lordworshipper
Free minded rational believer
I can assure them that such is not possible. Believe me, I've tried, many times at that.
[mpoc] So gay people should marry people they're not attrcted to? [/mpoc]
According to some.
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I can assure them that such is not possible. Believe me, I've tried, many times at that.So you think a gay man (or woman) would be better off being in a heterosexual relationship, even though they are homosexual? /mindboggle
Out of all them verses that agreed with me (that homosexual sex is a sin), not one of your attempts to prove that it a sin proved that homosexual attraction (i.e. homosexuality) is a sin. I don't have control over who I'm attracted to, neither does anyone, its not a matter of free will.The words and thoughts being spoken about came from the Holy Bible - God's Word. You can choose to ignore the Holy Bible if you want to, but I won't. The subject is sin, and God's Word is the Sole Authority on that subject. Dismiss it at your own peril. What you think versus the Holy Bible is not a contest, nor is what you think even material to this discussion.
The only way man's opinion on this would mean anything at all is to change the subject to what man thinks is good or bad. This isn't the question, rather sin is, so God's Word is the sole authority. I could care less what men think is good or bad unless what they think agrees with God's Word. God's Word means ALL - man's word means NOTHING on this subject. So, many of the posts in this thread are totally off topic. The question wasn't "what would you like to do or what do you think is good or bad?"
Sin is the sole Province of God, so the question is what does God say about this issue. Here's some samples of what God says about this issue:
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Genesis 18:19-23 KJV For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. 20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. 22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD. 23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
Genesis 18:19-23 AMP For I have known (chosen, acknowledged) him [as My own], so that he may teach and command his children and the sons of his house after him to keep the way of the Lord and to do what is just and righteous, so that the Lord may bring Abraham what He has promised him. 20 And the Lord said, Because the shriek [of the sins] of Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is exceedingly grievous, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether [as vilely and wickedly] as is the cry of it which has come to Me; and if not, I will know. 22 Now the [two] men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord. 23 And Abraham came close and said, Will You destroy the righteous (those upright and in right standing with God) together with the wicked?
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Genesis 19:4-7 KJV But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: 5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. 6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, 7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
Genesis 19:4-7 AMP But before they lay down, the men of the city of Sodom, both young and old, all the men from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said, Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know (be intimate with) them. 6 And Lot went out of the door to the men and shut the door after him 7 And said, I beg of you, my brothers, do not behave so wickedly.
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Leviticus 18:22-25 KJV Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. 23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. 24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
Leviticus 18:22-25 AMP You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination. [I Cor. 6:9, 10.] 23 Neither shall you lie with any beast and defile yourself with it; neither shall any woman yield herself to a beast to lie with it; it is confusion, perversion, and degradedly carnal. 24 Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, for in all these things the nations are defiled which I am casting out before you. 25 And the land is defiled; therefore I visit the iniquity of it upon it, and the land itself vomits out her inhabitants.
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Leviticus 20:13 KJV If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Leviticus 20:13 AMP If a man lies with a male as if he were a woman, both men have committed an offense (something perverse, unnatural, abhorrent, and detestable); they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
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Romans 1:22-28 KJV Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Romans 1:22-28 AMP Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves]. 23 And by them the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for and represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their [own] hearts to sexual impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves [abandoning them to the degrading power of sin], 25 Because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed forever! Amen (so be it). [Jer. 2:11.] 26 For this reason God gave them over and abandoned them to vile affections and degrading passions. For their women exchanged their natural function for an unnatural and abnormal one, 27 And the men also turned from natural relations with women and were set ablaze (burning out, consumed) with lust for one another--men committing shameful acts with men and suffering in their own bodies and personalities the inevitable consequences and penalty of their wrong-doing and going astray, which was [their] fitting retribution. 28 And so, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing, God gave them over to a base and condemned mind to do things not proper or decent but loathsome,
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1 Corinthians 6:9 KJV Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:9 AMP Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,
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Ephesians 4:18-19 KJV Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Ephesians 4:18-19 AMP Their moral understanding is darkened and their reasoning is beclouded. [They are] alienated (estranged, self-banished) from the life of God [with no share in it; this is] because of the ignorance (the want of knowledge and perception, the willful blindness) that is deep-seated in them, due to their hardness of heart [to the insensitiveness of their moral nature]. 19 In their spiritual apathy they have become callous and past feeling and reckless and have abandoned themselves [a prey] to unbridled sensuality, eager and greedy to indulge in every form of impurity [that their depraved desires may suggest and demand].
