Is it enough to make you stop buying?

[ReformedChapin]

What exactly do you propose Christians do?

What I've been proposing all along. Not support companies that are putting workers in these conditions. Vote with your dollar.

Who chooses which issues we fight as a Christian union? You?

Yes, millions of injustices in the world. You forget we live in a fallen world where we can only deal with major issues that deal with doctrine.

What? We can only deal with major issues that deal with doctrine? Is that what MLK Jr. was doing? Is that what Mother Theressa was doing? Seriously? Are you suggesting that Jesus just told us to "only deal with issues that concern doctrine. Don't worry about any small things, just the major ones?"

MLK was dealing with a doctrinal issue. Churches back then were justifying racial slavery with that of biblical slavery.

That's not the Jesus I've read.

What you are doing is bring up an irrelevant issue to try to justify a sin. It's impossible (realistically) to help all of the injustices of the world.

I must be daft. What sin am I trying to justify here? Morals? Yes, that's a huge sin. Caring about the welfare of people in China who don't have rights? Yes, that's a huge sin. Trying to help people? Yeah, Jesus never did that.

And please, what irrelevant issue am I bring up? How is anything I've said irrelevant?

And no, it's not impossible. Isn't the whole point of Christianity to change the earth, making disciples of everybody, and advancing the Kingdom of God?

Why are you bring this whole thing up in a debate about homosexuality? Because you are trying to justify homosexuality because conservatives have choosen to fight this SIN that is infultrating the church.

 

[Candide]

Who chooses which issues we fight as a Christian union? You?

I'm as qualified as you are. I don't advocate that any one person decide which issues we fight. Why not avoid this problem and simply fight them all?

MLK was dealing with a doctrinal issue. Churches back then were justifying racial slavery with that of biblical slavery.

Not going to argue. But Mother Theressa? Many of the other Christians in America and other nations working to combat extreme poverty and other (biblical) issues? Are they wrong in doing so?

Why are you bring this whole thing up in a debate about homosexuality? Because you are trying to justify homosexuality because conservatives have choosen to fight this SIN that is infultrating the church.

Is poverty not a SIN that is infiltrating the Church? Oppression?

I'm bring this up in a debate about homosexuality, because it seems that there are many, many more important SINS that need to be dealt with. True, it may be more difficult (and uncomfortable?) to deal with poverty and other horrible things, but we're talking about the welfare of people here. The Bible speaks much more about poverty than it does about homosexuality (at least that is what I've heard). And anyway, it's not a matter of which sin is bigger. I'm simply saying that there are many better (and more Christian, Kingdom advancing) reasons to boycott a company than "they support homosexuals". Why not boycott the other companies as well?

 

[ReformedChapin]

Who chooses which issues we fight as a Christian union? You?

I'm as qualified as you are. I don't advocate that any one person decide which issues we fight. Why not avoid this problem and simply fight them all?

Because it's unrealistic. We are not trying to build a eutopian world...we can't. And I never stated my position is higher than yours. I just support decision to fight homosexuality...if you want to add to it make it your own.

MLK was dealing with a doctrinal issue. Churches back then were justifying racial slavery with that of biblical slavery.

Not going to argue. But Mother Theressa? Many of the other Christians in America and other nations working to combat extreme poverty and other (biblical) issues? Are they wrong in doing so?

This issue is irrelavant in this forum.

Why are you bring this whole thing up in a debate about homosexuality? Because you are trying to justify homosexuality because conservatives have choosen to fight this SIN that is infultrating the church.

Is poverty not a SIN that is infiltrating the Church? Oppression?

I'm bring this up in a debate about homosexuality, because it seems that there are many, many more important SINS that need to be dealt with. True, it may be more difficult (and uncomfortable?) to deal with poverty and other horrible things, but we're talking about the welfare of people here. The Bible speaks much more about poverty than it does about homosexuality (at least that is what I've heard). And anyway, it's not a matter of which sin is bigger. I'm simply saying that there are many better (and more Christian, Kingdom advancing) reasons to boycott a company than "they support homosexuals".

Nope. Chuches through out the world are already trying to help poverty and other issues. But perverting the scriptures with homosexuality is just another issue needs to be dealt with right now since ideals like those can only harm the christian world view.

 

[Candide]

But too many people simply just stop at "not supporting a company because they support homosexuals".

Why not boycott the other companies, who are committing many other horrible sins, instead of supporting them and their sins?

We are not trying to build a eutopian world...we can't.

So that whole "the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand" deal just doesn't matter? What's the point of being here if not to advance the Kingdom of God?

