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Is it a sin to be forced to kill someone in combat

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inquisitor_11

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I'm about to quit over just that blurriness- I've pretty much in mind finally resolved myself to the fact that I can no longer give the army an almost unconditional willingness to kill on demand, and still somhow be a christian. I don't think that pure pacifism is the christian way, but nor do I think that providing and maintaining a willing capability for killing en mass is very appropriate as a christian.

The line's real blurred, and I think I'm gonna move away from it.
 
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daidhaid

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I see it the way Ian sees it.
Specificaly that, Jesus of Nazareth wouldn't do the things a soldier does.
Sniping and certain other types of warfare are so extreme that it makes it easier to get off the fence. It makes the question obvious.
I personaly do not believe in sin.
I do believe in; right and wrong, good and evil, and all shades in between.
It is a Yin Yang viewpoint as I think of it. And there are shades and subtleties at every point.
In the Yin Yang even when perfectly balanced the small circle represents the opposite contained.
So I don't see sin and I don't think soldiers who kill in combat are automatically evil. They are however, participants in the very evil processes of war. But, it may be a situation they are unable to avoid...
Their actions as individuals will fall, wherever they merit, on the scale of right and wrong.
Time and how they process their experiences may influence the rightness and wrongness.

Here are just two extremes on the scale.
When a soldier kills usually he is keeping faith with his buddies, doing what has to be done to survive and prevail. He may not understand at the time but trusts his leaders and maybe even loves his country.
Other times killing is reveled in, exciting, indiscriminate, or emotionless, done because it can be done. No reason is needed any excuse will suffice.
I've seen soldiers who were taken aback, shocked, and saddened from killing and I've seen them elated and full of joy.
One may hope it doesn't have to happen again, while another may lust for another kill.
Most are somewhere between.

If you know your fighting the wrong war, if you think your actions are wrong, you should not do it.
Nor allow yourself to be persuaded to go against your heart.
Soldiers don't really get to make those choices they are sworn to obey another man.
You have to make the choice before the fact.
It isn't always cut and dried and therefore I do not decry or harsh out combat vets.
Because, they were there while we were here.

Still I don't think Jesus would have any good to say for killing his enemies.
The thing that really troubles me is that soldiers have to kill on demand.
It is one thing to pick up a weapon and fend off attackers and quite another to travel somewhere else and wage war because a politician told you to.

For those who just have to believe in sin this should be an additional burden. I doubt that you will be able to excuse sin by claiming you were following orders.
It will be an impossible situation at best, Cest La Guerre.

I don't feel good about trusting many politicians on important stuff like this.
I thought we might have learned a thing or two about that sort of thing but it seems that history isn't for everyone...
We the People have an obligation to use our soldiers wisely.
Rumsfield has said "soldiers are fungible" a sad state of affairs ensues.

I would't want my kids in the military, not because I don't respect even love the military.
But, because our leadership has not been truthful, and big money means more to them than our kids do.
I don't want the horrors of war to be an easy option for any president.
I want a capable, intelligent, deliberate, well intentioned and honest leadership.
At this point I want someone to unify us and work to a resolution,,, no more zealots no more divide and conquer type politicos no more fear mongering.
Lets hope for a Statesman, a stand up patriot.
Like the guys who wrote the Constituion and the Bill of Rights.
The foundation we are so busy avoiding today.
I know thats's a tall order but I'll take what I can get.

PS
If there is a sin in killing the enemy it is on the Governments involved.
 
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I so agree with you Daidhaid. Yesterday, I was reading that there are now over 10,000 Iraqis killed in this blood bath, not to mention our own soldiers nor the over 6,000 who have returned seriously injured. This makes me really sick to witness. I'm not sure that this country can survive four more years of this sort of pre-emptive mentality. I'm certainly hoping, praying and working for a change of command in the next few months. There is already noise from Washington about Iran. :scratch:
 
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DeltaJ

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hey in the bible God had the isrealites kill plenty of enemys. but just think off it this way. You are without a doubt one of the good guys, with the rare exception of collateral damage, the people you might have to kill hate you, hate your God, the freedoms you stand for, and get great pleasure out of slowly and painfully killing you and others like you. They thrive on killing innocent people to further their cause. they think it is a great pleasure to die for their cause for they think they will rewarded in heaven for their dispicable acts. they will fight to the death and must be stopped. the church says those whose wish to cause harm to defenless people must be rendered unable to do so by those in authority. in the army you are the authority. i hope this helps.
 
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inquisitor_11

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US_Marine_CPL_0311 said:
Well, let me tell you as someone who is coming back from the warzone....if you don't kill them, they will surely kill you, I don't know about you, but I still have a life to live.

