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LinkH

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Let's suppose this man Bob asks you for advice.

Bob is 45 years old. He's been married since he was 20 and has one daughter, who is 23 years old and out of college. Bob tells you his wife, Mary, has been a reasonably good wife. She gets a little emotional and says embarrassing things in social situations sometimes, but she is a good mother. Unfortunately, Mary has gotten kind chubby and wrinkly in recent years. Bob has stayed thin, fit, and trim. Bob also finds that his sex life with Mary is boring. It's always been a bit boring. She is a willing partner, but a rather boring and unskilled one. Mary did work to help put Bob through a top-rate MBA program after he'd worked in Finance for years. After the program was finished, they went to New York, where he went to work where a firm which, last year, employed him as a hedge fund manager.

Bob is at the pinnacle of his career. It also turns out that a lot of beautiful, young women find successful men his age very attractive. Bob hasn't picked anyone out, but he knows that if he were to divorce, he would have his pick of bright, successful, exciting young women lining up to marry him.

Bob is a church-going man. He has a friend who has explained to him that it is not a sin for Bob to divorce Mary and marry a younger woman, just as long as Bob gives her a divorce certificate.

Bob has been thinking long and hard about this. His daughter is grown, so he doesn't have to worry about a step-daughter raising his daughter. He's well-off now and he doesn't mind splitting half his worldly goods and even paying some alimony to Mary. She's earned it, and he earns so much now as a hedge fund manager, he could afford that and a new family. He could also get someone fresh and exciting, someone more self-controlled and less embarrassing in social situations, and someone more exciting to him sexually if he were to remarry.

Bob has another friend who has explained to him that what he is contemplating is adultery, that if he divorced his wife, who'd been faithful to him, and remarried, that he would be committing adultery, because the original plan from the beginning was that two should be one flesh. And what God has joined together, no man should put asunder.

Bob and Mary were married in a ceremony where they agreed to take one another as husband and wife, by a preacher in a church, actually. But for some reason, they did not take vows such as 'till death do us part.'

If Bob gives Mary the proper paperwork, including a certificate of divorce, is it a sin for Bob to divorce Mary? Btw, this is hypothetical, so you won't be advising anyone in real life to divorce. What do you think?
 

ImaginaryDay

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Wait wait wait.

Bob needs a good...kicking before we even go any further. Forget the certificate or not, he is ALREADY in sin. The OUTCOME of the sin would be the divorce, not the divorce itself. Let me know if you (or Bob) need more help. I'll be here all week
 
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ChristianGolfer

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I think you put too much effort into winning this particular argument.

But your hypothetical has a problem in it. You're looking at it from Bob's point of view.

The point of requiring a certificate of divorce in this situation is so that MARY can remarry without sinning.

I know that you know that OT law would have allowed Bob to take another wife no matter what. He could have taken a younger wife and kept Mary, too. He could have sent Mary away and taken another wife. He could have divorced Mary and taken another wife.


I'm not one who goes around classifying things as sin and not-sin. That strikes me as being legalistic. Rather, the question to be asked is whether it is loving or not.

It's not loving or Christ-like for Bob to divorce his wife in the situation you described. It is, however, perfectly legal for him to do so.

You seem to me to focus so much on the letter of the law that you miss the spirit.
 
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ChristianGolfer

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When Jesus said that Moses allowed divorce because of the hardness of men's hearts do you think that means he was giving the hardhearted men a pass? Like God was saying "oh, well, I can't get them to be softhearted, so I'll go ahead and allow them to do this thing that I hate and so that way they won't be sinning when they do this thing that is hardhearted."

Nope.

It was because the hardness of men's hearts was causing damage to the women who were being abandoned. It was for the sake of the victims, not for the sake of the hardhearted men that Moses allowed divorce.
 
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ImaginaryDay

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I appreciate your viewpoint here. I wish that more men would...
 
