Is it a sin for a Christian to be involved in MMA?

real tree said:

What about if it comes to self defence, defending family or your country.

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There are non violent methods or tactics to resolve a potentially violent situation. Check out the thread link to read about them. However, more importantly check out the verses first, though.


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Jason0047 said:

There are non violent methods or tactics to resolve a potentially violent situation. Check out the thread link to read about them. However, more importantly check out the verses first, though.


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So all US soldiers that had to fight against terrorism are in violation of gods word. I don't think so. What non violent method and tactic would you use to combat ISIS.

real tree said:

So all US soldiers that had to fight against terrorism are in violation of gods word. I don't think so. What non violent method and tactic would you use to combat ISIS.

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Complete pacifism would eliminate the need for a police force and the military entirely.

real tree said:

So all US soldiers that had to fight against terrorism are in violation of gods word. I don't think so. What non violent method and tactic would you use to combat ISIS.

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Complete pacifism would eliminate the need for a police force and the military entirely.

real tree said:

So all US soldiers that had to fight against terrorism are in violation of gods word. I don't think so. What non violent method and tactic would you use to combat ISIS.

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Romans 13 talks about unbelieving ministers who execute God's justice like the police and the military. God realizes not everyone is going to believe His Words on New Testament Pacifism. Especially all the nations of the planet who are of the world system. Again, look at the verses on Pacifism I provided in the thread link here at CF.

Now, Is denying New Testament Pacifism a serious sin? I cannot answer that. This would be something to pray to God about while also following His Word as a source of guidance. But what I can say with 100% confidence is that the New Testament teaches Pacifism.


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Jason0047 said:

Romans 13 talks about unbelieving ministers who execute God's justice like the police and the military. God realizes not everyone is going to believe His Words on New Testament Pacifism. Especially all the nations of the planet who are of the world system. Again, look at the verses on Pacifism I provided in the thread link here at CF.

Now, Is denying New Testament Pacifism a serious sin? I cannot answer that. This would be something to pray to God about while also following His Word as a source of guidance. But what I can say with 100% confidence is that the New Testament teaches Pacifism.


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No one is denying New Testament Pacifism. I am however denying complete Pacifism. Especially when it comes to our police and military.
Romans 13:3-4 grants governments the right to use force to restrain and punish evil

Paul writes: "For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil."

A recent movie (that I thought Hollywood would never be make) that looks good at taking a stand for Biblical Pacifism is Hacksaw Ridge.


Side Note 1:

Please take note I am not SDA. I merely believe the verses in the New Testament on Biblical Pacifism.

Side Note 2:

Also, I will be planning to see this movie sometime after it's DVD Release this coming Tuesday.


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real tree said:

No one is denying New Testament Pacifism. I am however denying complete Pacifism. Especially when it comes to our police and military. Romans 13:3-4 grants governments the right to use force to restrain and punish evil.

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Complete Pacificism is New Testament Pacifism. If you look again at the link I provided, you will see a nice extensive list on New Testament Pacifism. Nowhere does this version of Pacifism teach self defense or the use of violent force. In fact, you will find no place in the New Testament that teaches self defense or violence as a part of the teachings of Christ.

As for Romans 13:3-4:

Please pay careful attention to what it says. It speaks of the government and the believer as separate entities. It says if you do evil, beware because this minister of justice for God bears not the sword in vain to execute wrath or justice upon those who do evil.

Also, a few verses back, it says,

"Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (Romans 12:19).

“Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.” (Romans 12:20-21).

real tree said:

Paul writes: "For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil."

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Yes, this proves that the believer and the government are two separate entities. God never tells us to join the world system or the government. Why? Because it's interests are in conflict with God's Word. Granted God can use them for His purposes (like being a minister of justice), but He does not approve of them as being Godly.


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"Hacksaw Ridge," a true story about a WWII pacifist, is by far the best and most spiritually inspiring movie of the year. That said, I'm no pacifist and am a big MMA fan!

Let me share just 3 experiences that might encourage you to chill out on this question.

(1) About 7 years ago, I went to a local travel agency to book a Las Vegas vacation and asked the female agent about the shows I might attend. She suddenly railed against Neanderthal tourists who wanted to see live boxing and MMA fights in Vegas. She knew I was a local pastor and just assumed I would never dream of attending such a violent event. I quickly suppressed my planned questions about the availability of a boxing or MMA event during my stay!
(2) On my own, I learned that a boxing card featuring a world championship match was going to take place at the MGM Grand during my visit. My Dad was a big boxing fan and I wanted him to see the fight on TV and look for his son in the crowd. The title bout featured a Puerto Rican champion against a Mexican challenger. I never realized how intense the rivalry was between those 2 places. I arrived at the arena a couple of hours before the main event. The atmosphere was more electric than any sporting event I have ever attended. But the rowdiness, rudeness, and heavy drinking around me made me wonder if a Christian should be there!

