Is Hell really "Eternal"?

[Tornero]

Hello All,

A question sprang to mind today, "is hell really forever?"

After starting to read the bible I have come accross a lot of quotes about "salvation for all". Such as

Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of god has appeared, brining salvation to all"

Now, I know that everyone cannot go to heaven, as then what would be the point of doing good deeds (not my view!).

But then I came accross something else that struck me, the Koine Greek word closest to the word "forever" acctually meant (roughly) "to which pertains to an age", and when the bible was first translated, this small mistake was made; so whenever forever is used in the bible, it doesnt mean eternal.

For example when Jonah was swallowed by thr great fish, he "went down to the land whose bars closed on me forever" - Jonah 2:6

Jonah was "released" after 3 days.

"Truly I tell you, you will never get out (of prison) until every last penny is payed" - Matthew 5:26

Jesus suggests that hell is only until you pay your debits to god?

So what are your thoughts friends?

Peace

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello All,

A question sprang to mind today, "is hell really forever?"

After starting to read the bible I have come accross a lot of quotes about "salvation for all". Such as
Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of god has appeared, brining salvation to all"
Now, I know that everyone cannot go to heaven, as then what would be the point of doing good deeds (not my view!).
But then I came accross something else that struck me, the Koine Greek word closest to the word "forever" acctually meant (roughly) "to which pertains to an age", and when the bible was first translated, this small mistake was made; so whenever forever is used in the bible, it doesnt mean eternal.
For example when Jonah was swallowed by thr great fish, he "went down to the land whose bars closed on me forever" - Jonah 2:6
Jonah was "released" after 3 days.
"Truly I tell you, you will never get out (of prison) until every last penny is payed" - Matthew 5:26

Jesus suggests that hell is only until you pay your debits to god?

So what are your thoughts friends?

Peace

Hi Tornero, unfortunately, all debts must be paid in full during this life (see Hebrews 9:27-28). It's also important to understand that since Jesus is the only one capable of paying these debts, those who die w/o Him cannot gain Him, and thereby eternal life, after this life is over.

In answer to your first question, "is Hell really forever"?, the Bible seems to indicate that it is. Revelation 20 tells us that the beast, the false prophet, the devil and their followers will suffer this fate:

"They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" Rev 20:10
​

Some, for various reasons, have a different opinion, however the text seems clear enough, does it not?

Yours and His,
David

 

[WithLoveFromAlyssa]

Is hell real? Is hell eternal?

 

[jasonsloss]

Hello All,

A question sprang to mind today, "is hell really forever?"

After starting to read the bible I have come accross a lot of quotes about "salvation for all". Such as

Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of god has appeared, brining salvation to all"

Now, I know that everyone cannot go to heaven, as then what would be the point of doing good deeds (not my view!).

But then I came accross something else that struck me, the Koine Greek word closest to the word "forever" acctually meant (roughly) "to which pertains to an age", and when the bible was first translated, this small mistake was made; so whenever forever is used in the bible, it doesnt mean eternal.

For example when Jonah was swallowed by thr great fish, he "went down to the land whose bars closed on me forever" - Jonah 2:6

Jonah was "released" after 3 days.

"Truly I tell you, you will never get out (of prison) until every last penny is payed" - Matthew 5:26

Jesus suggests that hell is only until you pay your debits to god?

So what are your thoughts friends?

Peace

here are somethings to look at...

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 165
Original Word Word Origin
aion from the same as (104)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Aion 1:197,31
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ahee-ohn' Noun Masculine
Definition
for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
the worlds, universe
period of time, age

NAS Word Usage - Total: 95
age 20, ages 6, ancient time 1, beginning of time 1, course 1, eternal 2, eternity 1, ever* 2, forever 27, forever and ever 20, forevermore 2, long ago 1, never* 1, old 1, time 1, world 7, worlds 1

NAS Verse Count
Matthew 9
Mark 4
Luke 7
John 6
Acts 2
Romans 5
1 Corinthians 6
2 Corinthians 3
Galatians 2
Ephesians 6
Philippians 1
Colossians 1
1 Timothy 2
2 Timothy 2
Titus 1
Hebrews 13
1 Peter 3
2 Peter 1
1 John 1
2 John 1
Jude 2
Revelation 13
Total 91
Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others; this is keyed to the large Kittel and the "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament." These files are public domain.
Bibliography Information
Thayer and Smith. "Greek Lexicon entry for Aion". "The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon". . 1999.

this the most common word in the new testament for forever...

 

[Tornero]

Hi Tornero, unfortunately, all debts must be paid in full during this life Hebrews 9:27-28. It's also important to understand that since Jesus is the only one capable of paying these debts, those who die w/o Him cannot gain Him, and thereby eternal life, after this life is over.

In answer to your first question, "is Hell really forever"?, the Bible seems to indicate that it is. Revelation 20 tells us that the beast, the false prophet, the devil and their followers will suffer this fate:

"They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" Rev 20:10
​

Some, for various reasons, have a different opinion, however the text seems clear enough, does it not?

