is Israel saved?

[rebel_conservative]

I recently became Christian, so I am trying to learn as much as I can.

what does dispensationalism teach about the salvation of Israel?
are Orthodox Jews who are Torah observant saved?

thank you

 

[Tractor1]

I recently became Christian, so I am trying to learn as much as I can.

what does dispensationalism teach about the salvation of Israel?
are Orthodox Jews who are Torah observant saved?

thank you

The national salvation of Israel is yet future (Rom. 11:26-27).

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[rebel_conservative]

what about individual Jews? if they are observant, are they saved? even if they do not conciously accept Christ?

 

[Nehi]

The national salvation of Israel is yet future (Rom. 11:26-27).

In Christ,
Tracey

Right, ad at present there is a small remnant of Jews who have embraced Jesus as Messiah.

The church is to provoke Israel to jealousy. As a result Israel will embrace her Messiah during the tribluation.

 

[Tractor1]

what about individual Jews? if they are observant, are they saved? even if they do not conciously accept Christ?

"But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe" (Gal. 3:22).

The individual Jew who places his or her faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross is saved. They are the believing remnant which has always existed and in this dispensation belong to the Body of Christ.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[Jerrysch]

what about individual Jews? if they are observant, are they saved? even if they do not conciously accept Christ?

Salvation is always based upon faith, observance has never saved anyone (from the penalty of their sins) Observance has been the basis for blessing, not a right standing before a holy and righteous God.

 

[Jerrysch]

Right, ad at present there is a small remnant of Jews who have embraced Jesus as Messiah.

The church is to provoke Israel to jealousy. As a result Israel will embrace her Messiah during the tribluation.

This is correct, and on "the other side" of the tribulation all Israel shall be saved, that is all Israel who are still living, the unbelieving Jews will not survive the Tribulation

 

[S Walch]

The Apostle Paul voiced his concerns over the Jews in Romans Chapters 9-11 - He didn't believe them to be saved, even if they obeyed the Law of moses.

So we shouldn't believe they are saved either.

Only by the grace of God, through faith can someone be saved, no matter how much of the mosaic law they abide by, Jew or gentile.

 

[Jerrysch]

"But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe" (Gal. 3:22).

The individual Jew who places his or her faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross is saved. They are the believing remnant which has always existed and in this dispensation belong to the Body of Christ.

In Christ,
Tracey

Yes, this is true, faith has always been the basis of salvation, in each and every dispensation. The basis of that faith has changed, but salvation has always been based upon faith appart from works of any kind.

 

[Tractor1]

Yes, this is true, faith has always been the basis of salvation, in each and every dispensation. The basis of that faith has changed, but salvation has always been based upon faith appart from works of any kind.

I disagree. The basis for salvation has always been the death of Christ. The requirement has always been faith in God to deliver us from the judgment of sin though the content of faith changes due to the progress of revelation in different dispensations.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[Jerrysch]

I disagree. The basis for salvation has always been the death of Christ. The requirement has always been faith in God to deliver us from the judgment of sin though the content of faith changes due to the progress of revelation in different dispensations.

In Christ,
Tracey

Abraham was justified by believing what God had told him, by faith if you will.

Gen 15:1After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying,
"Do not fear, Abram,
I am a shield to you;
Your reward shall be very great."


2Abram said, "O Lord GOD, what will You give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?"

3And Abram said, "Since You have given no offspring to me, one born in my house is my heir."

4Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir."

5And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them " And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Looking at you statement more... I guess it depends upon how we define "basis". Of course, no one has salvation appart from the shed blood of Christ, yet the responsibility of man has been based upon faith. In the case of Abraham, he did not trust Jesus as his personal savior, he believed and God counted that belief as righteousness. Redemption happens by way of the shed blood of Jesus...we might be saying the same thing, but it isn't comming accross right(?)

 

[Tractor1]

I guess it depends upon how we define "basis".