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Ephesians 5:11-12 KJV And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
Ephesians 5:11-12 AMP Take no part in and have no fellowship with the fruitless deeds and enterprises of darkness, but instead [let your lives be so in contrast as to] expose and reprove and convict them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of or mention the things that [such people] practice in secret.
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1 Timothy 1:9-10 KJV Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1 Timothy 1:9-10 AMP Knowing and understanding this: that the Law is not enacted for the righteous (the upright and just, who are in right standing with God), but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinful, for the irreverent and profane, for those who strike and beat and [even] murder fathers and strike and beat and [even] murder mothers, for manslayers, 10 [For] impure and immoral persons, those who abuse themselves with men, kidnapers, liars, perjurers--and whatever else is opposed to wholesome teaching and sound doctrine
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Jude 1:6-10 KJV And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. 10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Jude 1:6-10 AMP And angels who did not keep (care for, guard, and hold to) their own first place of power but abandoned their proper dwelling place--these He has reserved in custody in eternal chains (bonds) under the thick gloom of utter darkness until the judgment and doom of the great day. 7 [The wicked are sentenced to suffer] just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the adjacent towns--which likewise gave themselves over to impurity and indulged in unnatural vice and sensual perversity--are laid out [in plain sight] as an exhibit of perpetual punishment [to warn] of everlasting fire. [ Gen. 19.] 8 Nevertheless in like manner, these dreamers also corrupt the body, scorn and reject authority and government, and revile and libel and scoff at [heavenly] glories (the glorious ones). 9 But when [even] the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, judicially argued (disputed) about the body of Moses, he dared not [presume to] bring an abusive condemnation against him, but [simply] said, The Lord rebuke you! [Zech. 3:2.] 10 But these men revile (scoff and sneer at) anything they do not happen to be acquainted with and do not understand; and whatever they do understand physically [that which they know by mere instinct], like irrational beasts--by these they corrupt themselves and are destroyed (perish).
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So, What does God Say? God isn't interested in what men think or say, and neither am I. Again, on the subject of sin, God and His Word are the sole source and Authority. If you reject God and His Word, the subject matter would be minus the word "sin". It's all very simple.
Some of these posts would be valid if you changed the subject matter to something like: Is homosexuality and acts right or wrong according to man's standards? Leave God and sin out of the question. God's answer is blunt and without question.
So you think a gay man (or woman) would be better off being in a heterosexual relationship, even though they are homosexual? /mindboggle
Nope. He'd be better off submitting himself to Christ and casting his cares upon Him.
Yes it's easier said than done. But that is the process when dealing with sin. It must be given to God. A ot of times we say that we have given it to God, but we don't listen whn He tries to keep us from the same patterns that got us hooked into a stronghold in the first place.
Strongholds are only gonna be overcome by the power of the Holy Spirit.
In reality, Zaac ...you did not get those words from God. You got them from a book. True? I'm not saying that the advice is not good. All I'm saying is that you read the words - or were taught the words - from a book and those words formed a belief in your mind. God never actually and personally verbalized those words to you.
How do YOU 'follow Christ' in your everyday life, Zaac. It's fine saying it and you can say it until the cows come home ...but how do YOU actually 'follow Christ' in a way that you can explain to us?
How would your daily life be any different to that of a non-Christian?
But that's just your belief which - again - came from a book. God/Jesus is not contained in a book. I consider myself a Christian but I don't feel the need to continually tell everyone how bad they really are and need to change their ways to "my" expectations before God/Jesus will accept them.
But, this is YOUR interpretation/s of what 'God' expects from others, Zaac.
You are not the Creator God. You are not Jesus. You are Zaac who simply believes the words of a book that YOU have determined are those of God. For those who choose to believe in Jesus (as per John 3:16) there is no reason why they should not be an effective witness for Jesus whatever their sexual orientation or their choice of partner.
But what of the testimony of Christian gays that have struggled for years, remaining celibate, laying their concerns at Jesus' feet and yet nothing has changed?
Paul understood that the sex drive was, itself, not a mere temptation, but something stronger, and that if one does not have the gift that was given to him to withstand it, one would either give in to improper temptations or burn, unless the passions were satisfied in an acceptable way (that is, through marriage). (1 Corinthians 7:1-9)
Are you willing to put your life where your mouth is and declare that you will, from today onward, live a celibate life? None of the celibates that I know insist that another must choose that lifestyle, but I know too many people who enjoy married sex, but insist on denying other men that which they indulge themselves in.
