Is Hell Really Eternal? (2)

THIS said:

I can prove you wrong easily, but will you believe what the written Word says?

1 Corinthians 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

Click to expand...

The only ones who put on an immortal, incorruptible body are the righteous. Where in the Bible does it say that the wicked receive such?

Phoneman777 said:

Amen

Click to expand...

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 1 Corinthians 2:13 (NIV)

Complete Destruction
ολεθρος For a somewhat weakened use of this strong word, which in Biblical usage implies "ruin," the loss of all that gives worth to existence (see Milligan ad 1 Thess 5 3 ), cf. BGU IV. IO27 xxvi.11 (iv/A.D.) (as amended Chrest. I. p. 501)—a representation of the great danger that was being incurred at Hermopolis by the withholding of their annona from the soldiers for three years. Like Lat. pernicies.

απολλυμι, to destroy wholly, cause to perish, (see "DESTROY," No. 1.) (a) Mid., of persons, to be put to death; εις απωλεια, destruction
Bullinger P. 223

PERISH (-ED, -.) 1. απολλυμι, to destroy, cause to perish. Here, mid., (which is peculiar to N.T. Oreek) used of the eternal doom of the sinner, (chiefly by Paul and John) to be utterly and finally ruined and destroyed, to be lost, brought to nought, put to death . Bullinger P. 581

(In N.T. the future punishment of sin is clearly defined as death and destruction.) (non occ.).

Ps 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

If the "outrageous doctrine" of the traditionalists were true, God would be a "cruel" and "vindictive" deity. In fact, He would be "more nearly like Satan than like God, at least by any ordinary moral standards...." Indeed, the traditionalist's God is a "bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwitz for victims whom he does not even allow to die."
bible-reasearcher.com/hell5.html #Note2

Pinnock states, "it would amount to inflicting infinite suffering upon those who have committed finite sin. It would go far beyond an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. There would be a serious disproportion between sins committed in time and the suffering experienced forever." Such vindictiveness, we are told, is totally incompatible with the character of God and utterly unacceptable to "sensitive Christians." It would "serve no purpose" and be an act of "sheer vengeance and vindictiveness," which is "out of keeping with the love of God revealed in the gospels."

LeRoy Edwin Froom, in his book The Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers, presents a list of seventy words that he says demonstrate total annihilation. On the basis of these words, Froom exults triumphantly that "no loopholes are left." Edward W. Fudge likewise cites this list, and concludes: "Without exception they portray destruction, extinction or extermination."

The most common term translated "destroy" in the Old Testament is the Hebrew word abad. It is used to describe the fate of the wicked, as in, for example, Proverbs 11:10. Evildoers are also said to be "cut off." Fudge and Pinnock both cite Psalm 37:22, 28, 34, and 38 as representative Stott asserts that the verb apollumi means "destroy," and the noun apoleia means "destruction."

He cites Matthew 2:13, 12:14, and 27:4, which refer to Herod's desire to destroy the baby Jesus, and the later Jewish plot to have Him executed. Stott then mentions Matthew 10:28 (cf. James 4:12): "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy [apolesai] both soul and body in hell." He regards this "destruction" as a reference to the soul's total annihilation in hell.

Stott also offers the contrast between believers and unbelievers as manifest proof: "If believers are hoi sozomenoi (those who are being saved), then unbelievers are hoi apollumenoi (those who are perishing). This phrase occurs in 1 Corinthians 1:18, 2 Corinthians 2:15; 4:3, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:10." He believes that this language of destruction points to the total annihilation of the wicked.

Stott concludes: "It would seem strange, therefore, if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed; ... it is difficult to imagine a perpetually inconclusive process of perishing."

jamie2014 said:

Physical bodies are not immortal which is why there was a tree of life in the garden.

Fire sears the lungs and a person can't breath.

Click to expand...

I may be wrong but I believe there is a resurrection of the Just and of the Unjust just prior to Judgement. What this means is that resurrection Bodies will be especially equipped at this point to endure an eternity of punishment or of Bliss. Some may quip that this in only in regards to the righteous. However, I believe it to be all those who are resurrected:

1 Corinthians 15:50-58New King James Version (NKJV)
Our Final Victory
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[a]

55 “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”[c]
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

--------

Clarence Larkin Scholarly text about the resurrection of the Unjust:

Jesus clearly and distinctly taught a resurrection "from the grave." "Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good unto the 'Resurrection of LIFE, ' and they that have done evil unto the 'Resurrection of DAMNATION."' John 5:28, John 5:29. Here Jesus teaches the resurrection of both the "Righteous" and the "Wicked." The Apostle Paul taught the same thing. "And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the Dead, both of the just (justified), and of the Unjust (unjustified)."Acts 24:15. "For as in Adam all die (physically), even so in Christ shall all be made alive (physically)." 1Cor. 15:22. That the Apostle means "physical" death, and "physical" resurrection here, is clear, for it is the body, and not the spirit that he is discoursing about, and so the Universalist has no "proof text" here for the doctrine of "Universal Salvation." These passages clearly teach that there is to be a resurrection of "all the dead, " and if we did not look any further, we would be led to believe that the Righteous and the Wicked are not only to rise, but that they are to rise at the "same time." But when we turn to the Book of Revelation we find that the Righteous are to rise "before" the Wicked, and not simply precede them, but that there is a space of a 1000 years between the two Resurrections.

Above from:
Clarence Larkin Dispensational Truth Chapter 16
copywrite on works here are expired:

he-man said:

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 1 Corinthians 2:13 (NIV)

Complete Destruction
ολεθρος For a somewhat weakened use of this strong word, which in Biblical usage implies "ruin," the loss of all that gives worth to existence (see Milligan ad 1 Thess 5 3 ), cf. BGU IV. IO27 xxvi.11 (iv/A.D.) (as amended Chrest. I. p. 501)—a representation of the great danger that was being incurred at Hermopolis by the withholding of their annona from the soldiers for three years. Like Lat. pernicies.

απολλυμι, to destroy wholly, cause to perish, (see "DESTROY," No. 1.) (a) Mid., of persons, to be put to death; εις απωλεια, destruction
Bullinger P. 223

PERISH (-ED, -.) 1. απολλυμι, to destroy, cause to perish. Here, mid., (which is peculiar to N.T. Oreek) used of the eternal doom of the sinner, (chiefly by Paul and John) to be utterly and finally ruined and destroyed, to be lost, brought to nought, put to death . Bullinger P. 581

(In N.T. the future punishment of sin is clearly defined as death and destruction.) (non occ.).

Ps 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

If the "outrageous doctrine" of the traditionalists were true, God would be a "cruel" and "vindictive" deity. In fact, He would be "more nearly like Satan than like God, at least by any ordinary moral standards...." Indeed, the traditionalist's God is a "bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwitz for victims whom he does not even allow to die."
bible-reasearcher.com/hell5.html #Note2

Pinnock states, "it would amount to inflicting infinite suffering upon those who have committed finite sin. It would go far beyond an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. There would be a serious disproportion between sins committed in time and the suffering experienced forever." Such vindictiveness, we are told, is totally incompatible with the character of God and utterly unacceptable to "sensitive Christians." It would "serve no purpose" and be an act of "sheer vengeance and vindictiveness," which is "out of keeping with the love of God revealed in the gospels."

LeRoy Edwin Froom, in his book The Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers, presents a list of seventy words that he says demonstrate total annihilation. On the basis of these words, Froom exults triumphantly that "no loopholes are left." Edward W. Fudge likewise cites this list, and concludes: "Without exception they portray destruction, extinction or extermination."

The most common term translated "destroy" in the Old Testament is the Hebrew word abad. It is used to describe the fate of the wicked, as in, for example, Proverbs 11:10. Evildoers are also said to be "cut off." Fudge and Pinnock both cite Psalm 37:22, 28, 34, and 38 as representative Stott asserts that the verb apollumi means "destroy," and the noun apoleia means "destruction."

He cites Matthew 2:13, 12:14, and 27:4, which refer to Herod's desire to destroy the baby Jesus, and the later Jewish plot to have Him executed. Stott then mentions Matthew 10:28 (cf. James 4:12): "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy [apolesai] both soul and body in hell." He regards this "destruction" as a reference to the soul's total annihilation in hell.

Stott also offers the contrast between believers and unbelievers as manifest proof: "If believers are hoi sozomenoi (those who are being saved), then unbelievers are hoi apollumenoi (those who are perishing). This phrase occurs in 1 Corinthians 1:18, 2 Corinthians 2:15; 4:3, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:10." He believes that this language of destruction points to the total annihilation of the wicked.

Stott concludes: "It would seem strange, therefore, if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed; ... it is difficult to imagine a perpetually inconclusive process of perishing."

Click to expand...

does apollumi mean utterly destroy in every occasion? I think not. That is the fallacy of committing illegitimate totality transfer. In fact every day I drive by my car that is in the wrecking yard (Pick and Pull) It is destroyed, yet it still exists, in as many pieces as you can possibly imagine -lol. So I think that destruction does not speak of annihilation at all but a lack of well being, to ruin, or to render useless.