Then an amazing thing happened. Right behind, almost pressing their knees in my spine, were 2 drop-dead gorgeous, unescorted young women. (I was a single United Methodist Pastor at the time--now retired). And what were these 2 lovelies furiously discussing? Why one of them left her United Methodist church in favor of another church! They were discussing the quality of their praise teams, Bible study groups--everything! After about 10 minutes of this, I couldn't resist turning around and explaining with a smile that their conversation was very interesting and informative to me as a United Methodist pastor! They laughed their heads off at the irony and I realize that God has a sense of humor and wanted me to chill out about the surrounding rowdiness. Then when the next fight started, one guy hit his opponent with a low blow, and these 2 evangelical gals were on their feet cussing out the ref!

Here is another Vegas experience illustrating God's sense of humor. I had earlier ducked inside the Circus Circus to get out of the intense heat and tried to recuperate at a poker bar. Suddenly a beautiful Black young woman sat next to me and began pouring out her heart about how she and her boyfriend weren't getting along and she was wondering what to do. She told me she used to sing in her United Methodist choir and had always wanted to become a physical therapist. I shocked her by telling her I was a United Methodist pastor. To make a long conversation short, I urged her to dump the abuser, go back to her church that she had abandoned, and take courses to fulfill her vocational dream. She was shocked to meet someone like me at a poker bar. She suddenly asked me, "Are you one of those angels in disguise that the Bible talks about?" I told her that I didn't think an angel would be sweating life a greased hog from the intense heat outside!

Just then another guy at the bar, sitting too far away to hear us stood up, pointed at me, and shouted, "Honey, I've seen his kind here before. You can't trust any of the BS he's peddling!" At first, I was offended, but then I realized that to him I must have seemed like a rich sugar daddy spinning a yarn to charm a far too young beauty into doing my bidding. I again laughed my head off at God's sense of humor in letting me know that he can use me anywhere, including Vegas and that He wanted me to have unexpected fun in the process.





















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Anguspure said:

Actually the best fighters do not allow temper to flare because it clouds good judgement. The very best fighters, while being emotionally engaged towards winning the competition, are not personally engaged against their combatant. I have observed a number of guys who are close friends outside the ring dealing to one another very severely, in the spirit of the competition while engaged in a fight.
Furthermore I have observed in my own life that when men engage one another in this way the respect between them (and this goes both ways between a noble looser and a dignified winner) only increases.

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People have the freewill to do whatever they want to, and God will not judge us for things we do not know, but on our walk of sanctification to heaven, which Paul refers to in Romans 8, we must follow the leading of the conviction the Holy Spirit gives us or we are not following God. If God convicts you of doing this fighting, and you start to feel that it is wrong you might want to consider where that conviction is coming from. God will not take anything away from us that is in His best interest for us. He wants us all to be in heaven but there is much a Christian has to do to get their, and that is follow what God says through conviction. The ONLY way we can do this is by the power of His grace, which has been given to us FOR obedience Romans 1:5.

The way I see Christianity is people being "Christ-like". Not just trying to be but in fact living Jesus life in them. Like Galatians 2:20 puts it this way: "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." When we live with Christ in us we will be imitating Him, not the world.

masmpg said:

People have the freewill to do whatever they want to, and God will not judge us for things we do not know, but on our walk of sanctification to heaven, which Paul refers to in Romans 8, we must follow the leading of the conviction the Holy Spirit gives us or we are not following God. If God convicts you of doing this fighting, and you start to feel that it is wrong you might want to consider where that conviction is coming from. God will not take anything away from us that is in His best interest for us. He wants us all to be in heaven but there is much a Christian has to do to get their, and that is follow what God says through conviction. The ONLY way we can do this is by the power of His grace, which has been given to us FOR obedience Romans 1:5.

The way I see Christianity is people being "Christ-like". Not just trying to be but in fact living Jesus life in them. Like Galatians 2:20 puts it this way: "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." When we live with Christ in us we will be imitating Him, not the world.

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I like what you write brother, except for the apparant implication that our salvation (getting to heaven) is contingent upon our own performance. It is the performance of Christ Jesus that saves, and His performance is perfect.

Anguspure said:

I like what you write brother, except for the apparant implication that our salvation (getting to heaven) is contingent upon our own performance. It is the performance of Christ Jesus that saves, and His performance is perfect.

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It is Christ in you the hope of glory. With Christ in us we will DO whatever Christ did. Many try to take works completely out of salvation. The only reason Paul writes in Ephesians 2 9 that "not of works" is because of the second part of that verse which states "lest any man boast". We MUST do what the bible tells us to do or we will not be saved. The whole bible is about action, not apathy. Nobody will be make it to heaven by words. Just a profession will save nobody. This is a prevalent teaching among most churches today. Most People who profess Jesus take Paul's writings and use just them to prove their idea about salvation, while they omit Peter, James, and John and the letters to Timothy and Titus.

