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is israel good or bad?

As I was saying

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The UN disproportionally attacked Israel and ignores the real human rights abusers. There is no occupation of "Palestine" because there is no such country, since they rejected numerous chances to form such a country. Israel is a beacon of democracy and goodness in the world most dangerous region.

Not so long ago, the Chairman of the UN Human Rights Commision was Libya. I guess they would vote in Dracula to be the chairman of the Blood Bank.
 
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As I was saying

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I doubt Israel is in "debt" by UN standards of wealth. So Israel is good.

One other "small point" is that Jews have won 127 Nobel prizes and ALL the Arabs put together, nine.
 
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As I was saying

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I believe Israel is a very good country with perhaps the best national leader in the world. Benjamin Netanyahu is guarding his small country from constant threats and is very clear that he will do whatever it takes. Can you imagine living in the middle of a so much threat?

But you have to realise that the secular left want us to invite the neighbors in for a cup of tea if they lob molotov cocktails into our back yard.
 
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Larry Smart

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But you have to realise that the secular left want us to invite the neighbors in for a cup of tea if they lob molotov cocktails into our back yard.

You are correct. The secular left seems to ignore the fact that Israel does not simply occupy the land they are on, but they own that land as a gift of God.
 
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DogmaHunter

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I will take a look at the link. However there has never been a state called Palestine. There has never been a time where the Palestinian Arabs have been an independent people. History bears this out.

Therefor, it doesn't matter how Israeli's treat palestinians?
 
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DogmaHunter

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Can you tell me one democracy that is engaging in evil policies?

Israel.

And the US to, btw.

Thankyou for your opinion. I will stick to the facts which are that western democracies are being flooded by immigrants from Middle East dictatorships and oligarchies for the very reasons that I pointed out how they treat their women.

Irrelevant.
 
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DogmaHunter

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The graphic you shared is very misleading. There never has been Palestinian nation. Ever. So to start with, those maps are all wrong. Completely wrong. You can't lose land that was never yours. And when Israel returned to their land in 1948, Several Arab nations attacked but Israel not only fought back, they defeated the Arabs. The Arabs attacked in 48, 67, and 73 and each time they were defeated. Israel gained land as a result of the Arab aggression. Only propaganda and lies say otherwise. Historically it has been the land of Israel but has never been a Palestinian nation. The Jews have simply had their land returned to them (in 1948) and they have managed to keep it.

Israel doesn't terrorize the Arabs living in Israel nor does it aggressively harass them. But the Arabs launch bombs by the hundreds and thousands into civilian neighborhoods. Israel retaliates and that's bad. Hamas kills innocent Israelis and people look the other way. It's nonsense to suggest Israel is at fault for the problems in the middle-east.
As for violations of UN security resolutions, only the uninformed think the UN is of any use. The UN is a joke and what they collectively say has nothing to do with the sovereign decisions of any nation. The UN has proven itself to be a worthless organization. Israel has the right and the duty to do what's best for Israel. Just like other nations. Do you think the US or Russia would listen to the UN demanding of those countries on how to deal with their own land?

The borders of Israel were determined by the international community. Israel has consistenly violated these borders to seize more and more land. And continues to do so. In violation of international law. Who they are taking the land from is irrelevant.

Also, following your "logic", native americans ("indians") should be able to kick out americans and seize the land.
 
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PapaZoom

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Therefor, it doesn't matter how Israeli's treat palestinians?

I know what you mean. Like when Jews randomly kill Palestinians with hidden knives and all that. Oh wait, it's the Arabs killing the Jews. Ok, well how about all the Jewish suicide bombers on buses and in restaurants? Wait, that's the Arabs doing that killing too. Well how about when the Jews fight back? How about that?!!! Oh wait, you mean like when they respond to attacks by the Palestinians? Yeah, there's that too.

What exactly are the Israelis doing to mistreat the Palestinians?
 
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PapaZoom

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Therefor, it doesn't matter how Israeli's treat palestinians?
The borders of Israel were determined by the international community. Israel has consistenly violated these borders to seize more and more land. And continues to do so. In violation of international law. Who they are taking the land from is irrelevant.

Also, following your "logic", native americans ("indians") should be able to kick out americans and seize the land.

lol, your ignorance of history is showing.
 