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RoseWater

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Yeah, it's a sin. Bob wants to drink from the well of the world. And, if he pursues it, he will never be satisfied in this life. It sounds like he is willing to sell his soul for temporary pleasure. Only God can provide true fulfillment. This comes by seeking to please God and following His ways. God can bless Bob, if only Bob would seek His face and ask God to change him and to help his marriage. Bob's solution will not be found in divorcing his wife, there will only be more problems with that. People reap what they sow.
 
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LinkH

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But your hypothetical has a problem in it. You're looking at it from Bob's point of view.

The point of requiring a certificate of divorce in this situation is so that MARY can remarry without sinning.

I'm not one who goes around classifying things as sin and not-sin. That strikes me as being legalistic.

Why? Didn't the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles?

Rather, the question to be asked is whether it is loving or not.

It's not loving or Christ-like for Bob to divorce his wife in the situation you described. It is, however, perfectly legal for him to do so.

Part of my point in writing the scenario was to demonstrate how unloving the Pharisaical (Hillel) position on divorce that many of our posters seem to support actually is.

You seem to me to focus so much on the letter of the law that you miss the spirit.

You say it is legalistic to call things sin, but you make accusations like this.
 
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LinkH

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Fair point. But Christ forbidding divorce in most cases was also good for women, women like Mary in the scenario above.

Bob dumping Mary is being unloving. It is also explicitly disobeying what Christ said as recorded in Matthew 19.
 
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LinkH

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Bob's friend who advised divorce in my hypothetical scenario could have gotten his ideas from reading your posts and the divorce hope website.

Even though 'legally' you believe that it is acceptable for people to divorce if the man gives his wife a certificate of divorce, a practical example of it doesn't sit well with you. If it is not sinful for Bob to put away his wife, why do you think Bob is wrong to do it?

It's not a sin to eat cheese. You shouldn't say that the events leading up to eating cheese must be sinful.

What's sinful about Bob's reasoning here? What if Bob thinks, for some reason, that Mary might be more happy without him? Would it be okay for Bob to set Mary free, let her find herself, be more independent, and find someone who she'd be more excited about?

What is it about Bob divorcing Mary, who has her flaws but has been faithful to him, that you find sinful or distasteful?

What if Bob and Mary both wanted to call it quits and each find someone else they found more exciting? Would that be okay with you--- as long as Bob gave Mary the proper certificate?
 
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ValleyGal

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The divorcehope website is very clear that they do not advocate running to divorce court for any and every little disagreement or whim. It is quite biblically clear that God expects us to do all we can to live at peace with our spouse, as far as it depends on us. But that's as far as it goes. Divorcehope does not advocate divorce; they offer HOPE for those who have been divorced, sharing the great mercy of our Heavenly Father who loves us enough to provide a way out of bitter, painful, adulterous, or abusive marriages.

God is a God of justice, and there is no justice without mercy. Mercy is a necessary part of God's character. It is found in the Lord Jesus, who died for the very sins that lead to divorce. This is why we have divorce. We live in a sinful world with sinful spouses, and sometimes that sin leads to divorce, which is the relief mercy provides.

Also consider the love imperative in marriage ethics. The love imperative seeks your spouse's best interest. When one spouse stops loving the other, the most loving thing they can do is provide the divorce certificate so they are free to remarry. The God I know and love provides this as an extension of his mercy...so that we do not have to pay for the sins of our spouse who divorces us. Why should Mary have to pay for the sins of her husband? She shouldn't. Jesus died for that sin already, paying the price once and for all - so Mary doesn't have to. Yes, she will grieve and that is joining Jesus in His suffering, but she is not responsible for it. But she would be responsible for it if she were not allowed to divorce and remarry. Otherwise, Jesus' death would be for naught.

If two people seek the Kingdom first, and are selfless enough to pour themselves out for the sake of their spouse, and if they serve one another in humility, placing the other ahead of self, there would not be any need for divorce. This, of course, is God's ideal. But we don't live in an ideal world. This is why we have divorce. It is the merciful side of a loving God of justice.

