in Africa?

seeking.IAM · Jul 16, 2022

In my own experience, I have to say of course Christians can have friends, but I'm not sure you'll find them at church. If you don't believe that, try leaving your present church for a new one and see how many of your former "church" friends stick with you.

I was a member of church for over 20 years, taught Sunday School, held administrative positions, was part of a fellowship group, made the coffee on Sunday morning, and got together with "friends" outside of church. And then I left. And the folks I thought were friends quickly drifted away.

I think church friends are bonded only by their common church affiliation. Other friends are bonded over a wider variety of interests, commonalities, respect, and affection. Today, I have Christian friends but they don't go to my church. And, I have people I am friendly with at my church, but I am under no illusion that the relationships would continue if I started worshipping elsewhere..

Paidiske · Jul 16, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Sadly it seems that you concept of family is of a dysfunctional unit.

Families certainly can be. But what I am trying to get across is that expecting your pastor to be "family" to every person in their congregation is not sustainable or reasonable.

Carl Emerson said:
Suggesting we need a business contract to sustain Church leaders is deeply flawed.

I didn't suggest that. I suggested that we need role clarity and boundaries. That's an important part of caring about and supporting people, actually.

Carl Emerson said:
However I am aware of the fact that the horse has bolted on these issues and nothing short of a miracle will bring us back to the loving family model which in most cases is long gone.

You started a thread in Christian advice about friendship. The advice I gave you was not to look to your minister to be your close friend. Turning that around into a guilt trip because you want something different isn't actually going to help you build the friendship that's apparently so important to you.

StillGods · Jul 16, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
On your first point I guess I disagree.

Pastors fall often because they become isolated encounter temptations beyond their endurance and have no friends to stand with.

This model to me is seriously flawed.

We ignore that church is meant to be a family and have made Pastors 'Professional Christians'

On your second point yes it was said we will have few 'Fathers' but this denotes a weakness in the Church not a strength.

Last point - yes we are active in hosting - including singles.

I wonder if pastors fall because the congregation expect too much from them and everyone expects them to be their friend and its all too much expectation on them maybe.

Its really great to hear you invite singles over that is seriously awesome!

The church is flawed i agree, of course because we are human. i dont think you or i can change that there are few fathers in the faith. we can pray for the church but otherwise all we can do is try to love the church as best we can and pray to God that the need we have to be "Fathered" is met in our Heavenly Father. I think it is easier for us to seek being Fathered by people than to seek God the Father for that need so maybe God takes people away so we will seek Him - its just something i wonder if He does sometimes, well in my life He does that sometimes so I will seek Him first for the needs in my life not go to people who can never meet them anyway.

Carl Emerson · Jul 17, 2022

Paidiske said:
Families certainly can be. But what I am trying to get across is that expecting your pastor to be "family" to every person in their congregation is not sustainable or reasonable.

I didn't suggest that. I suggested that we need role clarity and boundaries. That's an important part of caring about and supporting people, actually.

You started a thread in Christian advice about friendship. The advice I gave you was not to look to your minister to be your close friend. Turning that around into a guilt trip because you want something different isn't actually going to help you build the friendship that's apparently so important to you.

This was never about church leaders specifically but the lack of family in Church life.

Frankly I think it is appalling and a travesty that some defend the impersonal setup that many churches suffer under. No wonder the church is not seen as attractive to the world.
Jesus spoke about a visible unity that healthy fellowship has and some argue we don't need it - who do we believe?

Paidiske · Jul 17, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Frankly I think it is appalling and a travesty that some defend the impersonal setup that many churches suffer under.

Here's the problem, though. Just because your clergy aren't your close friends or "family" doesn't mean the relationship is impersonal. And starting out by claiming that "church leaders don't visit" (which is just not true; and I notice you never answered my question about if your minister refused to come when invited), which is what prompted me to respond in the first place, doesn't help.