 

[ReformedChapin]

But too many people simply just stop at "not supporting a company because they support homosexuals".

Why not boycott the other companies, who are committing many other horrible sins?

We are not trying to build a eutopian world...we can't.

So that whole "the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand" deal just doesn't matter? What's the point of being here if not to advance the Kingdom of God?

Advacing the kingdom of God is proclaiming the Gosple. That does involve some social issues but we cannot deal with them all. It's impossible..I don't understand why you cannot understand that.

I am not aware of other sins being commited by companies. Many in which Christians work with and are part of a global economy. I don't know how we could boycot everything. You propose a bold plan but there is no progmatic way of approaching it.

 

[Candide]

Advacing the kingdom of God is proclaiming the Gosple. That does involve some social issues but we cannot deal with them all. It's impossible..I don't understand why you cannot understand that.

So there are things that are impossible for God?

I am not aware of other sins being commited by companies. Many in which Christians work with and are part of a globale economy. I don't know how we could boycot everything. You propose a bold plan but there is no progmatic way of approaching it.

We've already been over this. Many companies (WalMart, as already mentioned) are keeping their workers impoverished. StarBucks (and most other commercial coffee chains) basically steal coffee from South American coffee farmers, effectively keeping them impoverished (and contributing to the poverty). Many food organizations and other organizations that are outsourcing jobs are not paying their workers anything close to fair wages, and are contributing to the very, very poor conditions of the world.

And there is a pragmatic way of approaching it. I've already mentioned it. Grow your own food, or buy food that you know is from farmers and companies that give their workers fair wages. Buy FairTrade products. Volunteer at a Food Co-op. There are sooooo many ways to do this.

Why not?

You're right, there is no pragmatic way of going about this if you're unwilling to sacrifice the rich luxury that you live in now...

 

[ReformedChapin]

Advacing the kingdom of God is proclaiming the Gosple. That does involve some social issues but we cannot deal with them all. It's impossible..I don't understand why you cannot understand that.

So there are things that are impossible for God?

God will proclaim his kingdom in his time. Not ours.

I am not aware of other sins being commited by companies. Many in which Christians work with and are part of a globale economy. I don't know how we could boycot everything. You propose a bold plan but there is no progmatic way of approaching it.

We've already been over this. Many companies (WalMart, as already mentioned) are keeping their workers impoverished. StarBucks (and most other commercial coffee chains) basically steal coffee from South American coffee farmers, effectively keeping them impoverished (and contributing to the poverty). Many food organizations and other organizations that are outsourcing jobs are not paying their workers anything close to fair wages, and are contributing to the very, very poor conditions of the world.

Yes we have dealt with this but you don't seem to understand the obvious that we cannot deal with it. Why don't you try reviving the dead while you are at it?

 

[Candide]

God will proclaim his kingdom in his time. Not ours.

But following your earlier logic (advancing the kingdom = creating disciples), God asks us to advance his Kingdom. (Again, I point to Jesus, "The Kingdom of God is at hand").

Yes we have dealt with this but you don't seem to understand the obvious that we cannot deal with it. Why don't you try reviving the dead while you are at it?

You can do it. There are people now who are doing the very things I mentioned and (*gasp*) more!. Like I said, we are only unable to do it if we are unwilling to give up our amazing amount of luxury. And people just need to admit that that's a sacrifice they're not willing to make.

 

[ReformedChapin]

God will proclaim his kingdom in his time. Not ours.

But following your earlier logic (advancing the kingdom = creating disciples), God asks us to advance his Kingdom. (Again, I point to Jesus, "The Kingdom of God is at hand").

We cannot create disciples with our own will but must be supported by God. That's exactly what I mean by proclaiming the Gosple.

Yes we have dealt with this but you don't seem to understand the obvious that we cannot deal with it. Why don't you try reviving the dead while you are at it?

You can do it. There are people now who are doing the very things I mentioned and (*gasp*) more!. Like I said, we are only unable to do it if we are unwilling to give up our amazing amount of luxury. And people just need to admit that that's a sacrifice they're not willing to make.

Nope, it's just unrealistic hope.

 

[Candide]

We cannot create disciples with our own will but must be supported by God. That's exactly what I mean by proclaiming the Gosple.

Right. So God can advance his Kingdom through us. Meaning that when we do work to advance his Kingdom, he will bring the Kingdom of Heaven, which will be this "utopia" that I am foolishly advocating.

Nope, it's just unrealistic hope.