Gee, I wonder why they're shooting at you...

You are without a doubt one of the good guys, with the rare exception of collateral damage, the people you might have to kill hate you, hate your God, the freedoms you stand for, and get great pleasure out of slowly and painfully killing you and others like you. They thrive on killing innocent people to further their cause. they think it is a great pleasure to die for their cause for they think they will rewarded in heaven for their dispicable acts. they will fight to the death and must be stopped

You know that the rest of the world thinks that about the USA's involvement... and not just in Iraq, but also in many other contexts around the world.
 
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DeltaJ

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inquisitor_11 said:
Gee, I wonder why they're shooting at you...



You know that the rest of the world thinks that about the USA's involvement... and not just in Iraq, but also in many other contexts around the world.

if the rest of the world thought that about us than why are their 30 something other countrys involved in iraq with us. Duh!
 
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alaurie

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CS Lewis quote- He not only was a linguist but was also a WWI veteran.


There are two Greek words: the ordinary word to kill and the word to murder. And when Christ quotes that commandment He uses the murder one in all three accounts, Matthew, Mark, and Luke. And I am told there is the same distinction in Hebrew. All killing is not murder any more than all sexual intercourse is adultery. When soldiers came to St. John the Baptist asking what to do, he never remotely suggested that they ought to leave the army: nor did Christ when He met a Roman sergeant-major--what they called a centurion.
...We may kill if necessary, but we must not hate and enjoy it.
Mere Christianity
 
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inquisitor_11

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DeltaJ said:
if the rest of the world thought that about us than why are their 30 something other countrys involved in iraq with us. Duh!

No, the question is why are our governments sending their troops off to fight your war? All of them have something to gain by continuing their support of US policy and maintaining a close relationship with the US.


Because he's 19, hasn't figured out what to do with his life, and doesn't understand what it's like to live in a warzone. Hell I was getting shot in Afghanistan, but I guess you Aussies wouldn't understand that too much.

No we wouldn't, because as you would know, there are no Aussies in Iraq or Afghanistan. Nor were there any in Somalia or Vietnam.

In fact, why am I even speaking on this topic? I obviously have no military experience or even a basic understanding of the issues.
 
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DeltaJ

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If there are no Aussie's in iraq then what are these guys imposters
 

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inquisitor_11

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lol...sorry if you didn't pick up on it, but I left the sarcasm tags out of my post. My point was that there were Aussies there.

and what kind of gain could the other countrys get by helping us.

Heaps... in terms of geopolitics being aligned with the US has major benefits

e.g. (off the top of my head, so some of this might be a bit sketchy) Philippines- US $ and military support for their own counter-insurgency; Australia- maintain strategic alliance, bilateral free-trade deal; Poland- develop ties with west, continue to realign itself in the post-cold war era, place in NATO(?); UK- ongoing interests in the middle east e.g. Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL) etc.
 
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daidhaid

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inquisitor_11 said:
lol...sorry if you didn't pick up on it, but I left the sarcasm tags out of my post. My point was that there were Aussies there.



Heaps... in terms of geopolitics being aligned with the US has major benefits

e.g. (off the top of my head, so some of this might be a bit sketchy) Philippines- US $ and military support for their own counter-insurgency; Australia- maintain strategic alliance, bilateral free-trade deal; Poland- develop ties with west, continue to realign itself in the post-cold war era, place in NATO(?); UK- ongoing interests in the middle east e.g. Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL) etc.

amazing how sarcasm goes unnoticed by the humorless,,, but I digress...

I'll concur with the list of benefits you mention.
Favorable trade relations and future considerations for any assistance today however small, are at the top.
Everything from loans, to forgivness of debt, to favorable interest, to Lending our weight in the UN, to contracts here or there, upgrading embassy facilities and status, Treaties, troops, training, Aid, turning a blind eye to things like human rights, environmental standards, really at this point it is a sellers market. Their assistance will be an expense we incurr without much public scrutiny.
Bush again squanders our power and prestige for political gain.

Inquisitor ever hear of the Fenians, they are an Irish American Band..?
Their song The Band Played Waltzing Matilda tells of the battle of Galipoli.
Nobody who knows of that battle could trust politics and war, or question Aussie's on the subject of war.
 
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inquisitor_11

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Their song The Band Played Waltzing Matilda tells of the battle of Galipoli.

Yeah, I have heard it, its a good one. Theres also a good Vietnam one by Redgum called "I was only 19". Its been known to be played in the lines before march-out parades- despite its almost anti-war sentiments.

haven't you ever heard of maybe just helping someone
Yes.... yes we have.
 
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