This conversation is far too personal for me, so I will bow out. I am far too easily offended when people start talking about how we only get one shot at marriage and only the first marriage is "legit" and how subsequent marriage is a "state of sin" and all that. I am offended because my current marriage is more blessed and God-honouring than any of my previous marriages. It is more spiritually "legitimate" and grounded in the faith than my previous. To be told that I'm in sin or that it's illegitimate, etc is in fact condemning, and I firmly stand on what Paul says in Romans, that there is now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ. I also stand firm in the promise that Jesus died once and for all, so that I don't have to sacrifice myself for the sins of my husband. I stand firm, knowing that God has brought A34 into my heart, my life and my home as a generous and merciful gift, to be a model of the very love of Christ, and to teach me to be able to love with that same sacrificial love. No one can convince me that God did not intend for my divorces to be for my best interest and the best interest of my son, because we love the Lord, and because I stand on the promise that God's going to use all things - ALL, including divorce - for His glory and for the good of those who love him.

And I pray that anyone reading any of these threads on divorce will be free from the condemnation of legalism, who prohibits anyone from marrying, which is sin. And I pray that those reading this will know the love and compassion of the Lord, demonstrated by his mercy and blesses those who call on him. And I pray for all those divorced people out there, that they will not be under the thumb of legalism that would keep them from living in the freedom that Christ died for. And I pray for anyone in a horrible marriage, where there is strife, bitterness, hard hearts, adultery, abuse, addictions, contempt, or any other constant sin, that God will set them free from legalistic thinking, and provide them with a deep sense of how great his mercy is in providing a way out so that those spouses are not destroyed by the sins of their spouse. And I pray for those who are legalistic in their thinking, who would forbid divorce in extreme situations where both spouses have done all they could do as far as it depends on them, that you will soften their hearts and their legalism so that they will not pass their judgements and condemnation as the self-righteous Pharisees did in Jesus' day. And I pray that those same judgements will not come down on those who make them because just as Pharaoh came to regret his curse, these legalists will come come to regret theirs....and I pray this in the stead of the Lord Jesus, the one who died for such sins as the judger, the Pharisee, and the selfish spouse alike, whose compassion fixes the brokenhearted and whose wellspring of mercy is great.
 
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ImaginaryDay

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Bob's friend who advised divorce in my hypothetical scenario could have gotten his ideas from reading your posts and the divorce hope website.

Bob's friend could do nothing of the sort. He would need to read my thread history to see what I really believe. We've had several of these types of conversations about divorce before. I'm surprised that you don't understand my POV fully yet either.


As I said, the sin is not in the divorce, but in the behavior that leads to the divorce action. Bob was clearly in the wrong and outside the will of God long before any notion of divorce hit his mind. Bob is wrong and in sin because he is acting out of his own desires and not out of a life that is guided by the Spirit.

It's not a sin to eat cheese. You shouldn't say that the events leading up to eating cheese must be sinful.

Now you are being obtuse.

What's sinful about Bob's reasoning here? What if Bob thinks, for some reason, that Mary might be more happy without him?

Again, this is "Bob's reasoning". He is not acting out of a life led by the Spirit, but out of his own selfish desires. At this stage, he's gone deeper by considering that his wife might be "more happy without him" - a wrong assessment. Selfish desire clouds the thinking and tells us that all will be fine for all affected, however sin only leads to destruction.

Would it be okay for Bob to set Mary free, let her find herself, be more independent, and find someone who she'd be more excited about?

Of course it wouldn't be okay. More selfish thinking, grounded in sin.

What is it about Bob divorcing Mary, who has her flaws but has been faithful to him, that you find sinful

See above

or distasteful?

Nothing to do with taste.

What if Bob and Mary both wanted to call it quits and each find someone else they found more exciting? Would that be okay with you--- as long as Bob gave Mary the proper certificate?

If Mary begins to believe that Bob has found an alternative to their marriage that is "more exciting", then Bob is all the more responsible for the sin that has led to this state of their marriage. If the husband is the 'head' then he is responsible for the state of the home as well as his wife's well-being. With any hope at all he will repent before the ink is dry on the paper. The paper is the end result of the sin, not the sin itself.