It's not "merely" anything. It's not simple. It's temptation, but its not like trying not to cheat on ones wife, or trying not to steal, its far more difficult. I'm a virgin, sexually frustrated, 20 year old man with a high amount of hormone activity, but I have to be celibate. I can say for certain, its not simple.Now you're putting words in Pauls' mouth. It is mere temptation to be fled just as God's word says we are to do with sexual immorality.
Not everyone has a libido as low as yours, and after 40 years it will probably be a bit easier. Right now, its not.I've been celibate for 40 years by the grace of God Almighty. Next question.
Zaac, you should be well aware of the fact that many of us have done this for decades - bringing this issue to God - with absolutely NO CHANGE!Nope. He'd be better off submitting himself to Christ and casting his cares upon Him.
Yes it's easier said than done. But that is the process when dealing with sin. It must be given to God. A ot of times we say that we have given it to God, but we don't listen whn He tries to keep us from the same patterns that got us hooked into a stronghold in the first place.
Strongholds are only gonna be overcome by the power of the Holy Spirit.
I've got no clue when I began to pray for me to change, but I know its been at the very least a half a decade, which is 25% of my life. Actually, it just is getting worse.Zaac, you should be well aware of the fact that many of us have done this for decades - bringing this issue to God - with absolutely NO CHANGE!
It's not "merely" anything.
It's not simple. It's temptation, but its not like trying not to cheat on ones wife, or trying not to steal, its far more difficult.
I'm a virgin, sexually frustrated, 20 year old man with a high amount of hormone activity, but I have to be celibate. I can say for certain, its not simple.
Not everyone has a libido as low as yours, and after 40 years it will probably be a bit easier. Right now, its not.
Its torture right now, that's the only word i can use to describe it. I feel like Tantalus. I'm thirsty, I can see water, but I can't drink it. I see food, I'm hungry, but I can't eat it. I just stare at it, and yet worse, I can't even reach out for it, yet it sits right under my nose.
Well that's a fallacious statement if I saw one.Why? Because it's your situation? There is nothing new under the sun. People have been dealing with the same thing since the OT days.
What exactly is the difference between lust and sexual attraction?Sexually frustrated? How does one get frustrated by something you are not doing? You sound like someone who may need to separate himself from the sexual indoctrination of the tv, radio, movies and other media outlets.
You have a lust issue. you'r enot sexually frustrated.
You make it sound like I had an option, its do what is in my nature or beleive, what choice have I?My libidi is just fine thank you very much.Strongholds are always the sme. You got to start somewhere. And then just like an athlete who trains, you spiritually become stronger and stronger. But it is a day to day battle. I applaud you on remaining a virgin even up to 20. Not many in your generation see a reason to do so.
Make assumptions much?I DO know what you're saying. But like I said earlier, you got to let go of some of the stuff that you may be using for entertainment purposes. If you want to live the Godly life, you can't partake of the things of which a lot of worldly people partake.
I just about can't watch any movies anymore unless they are PG. And I haven't listened to anything but Christian music for years.
I wanted to but couldn't find a way.You need to get down to Haiti to help some people. It's hard to think about sex when you're helping people.
Zaac, you should be well aware of the fact that many of us have done this for decades - bringing this issue to God - with absolutely NO CHANGE!
Well that's a fallacious statement if I saw one.'
Just because they had to deal with this, doesn't mean it was easy.
What exactly is the difference between lust and sexual attraction?
Either way, it has nothing to do with TV, radio, movies nor media outlets. I don't do pornography. I'd have given in if I did. I don't watch much TV, radio, nor watch much movies.
You make it sound like I had an option, its do what is in my nature or beleive, what choice have I?
For you it got easier. Some people don't have asexual tendacies, for us, we have it alot harder, and it gets harder. If its easy for you now, great! It's not that way for us all.
Make assumptions much?
It seems like you are argueing that since alot of people deal with it, then it must be easy.So what about it makes it fallacious?
You referring to support groups? Yeah, I don't have any of those. So you may be right.Perhaps strongholds are called such for a reason?
Not society, and its more attraction than lust. I don't feel that I need to have sex with someone in particular per se, I just feel like I want to have intercourse. It's not society, its hormone levels.Not much. If you're gonna be attracted to someone, then be attracted to them. Why except for societal conditioning does the mind even have to go to the sexual aspect of it?