Because the American church is lazy, or not dedicated. This is what I'm saying. It's possible (people do it), but those who don't and still call themselves Christians are just not dedicated or whatever you want to call it, and unwilling to change (which seems like a big SIN that needs to be dealt with, if you ask me. Let's take the plank out of our own eye...).

 

[ReformedChapin]

We cannot create disciples with our own will but must be supported by God. That's exactly what I mean by proclaiming the Gosple..
Right. So God can advance his Kingdom through us. Meaning that when we do work to advance his Kingdom, he will bring the Kingdom of Heaven, which will be this "utopia" that I am foolishly advocating..

No it doesn't.

Nope, it's just unrealistic hope.

Because the American church is lazy, or not dedicated. This is what I'm saying. It's possible (people do it), but those who don't and still call themselves Christians are just not dedicated or whatever you want to call it, and unwilling to change (which seems like a big SIN that needs to be dealt with, if you ask me. Let's take the plank out of our own eye...).

Nope. And calling the church lazy because they don't follow your insane plans isn't going to change much.

 

[Candide]

No it doesn't.

Care to elaborate, please?

Nope. And calling the church lazy because they don't follow your insane plans isn't going to change much.

How are my plans crazy or unrealistic?

Not shopping at WalMart or StarBucks....buying Fair Trade stuff...

Please point out the crazy or unrealistic part. Really.

Please.

 

[ReformedChapin]

No it doesn't.

Care to elaborate, please?

Nope. And calling the church lazy because they don't follow your insane plans isn't going to change much.

How are my plans crazy or unrealistic?

Not shopping at WalMart or StarBucks....buying Fair Trade stuff...

Please point out the crazy or unrealistic part. Really.

Please.

First of all, WHY should we boycott those companies and not millions of others that have sins as you stated? Why boycot them insted of homosexual supporters?

And no I don't care to elaborate considering this conversation is irrelvant to this forum.

 

[Candide]

I give up. This is ridiculous, and I feel no need to debate anything else if all you're going to do is say "nuh-uh!".

I'm saying that there are many more vicious things going on than homosexuality, and there are many injustices that need righting, and that's not going to happen by people going around and boycotting companies because they support gay people. There are people starving out there because of companies like WalMart, but not many "Christians" are boycotting that sin, and I find that ridiculous and hypocritical. I think that through this "homosexual" crap, the people in the church are looking for an excuse to say "we're trying to right the wrongs" without really doing anything. God loves gay people, and he commands you to do the same.

 

[ReformedChapin]

I give up. This is ridiculous, and I feel no need to debate anything else if all you're going to do is say "nuh-uh!".

I'm saying that there are many more vicious things going on than homosexuality, and there are many injustices that need righting, and that's not going to happen by people going around and boycotting companies because they support gay people. There are people starving out there because of companies like WalMart, but not many "Christians" are boycotting that sin, and I find that ridiculous and hypocritical. I think that through this "homosexual" crap, the people in the church are looking for an excuse to say "we're trying to right the wrongs" without really doing anything. God loves gay people, and he commands you to do the same.

I'm not saying nah-huh, I'm saying you are propossing something impossible in the WRONG Forum. You just can't seem to accept that.

And I do love gay people, I love them so much I want them to repent from their sin.

 

[united4Peace]

Follow the discussion please. There is far more to this than just the subject of homosexuality.

Recently, AFA (and many "pro-family" groups) have decided to boycott against Ford for their support of homosexuality. They've celebrated that Ford's sales have gone down 7%. I find this very spiteful though. Not because it's against homosexuality. But because it's probably leaving hundreds of innocent or neutral people jobless because if this selfish want to get rid of that opinion (which is all it is, an opinion).

Is the support of homosexuality enough to make you stop buying?

To some people, they feel they're supporting it by giving their money to the company. I say, so? You're not supporting that cause. You're buying a new car which you will hopefully enjoy. Once you give them the money, it is not longer yours, it is theres. They can use it in any way they desire. Also, by not buying, you're putting a dent not in the head of the company that you WANT to effect, but in the small branches that have no say in the matter. In that effect, hundreds of those who don't neccesarily agree with Ford's opinions are now jobless.

Boycotting because of homosexual support is foolish, selfish, and not in God's plan. It's actually possibly putting a dent in God's plan by effectively changing the livelihood of those who work with homosexual-supporting big companies.

I repeat the question, is it enough to make you stop buying?

I prefer Chev...

Nothing against Ford...(found on road dead)

Although now adays I suppose it just doesnt matter what one buys...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6gpB_Trvo8