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Aardverk

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........... Historically it has been the land of Israel but has never been a Palestinian nation. ..............
It seems a bit far-fetched to claim that modern Israel is in some way historically Israel or even Jewish land. If you examine that area historically, rather than biblically, you will see that the area has had many titles and no clear boundaries. Palestine seems a far more appropriate title, it has existed from the earliest records. The Jews were, historically, ‘hardly ever’ there in any great numbers having themselves frequently been exiled.

Please excuse my short versions and indeed errors but the Judahites were kicked out of Samaria in 733 BC by the Assyrians. They gradually crept back in and were kicked out again in 597BC by the Babylonians.

[Interestingly, whilst their leaders were in exile in Babylon they learnt various stories that ended up as part of the Torah. The Ark, a cradle in the bulrushes, and other very familiar stories are on cuneiform tablets pre-dating Moses by a thousand years. Those stories were about other characters of course. No doubt significantly, the Torah was written very soon after their return from Babylon. There has always been plagiarism in story telling.]

The Babylonians allowed them to return to their Babylonian protectorate then called Yehud Medinata, and what we commonly regard as Israel became Samaria, Galilee, Iturea, Perea, and Idumea,where they survived until the Romans took over in 6AD when the area became the Roman province of Judea. Following the Jewish revolt, the Jewish leaders were exiled again in 70AD.

In 132AD the Jews had yet another go at making the land their own and the Romans this time exiled the lot – which is largely why so many were and still are spread around the world. The Romans re-named the area Syria Palaestina, also known as Palestinium.

Following the decline of the Roman Empire there were hundreds of years of Arab rule, crusades and a bloody mess with people calling the land whatever they wanted. It was only with the Ottoman Empire that it was again given a clear name and borders. The name – Palestine!

Following the defeat of the Turks, the area was divided up between the French and the British. Ottoman Palestine became known as Syria, under the French and Transjordon, under the British. Transjordan very soon became Jordan and Palestine. At that time, 90% of Palestinians were Arab. Pause to consider that again – only 10% of the people in the land we now know as Modern Israel were Jewish. Apart from when they were murdered by the crusaders, for two thousand years they were living in peace with the vast Arab majority under Arab rule, then Turkish rule and then British rule. In 1917, the British proposed a new state of Israel but it was an unpopular notion and did not happen until it seemed the most expedient solution after the 2nd world war when the Jewish refugees started arriving in Palestine and fighting with the Arabs and with the British rulers because they wanted more space. Eventually the UN (or was it then the League of Nations) voted to take the land away from the Palestinian Arabs and hand it over to Jewish rule. A big mistake which has caused, continues to cause and WILL cause much heartache and bloodshed – if not actual Armageddon!

Historically then, how can modern Israel be regarded as ‘naturally Jewish territory’ or however they may like to describe it? The title Palestine is historically far more appropriate. The claim to a Jewish homeland is purely biblical. The Jews have no more right to it than any defeated nation.

There is only one right and fair way to decide who rules any identifiable parcel of land and that is by a majority vote of the people on that land (democracy). All people should have self determination for the majority and that is what was denied the Palestinians. A privileged position was handed to the Jews and we can now see the result. That doesn't make the Israelis 'bad' as asked in the OP but some of their behaviour has been truly dreadful. I think I am correct to say that almost every head of security has resigned because of the dirty tricks they were being asked by the government to perform. SOME Israelis ARE bad and they have given the good ones a bad name.
 
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PapaZoom

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It seems a bit far-fetched to claim that modern Israel is in some way historically Israel or even Jewish land. If you examine that area historically, rather than biblically, you will see that the area has had many titles and no clear boundaries. Palestine seems a far more appropriate title, it has existed from the earliest records. The Jews were, historically, ‘hardly ever’ there in any great numbers having themselves frequently been exiled.

Please excuse my short versions and indeed errors but the Judahites were kicked out of Samaria in 733 BC by the Assyrians. They gradually crept back in and were kicked out again in 597BC by the Babylonians.

[Interestingly, whilst their leaders were in exile in Babylon they learnt various stories that ended up as part of the Torah. The Ark, a cradle in the bulrushes, and other very familiar stories are on cuneiform tablets pre-dating Moses by a thousand years. Those stories were about other characters of course. No doubt significantly, the Torah was written very soon after their return from Babylon. There has always been plagiarism in story telling.]

The Babylonians allowed them to return to their Babylonian protectorate then called Yehud Medinata, and what we commonly regard as Israel became Samaria, Galilee, Iturea, Perea, and Idumea,where they survived until the Romans took over in 6AD when the area became the Roman province of Judea. Following the Jewish revolt, the Jewish leaders were exiled again in 70AD.