Yours and His,
David

Matthew 18:8
Matthew 25:46
Mark 3:29
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Rev 14:6

When the word eternal or forever is used in these passages, it was translated from 'eon' which didn't mean eternal, it is more closer to 'age' or 'an age'. (Period of time)

There are lots of passages where the word eternal is used wrongly.

I am still not convinced that hell is eternal though. I'm sure there might be more passages..

Peace

 

[lesliedellow]

In the Cambridge Dictionary of New Testament Greek the meaning of [FONT=&quot]αιωνιος is given as: long ago; eternal; without end, everlasting - and that is the word which appears in Matthew 25.46.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I suspect the current enthusiasm for making it mean something different has its origins in trying to make the Bible more palatable to current sensibilities.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
There is no reason why the Bible always should be palatable to us.[/FONT]

 

[Tornero]

αἰώνιον, or 'aionion' derived from the word 'aion' which means 'age' or a finite period of time.

Every time eternal damnation is spoken of, eon or aionion is used.

The challenge of mainstream bible understandings is nothing new, take Arius of Alexander who challeneged Constintine I over issues such as the trinity. But as the Roman empire and all the church leaders of the Roman empire where influenced by their past paganisms, they liked the idea of a 'living'/ human god. So it stuck.

Anyway I am not convinced that it is eternal. My study of NDE's influenced my understanding of the bible

peace

 

[lesliedellow]

αἰώνιον, or 'aionion' derived from the word 'aion' which means 'age' or a finite period of time.

The challenge of mainstream bible understandings is nothing new, take Arius of Alexander who challeneged Constintine I over issues such as the trinity. But as the Roman empire and all the church leaders of the Roman empire where influenced by their past paganisms, they liked the idea of a 'living'/ human god. So it stuck.

The first recorded use of the word Trinity was by Theophilus of Antioch in 170, and we have no reason to suppose that the concept was new even to him. The Trinitarian baptismal formula in use by the end of the first century (see the Didache) would argue the opposite. The doctrine grew out of a need to reconcile the early Church's worship of Jesus with Jewish monotheism.

PS αἰώνι[FONT=&quot]ος([/FONT]ο&#957 means eternal in both ancient and modern Greek.

 

[Tornero]

No, the concept wasn't new to him. As I said the trinity was derived from paganisms, and as Christianity flourished most people where former pagans or had pagan backgrounds/cultures.

The number of nontriniterian worshippers greatly outnumbered triniterians, and after the council of Nicea it was still outnumbered. But Constinitine I banished and killed anyone who didn't believe in the Trinity and destroyed all records and documents, most notably Arius'. However there were numerous Germanic tribes that refused the Trinity and did so for generations

Baptising with the triniterian formula has nothing to do with the Trinity.

 

[lesliedellow]

No, the concept wasn't new to him. As I said the trinity was derived from paganisms, and as Christianity flourished most people where former pagans or had pagan backgrounds/cultures.

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O GOD, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." (Hebrews 1.8)

Not to mention the prologue of John's Gospel.

The use of a Trinitarian baptismal formula has everything to do with it. Nobody would baptise in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, unless they had a Trinitarian theology. (Would you?)

 

[Tornero]

I would baptise in such way.

I'm not sure what you mean about that Hebrews quote, but I only mean that hell is temporary (not for all), only eternal for people who do not except existance god even after death when they have seen evidence of him. But heaven is eternal. - That opinion has come from NDE research.

I think god is too loving to keep someone in hell just because he didn't except Jesus Christ, even though he spent his time being kind

Jesus always prays and talks of the father as being a different eentity. He speaks of the Father as having more authority as Christ. When I read the bible I interprate it for myself, rather than being told how to interparat it. Not saying that any view is wrong; each to their own
Peace

 

[lesliedellow]

I'm not sure what you mean about that Hebrews quote,

What I mean by the Hebrews quote is that it directly equates the Son (Jesus) with God.

I think god is too loving to keep someone in hell just because he didn't except Jesus Christ, even though he spent his time being kind

What you would like to be true does not take precedence over the Bible when it comes to deciding what is true - and Matthew 25.46 says what it says.

Trying to infer anything from something as little understood as NDEs is at best a dubious enterprise - especially when what you infer directly contradicts the text which is the foundation stone of Christianity.

 

[Tornero]

Its not contradicting the text, its only contradicting your interpretation of the text.

NDEs agree so repetitive that it would be foolish to not use them as some sort of source.

Strangely enough most people who come back from NDEs is that they claim that god or some devine being doesn't keep you in hell. That you place yourself in hell and the only person to save you from that is god.

Also your quote; the Hebrew word Elohim (god), is also used to describe an authoritative figure (or just authority), such as a judge or a ruler/ king ect. So in this case it was meant to mean authority rather than god. But as it was translated rather literally this was mistaken.

Peace

 

[lesliedellow]

Its not contradicting the text, its only contradicting your interpretation of the text.

Unless you want to change the meaning of Greek words it isn't just my interpretation.

NDEs agree so repetitive that it would be foolish to not use them as some sort of source.