It certainly is ocoming from somewhere, its coming from hormone levels. It will do it to you.It's coming from somewhere. You're taking in something from somewhere that's got you thinking you're missing out sexually.
I do submit to God, let's hope it stops getting harder and gets easier.Of course you have an option. we always have an option as to whether or not we are going to be mastered by God or by something else.
The word of God says James 4:7
Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
The more you submit yourself to God, the easier it becomes to live in submission to Him instead of temptation.
Hormones. Nature's way of getting you to have sex.You're 20 years old and sexually frustrated. You gotta let go of something that has you thinking you need to be having sex. It's coming from somewhere.
I'll look it up.Hook up with Samritan's Purse or one of the Christian organizations who were there BEFORE9and I stress the BEFORE) the earthquake.
It seems like you are argueing that since alot of people deal with it, then it must be easy.
You referring to support groups? Yeah, I don't have any of those. So you may be right.
Not society, and its more attraction than lust. I don't feel that I need to have sex with someone in particular per se, I just feel like I want to have intercourse. It's not society, its hormone levels.
It certainly is ocoming from somewhere, its coming from hormone levels. It will do it to you.
I do submit to God, let's hope it stops getting harder and gets easier.
Hormones. Nature's way of getting you to have sex.
It's still not simple, as "merely" seemed to imply.No. Just the opposite. I just made that statement to say that it's nothing new. People have struggled with it in the past and will in the future. It is through the struggle that God refines us and better equips us to deal with all sorts of trials and temptations.
Don't know of any, but I'd be glad to meet one. It would be helpful to have some support in my struggle.Also, a stronghold has dug its feet in. you have GOT TO HAVE Godly Saints who can come along beside you to encourage you in your current walk. Is there a more mature Christian married man you can get to be a mentor? He can tell you some of the things that helped him in a similar situation.
Nobody stressed it in my mind on how good it feels. I don't touch either, though when I wash down there, I want to. Though when I was 15 I did, and it was a little easier then to deal with the temptation. I still longed for it. Its not becuase of society nor anyone saying anything to me, its because I'm programed biologically to seek it out. I'm human, just like you and straight people.But you want to have intercourse because SOMEBODY has stressed or put in your minde repeatedly how good it feels. You're dealing with sex from a worldly perspective when you need to be approaching it from a Godly perspective.
It is more than clear by my celibacy, that I already put God first. So its needless to say.God wants His relationship with you to be the primary focus in your life. Once that is where it is supposed to be and a foundation is placed down,
While I don't mind having a new best friend, I'd feel sorry for a woman having to be my wife. She'd have to not mind being in a celibate marriage. I have no interest in having sexual relations with a woman at all.you can start looking at adding to that foundation a relationship with the woman He has ordained to be your wife if that is His plan for you.
I'm never going to have sex, as I'm not interested in women. From the times I've tried to become straight, and from stories from others who've tried, I'm not giving my hopes up that I will become straight.Pray God's word into her life as she prays the word into your life. Build your relationship around growth in Him. And do it in His order. And when HE joins you to her, the love that you share in Him will no doubt blow your mind as opposed to the out of wedlock intercourse which would only leave you feeling guilty and separated from Him.
Nope. It's hormone levels. Its what drives everyone to want sex. Not society.Hormone levels alone are not gonna cause that unless you have taken in from somewhere else the need to have intercourse NOW...outside of wedlock.
Testasterone?Naah. Those hormones serve more than one function.
It's still not simple, as "merely" seemed to imply.
Don't know of any, but I'd be glad to meet one. It would be helpful to have some support in my struggle.
Nobody stressed it in my mind on how good it feels. I don't touch either, though when I wash down there, I want to. Though when I was 15 I did, and it was a little easier then to deal with the temptation.
I still longed for it.
Its not becuase of society nor anyone saying anything to me, its because I'm programed biologically to seek it out. I'm human, just like you and straight people.
.It is more than clear by my celibacy, that I already put God first. So its needless to say
While I don't mind having a new best friend, I'd feel sorry for a woman having to be my wife. She'd have to not mind being in a celibate marriage. I have no interest in having sexual relations with a woman at all.
I'm never going to have sex, as I'm not interested in women. From the times I've tried to become straight, and from stories from others who've tried, I'm not giving my hopes up that I will become straight.
Nope. It's hormone levels. Its what drives everyone to want sex. Not society.
Testasterone?
Zaac, you should be well aware of the fact that many of us have done this for decades - bringing this issue to God - with absolutely NO CHANGE!
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