BUT the ONLY way we can obey is through grace. Grace is the power of God for obedience Romans 1:5. Grace gives us forgiveness, but only when we ask for it. Grace gives us victory over every temptation when we look to the cross at the moment of trail and temptation, and we will have victory if we believe and trust in Jesus merits alone. When we take credit for our works we are lost. Moses did that and was denied entrance into the promised land. His sin was this, God told Moses to speak to the rock and water will flow, but Moses, being weary of the complaining of the Israelites struck the rock and said "must WE fetch you water". If this will keep Moses out of the promised land, a man whom the bible does not write about having any sin except that and killing the soldier, how do people think that Jesus "covers" their unconfessed sins and they will never stop sinning but still be saved?

Jason0047 said:

Romans 13 talks about unbelieving ministers who execute God's justice like the police and the military. God realizes not everyone is going to believe His Words on New Testament Pacifism. Especially all the nations of the planet who are of the world system. Again, look at the verses on Pacifism I provided in the thread link here at CF.

Now, Is denying New Testament Pacifism a serious sin? I cannot answer that. This would be something to pray to God about while also following His Word as a source of guidance. But what I can say with 100% confidence is that the New Testament teaches Pacifism.


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Nothing here says that they are unbelieving ministers. Once again you add to gods word. That are not two separate laws, one for believers and one for non believers. If it is sinful for a believer it is sinful for a non believer. It clearly says that they do not bear the sword in vain.

real tree said:

Nothing here says that they are unbelieving ministers. Once again you add to gods word. That are not two separate laws, one for believers and one for non believers. If it is sinful for a believer it is sinful for a non believer. It clearly says that they do not bear the sword in vain.

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First, false claims of whether or not I add to God's Word can only be shown by you actually proving your case with Scripture and not by you simply stating that such is so. Second, I see that you really desire to debate with me in regards to God's Word on several topics (because you replied to me alot). However, yesterday God decided to talk to my heart not to say anything to you and other people (Who desire to see what they want to see). For my goal is to plant seeds and to water with God's Word, and it is God who gives the increase. Granted, I was more than capable of being able to debate with you yesterday, but God sometimes tells me to not to write. For just debating always does not always help all people. Anyways, seeing you really want to think you are right on God's Word, I will in this instance reply to your error of misinterpreting the text in Romans 13 to show you what the Bible really says plainly here.

Okay here we go.

Romans 13 says,

1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."
(Romans 13:1-7).

Verse 1 says, "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers."
Who are those that are mentioned as "every soul" here in verse 1?
Who are the higher powers?

Every soul would be every person living on this planet.
The higher powers would be government authorities.

How so?

Verse 4 tells you the reader (Who is a believer) the following,

"But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

In other words, if a believer does evil, they should be afraid, because the government they live does not bear the sword in vain, they are God's ministers of justice to execute wrath upon those who do evil. God's ministers of justice is not the Christian (Who is the reader receiving this message) but it is another entity (Which would be the government or "higher powers"). Christians are not the ..."higher powers." Christians are not God's ministers of wrath upon those who do evil. For we believers (the reader) are told to be afraid if we do evil. Also, Jesus says, "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." (Matthew 5:44).

In the Old Testament, God used the pagan nation of Assyria to be an arm of justice against the people of Israel because of their sins. Assyria was at one time, God's minister of justice to execute wrath on even God's people at one time in history.


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Jason0047 said:

First, false claims of whether or not I add to God's Word can only be shown by you actually proving your case with Scripture and not by you simply stating that such is so. Second, I see that you really desire to debate with me in regards to God's Word on several topics (because you replied to me alot). However, yesterday God decided to talk to my heart not to say anything to you and other people (Who desire to see what they want to see). Granted, I was more than capable of being able to debate with you yesterday, but God sometimes tells me to not to write (because it will not help you or anyone else to do so). Anyways, seeing you really want to think you are right on God's Word, I will in this instance reply to your error of misinterpreting the text in Romans 13 to show you what the Bible really says plainly.

Okay here we go.

Romans 13 says,

1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."
(Romans 13:1-7).

Verse 1 says, "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers."
Who are those that are mentioned as "every soul" here in verse 1?
Who are the higher powers?

Every sould would be every person living on this planet.
The higher powers would be government authorities.

How so?

Verse 4 tells you the reader (Who is a believer) the following,

"But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

In other words, if a believer does evil, they should be afraid, because the government they live does not bear the sword in vain, they are God's ministers of justice to execute wrath upon those who do evil. God's ministers of justice is not the Christian (Who is the reader receiving this message) but it is another entity (Which would be the government or "higher powers"). Christians are not the ..."higher powers." Christians are not God's ministers of wrath upon those who do evil. For we believers (the reader) are told to be afraid if we do evil. Also, Jesus says, "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." (Matthew 5:44).