No two reports of NDEs are the same, and certainly not all of them involve anything which could be described as an encounter with the divine. It is impossible to meaningfully investigate them because the experience is inaccessible to anybody except the person who has it.

Also your quote; the Hebrew word Elohim (god), is also used to describe an authoritative figure (or just authority), such as a judge or a ruler/ king ect. So in this case it was meant to mean authority rather than god. But as it was translated rather literally this was mistaken.

In case you hadn't noticed, the New Testament was written in Greek, and it is the Greek word [FONT=&quot]Θεος [/FONT]which is used to equate Jesus with God. That it involves a quote from the Old Testament is irrelevant, unless you think only the Old Testament was inspired.

 

[jasonsloss]

Its not contradicting the text, its only contradicting your interpretation of the text.

NDEs agree so repetitive that it would be foolish to not use them as some sort of source.

Strangely enough most people who come back from NDEs is that they claim that god or some devine being doesn't keep you in hell. That you place yourself in hell and the only person to save you from that is god.

Also your quote; the Hebrew word Elohim (god), is also used to describe an authoritative figure (or just authority), such as a judge or a ruler/ king ect. So in this case it was meant to mean authority rather than god. But as it was translated rather literally this was mistaken.

Peace

God is love this is true but everything God is comes from this love including His justice to condemn man to eternal punishment

 

[Tornero]

Θεος (Theos) in koine means 'a god'

θεον (Theon) in koine means 'god'

Logos (the word) is referred to as Theos
god is referred to as Theon

And all the rest of the time god is referred to as theon.

Although there is obviously koine grammar, but they could of used theon.

Saying that Logos is a god, and saying that god is the god suggests that they are different.

Are you sure you've read a NDE? 80% of people claim to see god. All the process and basic things they see are all the same mostly. I have studied NDEs for a long time.

The trinity isn't mentioned anywhere in the bible, and there is only a small amount of passages to back up this. But for Christ's division from god is more clear and written everywhere. If Jesus was god why did he pray to god? Why did he speak of god being another person? Christ is divine but not in equality as the father.

It is just interpretation, I would like to hear some passages that firmly grounds the trinity. If it was so important then why isn't it emphasized?

Peace

 

[lesliedellow]

Θεος (Theos) in koine means 'a god'

θεον (Theon) in koine means 'god'

You need to get your Greek grammar sorted out. Θεος is the indicative and θεον is the accusative.

In English the distinction only applies to pronouns, but take the words "I" and "me". They are both the first person singular, and they both refer to yours truly, but one is the indicative and one is the accusative.

 

[Tornero]

Okay be that is it may.

Why is the trinity not emphasized at all?

There are more instances of Jesus being separate from the father than them being equal.

And is there any other passages indicating the trinity?

 

[jasonsloss]

Θεος (Theos) in koine means 'a god'

θεον (Theon) in koine means 'god'

Logos (the word) is referred to as Theos
god is referred to as Theon

And all the rest of the time god is referred to as theon.

Although there is obviously koine grammar, but they could of used theon.

Saying that Logos is a god, and saying that god is the god suggests that they are different.

Are you sure you've read a NDE? 80% of people claim to see god. All the process and basic things they see are all the same mostly. I have studied NDEs for a long time.

The trinity isn't mentioned anywhere in the bible, and there is only a small amount of passages to back up this. But for Christ's division from god is more clear and written everywhere. If Jesus was god why did he pray to god? Why did he speak of god being another person? Christ is divine but not in equality as the father.

It is just interpretation, I would like to hear some passages that firmly grounds the trinity. If it was so important then why isn't it emphasized?

Peace

correction here is theos used alot...



The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 2316
Original Word Word Origin
qeoß of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with (3588)) the supreme Divinity
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Theos 3:65,322
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
theh'-os Noun Masculine
Definition
a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
the Godhead, trinity
God the Father, the first person in the trinity
Christ, the second person of the trinity
Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
spoken of the only and true God
refers to the things of God
his counsels, interests, things due to him
whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
God's representative or viceregent
of magistrates and judges

NAS Word Usage - Total: 1314
divinely 1, God 1267, god 6, God's 27, God-fearing 1, godly 2, godly* 1, gods 8, Lord 1

NAS Verse Count
Matthew 42
Mark 42
Luke 114
John 68
Acts 156
Romans 133
1 Corinthians 87
2 Corinthians 65
Galatians 28
Ephesians 31
Philippians 23
Colossians 20
1 Thessalonians 30
2 Thessalonians 14
1 Timothy 20
2 Timothy 13
Titus 12
Philemon 2
Hebrews 63
James 13
1 Peter 34
2 Peter 7
1 John 40
2 John 2
3 John 2
Jude 4
Revelation 87
Total 1152
Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others; this is keyed to the large Kittel and the "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament." These files are public domain

 

[seeingeyes]

Yes. Hell is eternal because our God is eternal and hell reflects the character of our God just as surely as heaven.

Now, what you make of that statement depends more on the Spirit than the Greek.