In 132AD the Jews had yet another go at making the land their own and the Romans this time exiled the lot – which is largely why so many were and still are spread around the world. The Romans re-named the area Syria Palaestina, also known as Palestinium.

Following the decline of the Roman Empire there were hundreds of years of Arab rule, crusades and a bloody mess with people calling the land whatever they wanted. It was only with the Ottoman Empire that it was again given a clear name and borders. The name – Palestine!

Following the defeat of the Turks, the area was divided up between the French and the British. Ottoman Palestine became known as Syria, under the French and Transjordon, under the British. Transjordan very soon became Jordan and Palestine. At that time, 90% of Palestinians were Arab. Pause to consider that again – only 10% of the people in the land we now know as Modern Israel were Jewish. Apart from when they were murdered by the crusaders, for two thousand years they were living in peace with the vast Arab majority under Arab rule, then Turkish rule and then British rule. In 1917, the British proposed a new state of Israel but it was an unpopular notion and did not happen until it seemed the most expedient solution after the 2nd world war when the Jewish refugees started arriving in Palestine and fighting with the Arabs and with the British rulers because they wanted more space. Eventually the UN (or was it then the League of Nations) voted to take the land away from the Palestinian Arabs and hand it over to Jewish rule. A big mistake which has caused, continues to cause and WILL cause much heartache and bloodshed – if not actual Armageddon!

Historically then, how can modern Israel be regarded as ‘naturally Jewish territory’ or however they may like to describe it? The title Palestine is historically far more appropriate. The claim to a Jewish homeland is purely biblical. The Jews have no more right to it than any defeated nation.

There is only one right and fair way to decide who rules any identifiable parcel of land and that is by a majority vote of the people on that land (democracy). All people should have self determination for the majority and that is what was denied the Palestinians. A privileged position was handed to the Jews and we can now see the result. That doesn't make the Israelis 'bad' as asked in the OP but some of their behaviour has been truly dreadful. I think I am correct to say that almost every head of security has resigned because of the dirty tricks they were being asked by the government to perform. SOME Israelis ARE bad and they have given the good ones a bad name.

I know about the History of the Jewish people. The fact remains, there has NEVER been a Palestinian State or a Palestinian people. Ever. So it's historically inaccurate to talk of a Palestinian State or people in what is now Israel. There has historically been a Jewish State and there's plenty of archaeological evidence to show this fact. OTOH, there is nothing to support the idea of a Palestinian State in the land. That's because they never existed as a people. This is a fact in spite of claims to the contrary.
 
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Aardverk

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........ there has NEVER been a Palestinian State or a Palestinian people. Ever. So it's historically inaccurate to talk of a Palestinian State or people in what is now Israel. ..........

Perhaps you are seeking to make a semantic argument? There are and there have been millions of Palestinians, vastly outnumbering the Jews they lived alongside. If you compare the man/years of Palestinians with the man/years of Jews living in what we now call Israel, the man/years of Jews would be fairly insignificant before say 1930.

You must remember that 'nation states' and indeed borders are a fairly new concept. They barely existed even just 100 years ago and were fairly flexible. Like the majority of the world's peoples, the Palestinians were not at all interested in Empires, Kingdoms, Caliphates, States or any other form of politics. They were a simple people living peaceably under whoever wanted to rule that land. Many Empires and Kingdoms have ruled that area but it made no practical difference to the Palestinians until the Jews returned in strength and they suddenly became second class, displaced people.

The fact that there has never been a fully autonomous, legally established 'State' of Palestine is totally irrelevant. The Palestinian people have existed, in peace, in that land, longer than the Jews have. The fact that they have not been a 'pushy' or striving people who tried to establish clear internationally recognised borders is no reason to ignore them now. You may want to regard them as backward or simple but a better description would be peaceful people living a simple life - for which they have unjustly suffered.

The existential (I hate that word) Palestinians had their land taken away from them by a superior power (Britain authorised by the UN) and given to someone else as a 'legally established state'. That was incredibly wrong in so many ways. The fact that the Jews claim a biblical right to the land should obviously have made no difference whatsoever. I can think of no other example in history where a group of people have been given such a vast privilege simply because they were a minority faith. All(?) other faiths have been allowed to die out or grow naturally. Here we have an artificially created religious state that has turned into a nightmare for the Palestinians.
 
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