In the Old Testament, God used the pagan nation of Assyria to be an arm of justice against the people of Israel because of their sins. Assyria was at one time, God's minister of justice to execute wrath on even God's people at one time in history.


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I have read a couple sentences of your post and a little and the end have have concluded that you dont understand scripture.

real tree said:

I have read a couple sentences of your post and a little and the end have have concluded that you dont understand scripture.

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Again, your just stating that does not make it so. Prove your case by posting the text and then show that by the context. Using a couple of cross references would help, as well.

In fact, you will find no verse in the New Testament that supports the idea that Christians are to act violently in self defense. On the contrary, the New Testament teaches the exact opposite.

Check out my list in Scripture here:

Pacifism as Taught in the New Testament is Moral and Good.

If you can't be bothered to talk to me about the actual text of the Bible itself, it is time for you to move on.
I will not continue to talk with you if you do not bring up a good argument with Scripture to prove your case. Right now from my perspective it just looks like you are just pushing the "disagree button" with no real thought as to why in Scripture. In other words, prove your case with the Bible or move on, my friend.


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Jason0047 said:

Again, your just stating that does not make it so. Prove your case by posting the text and then show that by the context. Using a couple of cross references would help, as well.

In fact, you will find no verse in the New Testament that supports the idea that Christians are to act violently in self defense. On the contrary, the New Testament teaches the exact opposite.

Check out my list in Scripture here:

Pacifism as Taught in the New Testament is Moral and Good.

If you can't be bothered to talk to me about the actual text of the Bible itself, it is time for you to move on.
I will not continue to talk with you if you do not bring up a good argument with Scripture to prove your case. Right now from my perspective it just looks like you are just pushing the "disagree button" with no real thought as to why in Scripture. In other words, prove your case with the Bible or move on, my friend.


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That would be a waste of time, Ill never take advice from someone who claims to have obtained sinless perfectionism.

real tree said:

Complete pacifism would eliminate the need for a police force and the military entirely.

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No, it wouldn't because Jesus says narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it. Jesus (God) knows not everyone is willing to follow Him in what He teaches exactly. In fact, in Scripture we are told to imitate Jesus. Show me where Jesus returned violence for violence done against Himself. Show me anywhere in the New Testament where Christ's followers took up swords or weapons to fight back when they were persecuted or attacked.


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real tree said:

That would be a waste of time, Ill never take advice from someone who claims to have obtained sinless perfectionism.

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Who told you that I have obtained a state of Sinless Perfectionism?

Well, for your information, I believe Sinless Perfectionism is the goal of a believer's Sanctification and that not having reached a state of Sinless Perfectionism does not mean one is not saved. Granted, a believer cannot deny the belief of Sinless Perfectionism because that would be denying God's plan of Sanctification for your life. To deny the idea that we can oversome sin is to agree with being a slave to sin as being okay. But Paul says sin shall not have dominion over you.

In addition, not all sin is the same. There are sins unto death and sins not unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Sins unto death are sins that lead to the "Second Death" (i.e. the Lake of Fire). Sins unto death would be sins like: Murder, hate, adultery, theft, lying, idolatry, and drunkenness, etc. An example of a sin that is not unto death would be like not being baptized in this life (1 Peter 3:21).

The real problem here is that when God tells a believer within His Word that by His power working in them He can help them to overcome sin and they say "no" to that, they are making their own path of righteousness outside of God's Word.

As for taking my advice:

Well, I am not expecting you or anyone to take my advice blindly but I would ask them to check the Scriptures to see whether those things be so or not and I would ask them to pray about it to the Lord our God.




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Jason0047 said:

Who told you that I have obtained a state of Sinless Perfectionism?

Well, for your information, I believe Sinless Perfectionism is the goal of a believer's Sanctification and that not having reached a state of Sinless Perfectionism does not mean one is not saved. Granted, a believer cannot deny the belief of Sinless Perfectionism because that would be denying God's plan of Sanctification for your life. Also, not all sin is the same. There are sins unto death and sins not unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Sins unto death are sins that lead to the "Second Death" (i.e. the Lake of Fire). Sins unto death would be sins like: Murder, hate, adultery, theft, lying, idolatry, and drunkenness, etc. An example of a sin that is not unto death would be like not being baptized in this life (1 Peter 3:21).

Also, I am not expecting you or anyone to take my advice blindly but I would ask them to check the Scriptures to see whether those things be so or not and I would ask them to pray about it to the Lord our God.


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I will apologise for this one and believe it or not I agree, there is no sarcasm with this response.