Basis: 1. a bottom or base; the part on which something stands or rests. 2. anything upon which something is based; a fundamental principle. 3. the principle constituent; fundamental ingredient. 4. a basic fact, amount, standard, etc., used in making computations, or the like. Webster's College Dictionary

Without Christ's death on the cross God couldn't righteously forgive anyone, past or present.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[mcfly1960]

"When I remember thee in days to come, O Jerusalem, it will not be with pleasure. The musty deposits of 2,000 years of inhumanity, intolerance, and uncleanliness lie in the foul-smelling alleys.... The amiable dreamer of Nazareth has only contributed to increasing the hatred.... What superstition and fanaticism on every side!" - Theodor Herzl (1860-1904) (after a visit to Jerusalem in 1898, from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief)

"The return from Babylon, and the adoption of the Babylonian Talmud, marks the end of Hebrewism, and the beginning of Judaism." - Judeo-Christian? Chief Rabbi Stephen Wise, p.1
​

"The Talmud is to this day the circulating heart's blood of the Jewish religion. It is our common law."
- This is my God, Herman Wouk, p.200

"The dispensationalist believes that God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with an earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism" - Dispensationalism Today, Charles Ryrie​

"With the completion and departure of the Church from earth, Judaism can be again the embodiment of all the divine purpose in the world" - Systematic Theology, Lewis S. Chafer, 4:248


​

Do Ryrie and Chafer include the non-believing Talmudic Jews in their concept of Judaism? Are non-believing Jews saved regardless of their beliefs on the basis of "national election"?

 

[Tractor1]

"With the completion and departure of the Church from earth, Judaism can be again the embodiment of all the divine purpose in the world" - Systematic Theology, Lewis S. Chafer, 4:248

In the interests of propriety the above quote should read: "With the completion and departure of the Church from the earth, Judaism will be again the embodiment of all divine purpose in the world." Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology, Volume 4, pg. 249.

Are non-believing Jews saved regardless of their beliefs on the basis of "national election"?

No. The national standing of each Israelite was secured by physical birth, but not necessarily their individual spiritual state.

In Christ,
Tracey
​

 

[Jerrysch]

Basis: 1. a bottom or base; the part on which something stands or rests. 2. anything upon which something is based; a fundamental principle. 3. the principle constituent; fundamental ingredient. 4. a basic fact, amount, standard, etc., used in making computations, or the like. Webster's College Dictionary

Without Christ's death on the cross God couldn't righteously forgive anyone, past or present.

In Christ,
Tracey

Oh yes, agreed, yet the requirement is keyed to faith, and It appears to be the object of that faith has changed throughout history. Your thoughts?

 

[Jerrysch]

Do Ryrie and Chafer include the non-believing Talmudic Jews in their concept of Judaism? Are non-believing Jews saved regardless of their beliefs on the basis of "national election"?

Hey George,
From my studies they would not include the non believing Jews as being saved. At this point in time the requirement of God for the basis of being considered righteous is faith in Messiah, as depicted in the Bible. (just like any other person of any other nation of race). Salvation has never been on the basis of being a part of any ethnic group, it has always been based upon faith, There was/is great blessing associated with being a part of ethnic Israel, yet no one will attain eternal life without being saved from the penalty of their sins.

 

[Jerrysch]

In the interests of propriety the above quote should read: "With the completion and departure of the Church from the earth, Judaism will be again the embodiment of all divine purpose in the world." Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology, Volume 4, pg. 249.



In Christ,
Tracey

​

I agree with this in that the departure of the church comes somewhere after Rev. 4 and then God's dealings with men are directed through His interaction with the Jewish nation starting with the ministry of the 144,000. The 144K !

 

[Tractor1]

Oh yes, agreed, yet the requirement is keyed to faith, and It appears to be the object of that faith has changed throughout history. Your thoughts?

No, the object of faith has always been God, but what He has chosen to reveal to man about The Provision has changed due to the progress of revelation.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[Jerrysch]

No, the object of faith has always been God, but what He has chosen to reveal to man about The Provision has changed due to the progress of revelation.

In Christ,
Tracey

Did a person at the time of Abraham have to believe the same thing as a person today to be considered saved from the penalty of theri sin? If so what would that belief consist of?

 

[Tractor1]

Did a person at the time of Abraham have to believe the same thing as a person today to be considered saved from the penalty of theri sin? If so what would that belief consist of?

They couldn't. What could be known of Christ and His death progressed through subsequent dispensations. Again, the basis for salvation at any point in time is the death of Christ. The requirement is faith in God and His promise. The content of the promise changes due to the progress of revelation.

In Christ,
Tracey