Clearly you want a particular style of relationship. And it's okay to have that desire. But turning around and attacking other people for not providing what you want, on the terms you want it, is a real problem. Especially when it's explained to you that there are likely very good reasons why that isn't happening.

I'll give you an example. The regulations I work under mean I am not allowed to babysit a child in my pastoral care. Because that is seen as cultivating a personal relationship outside my professional role, and potentially grooming behaviour. It would be normal for a friend - or family - to share babysitting or the like, perhaps on a reciprocal basis, but that's something I can't do. And that's just one example that happens to be clearly spelled out.

Carl Emerson said:
Jesus spoke about a visible unity that healthy fellowship has and some argue we don't need it - who do we believe?

I'm arguing that your preferred model isn't the only way to live as healthy Christian community; and in fact, an attitude of entitlement around other people's style of relating is not likely to be a basis for healthy fellowship!

Carl Emerson · Jul 17, 2022

StillGods said:
I wonder if pastors fall because the congregation expect too much from them and everyone expects them to be their friend and its all too much expectation on them maybe.

Its really great to hear you invite singles over that is seriously awesome!

The church is flawed i agree, of course because we are human. i dont think you or i can change that there are few fathers in the faith. we can pray for the church but otherwise all we can do is try to love the church as best we can and pray to God that the need we have to be "Fathered" is met in our Heavenly Father. I think it is easier for us to seek being Fathered by people than to seek God the Father for that need so maybe God takes people away so we will seek Him - its just something i wonder if He does sometimes, well in my life He does that sometimes so I will seek Him first for the needs in my life not go to people who can never meet them anyway.

Yes I largely agree but our love for each other is meant to be attractive to the world as Jesus says in John 17.

Family love strikes a chord with the unsaved and they have a feeling about coming home as they travel towards fellowship.

Carl Emerson · Jul 17, 2022

Paidiske said:
Here's the problem, though. Just because your clergy aren't your close friends or "family" doesn't mean the relationship is impersonal. And starting out by claiming that "church leaders don't visit" (which is just not true; and I notice you never answered my question about if your minister refused to come when invited), which is what prompted me to respond in the first place, doesn't help.

Clearly you want a particular style of relationship. And it's okay to have that desire. But turning around and attacking other people for not providing what you want, on the terms you want it, is a real problem. Especially when it's explained to you that there are likely very good reasons why that isn't happening.

I'll give you an example. The regulations I work under mean I am not allowed to babysit a child in my pastoral care. Because that is seen as cultivating a personal relationship outside my professional role, and potentially grooming behaviour. It would be normal for a friend - or family - to share babysitting or the like, perhaps on a reciprocal basis, but that's something I can't do. And that's just one example that happens to be clearly spelled out.

I'm arguing that your preferred model isn't the only way to live as healthy Christian community; and in fact, an attitude of entitlement around other people's style of relating is not likely to be a basis for healthy fellowship!

Ok lets investigate what is truth...

How many readers have had an impromptu visit at their home by a church leader in the last year ???

I don't have a beef with my immediate leader - it is not about me and my church experience or leader ship specifically - I rather point out a serious lack of family in the churches in general.

This is coupled with the teaching that insists we ignore the way the church formed and operated in early Acts.

Paidiske · Jul 17, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
How many readers have had an impromptu visit at their home by a church leader in the last year ???

Who said anything about impromptu? (Ugh, I'd hate an impromptu visit from anyone!)

Carl Emerson said:
This is coupled with the teaching that insists we ignore the way the church formed and operated in early Acts.

Are you assuming that
a) the way the church operated in early Acts was perfect?
b) the way the church operated in Acts needs no adaptation to our own cultural and social context?

Carl Emerson · Jul 17, 2022

Paidiske said:
an attitude of entitlement around other people's style of relating is not likely to be a basis for healthy fellowship!

So encouraging following the scripture is labeled 'entitlement'...

Make it what you want, but as a church leader I would have thought you would encourage following our examples of healthy fellowship in Scripture.

Is it 'normal' for believers to have friends?

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