Bob's behavior reminds me of an old song from Pink Floyd:

One slip, and down the hole we fall
It seems to take no time at all
A momentary lapse of reason
That binds a life for life
A small regret, you won't forget,
There'll be no sleep in here tonight
 
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LinkH

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apostolic34,

Our hypothetical husband Bob clearly has a skewed perception of things. So let's consider another couple. They marry in Vegas, but after a short while, both consider that their decision was foolish. Neither one of them has any animosity toward the other. Neither has cheated. But they both feel no spark after a week or two.

Each both believes the loving thing is to divorce. Given your belief that divorce itself is not a sin, is there any reason you should have a problem with the idea of a couple like this divorcing? Is there any reason you would have for advising against it?

If divorce (other than for fornication) were not a sin, then why would the couple in my scenario have to commit some sin to get a divorce?
 
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Inkachu

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I appreciate VG's point, and it's something I hadn't really thought about before. If your spouse divorces you OR abuses you to the point where you have to flee the marriage, how are you to blame (how have you sinned)? You haven't. And as VG said, to force that person to remain in a marriage covenant (saying they can't remarry) that they didn't voluntarily destroy, but were victimized by its destruction, is to say that there is no mercy, no grace, and that the other spouse's sin is on the victim's shoulders forever. That does not match up with who God is or how He operates. If, for example, you get married, and your wife runs off with another man and you can't track her down for an "official" divorce proceeding - to say that you're still married to her for the rest of your life seems preposterous. SHE'S the one who sinned, but YOU'RE the one paying for it.

Just thinking out loud here, I may be wrong on some points.
 
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Inkachu

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Definitely some interesting points that you don't hear much. I'd always assumed the first example was what it meant, but in reflection, the second one makes so much more sense.
 
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Inkachu

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I also agree with Apostolic that Bob's "sin" began way before he started contemplating divorce. The moment his eye and his mind began to stray from his own wife, the sin began. The idea of divorce is just the maturing of that sin.

James 1:14-15 shows that sin grows and develops from one stage to another; it begins as a thought and manifests as actions. "But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death."
 
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ChristianGolfer

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Why? Didn't the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles?

I said why. Because I think it's legalistic. It's focused on rules rather than on the heart.

And I'm not Jesus, a prophet or an apostle.


Part of my point in writing the scenario was to demonstrate how unloving the Pharisaical (Hillel) position on divorce that many of our posters seem to support actually is.

I don't think anyone actually supports such a position. I think you've built a straw-man so you can win an argument.


You say it is legalistic to call things sin, but you make accusations like this.

Did I say you were sinning? Nope.

It is interesting, though, that it bothers you. You don't have any problem telling other people they're in the wrong, even living in sin, but you get your feathers ruffled when someone suggests you're looking at the letter of the law instead of the spirit.

You can dish criticism but can't take it, huh?
 
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Hetta

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So that scenario is supposed to make women put themselves into Mary's shoes and change their minds? LOL. Unfortunately it has all of the OP's prejudices glaring so brightly. The plump and boring wife who doesn't put out enough .. the wonderful man who is so perfect.

Mary would be better off letting that loser go - he's already preparing for it anyway, and has evidently committed adultery in his heart. She can get a nice settlement and then get herself to a gym, get into shape, and go and find a young and successful man whose lovemaking might be exciting rather than as boring as old Bob's has always been. Old Bob will soon develop ED, need Viagra, which will interfere with his heart's function - his heart which is exhausted from all that stress, sneaking around chasing younger women - so he'll probably have a huge heart attack in a couple of years and leave his wife and daughter very well off.
 
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Annessa3

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Bob is a jerk. Mary is living a Spirit filled life, staying married to this tool.
Where is Bob's Christianity? Oh wait, you never mentioned he was Christian... and he certainly doesn't think like any Christian man I know.

So why would I bother to impose my beliefs on Bob? My values are obviously not his.
 
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