Here is a few Greek Word studies that agree:



RE: 2 Pet 3:5 wuest states:

“Perished” is apollumi (ἀπολλυμ&#953, “to ruin so that the thing ruined can no longer subserve the use for which it was designed.” - Wuest, K. S. (1997). Wuest’s word studies from the Greek New Testament: for the English reader (2 Pe 3:5). Grand Rapids: Eerdmans.

RE: Mark 22:2 wuest again states:

The Greek word apollumi (ἀπολλυμ&#953…It means “to destroy, to render useless.” - Wuest, K. S. (1997). Wuest’s word studies from the Greek New Testament: for the English reader (Mk 2:22). Grand Rapids: Eerdmans.

Wuest was a professor of New Testament Greek at the Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, and published over a dozen books on the New Testament...Wuest is credited as one of the translators of the original New American Standard Bible (NASB). He later went on to produce his own English translation of the New Testament (the Wuest Expanded Translation – abbreviated WET) based on Nestle's critical text. In his translation of the New Testament, Wuest attempts to make the original Greek more accessible to the lay reader by drawing out (in translation) the full variety of possible meanings and translations of the underlying Greek words.- wikipedia


Here Fudge argues the Old Testament teaches annihilation and therefore the New Testament must teach it as well. “When the Old Testament talks about the final end of the wicked, it uses language that sounds like total extinction.”- Edward Fudge “(more in depth discussion in link: http://www.mtio.com/articles/bissar21.htm), however this again is the fallacy of illegitimate totality transfer. Basically total extinction if you look it up means that something ceases to exist. If anything, our definition is more legitimate (destroy: to render useless). That is if one wanted to make a generalized blanket assessment of the word destroy, and I am not saying that it SHOULD, do so (it's illegitimate totality transfer). My definition however, would match more occasions of the word destroy in both old and new testament. But One thing I will not do, is state that just because Destroy means one thing in one passage in Hebrew (old testament), that it therefore means the same thing in another language (greek) and in another testament (new testament). Edward fudge does this exact thing which is an extraordinarily bad case of ITT (illegitimate totality transfer). Fudge regarding sulphur in revelation 14:10 states that "In the Bible the symbol derives its meaning from the annihilation of Sodom and Gomorrah." (Fudge, The Fire That Consumes, 296- 297) And then on next page states it “sounds out a message of extinction.” Note: some passages do have a message of destruction but not of extinction which indicates a lack of existence.
Now, In light of wuests definitions (above) regarding the greek word for destroy (New testament word) Strongs as well, is too simplistic a definition: "to destroy utterly"(strongs #622). Especially in verses like 2 Pet 3:5, or Mark 2:22 where apollumi definitely does not mean to destroy utterly (extinction) but to render useless or to ruin. I would venture to say that nothing is annihilated. Under no circumstances is something totally gone. Matter can exist in other forms, chemicals, or compositions (water, ice, and vapor). In Genesis 19:13 it mentions destroying “this place” and as a result there would be ash, and rubble. It still existed but in a different form (ash is chemically a different form of the fuel burned). The same can be said of energy: energy exists in other forms – i.e. the first law of thermodynamics. The law of conservation of energy states that no energy can be destroyed, but can change form. Such is the energy of the soul. It is eternal in whatever form it takes, for eternal fire or eternal bliss. So to believe that utter annihilation is what is meant in the new testament is a contradiction in hermeneutics and also in logical science.

Thank you for the post.

jamie2014 said:

The men in the furnace were not tormented.

Click to expand...

Irrelevant! The argument was made that fire sears the lungs and the person can't breathe. When God chooses He can and did ensure that men in a super heated furnace remained alive and unharmed. If God chooses to send the unrepentant to a fiery place of punishment, as scripture states, God can keep them alive to endure the punishment.

he-man said:

The most common term translated "destroy" in the Old Testament is the Hebrew word abad. It is used to describe the fate of the wicked, as in, for example, Proverbs 11:10. Evildoers are also said to be "cut off." Fudge and Pinnock both cite Psalm 37:22, 28, 34, and 38 as representative Stott asserts that the verb apollumi means "destroy," and the noun apoleia means "destruction."

He cites Matthew 2:13, 12:14, and 27:4, which refer to Herod's desire to destroy the baby Jesus, and the later Jewish plot to have Him executed. Stott then mentions Matthew 10:28 (cf. James 4:12): "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy [apolesai] both soul and body in hell." He regards this "destruction" as a reference to the soul's total annihilation in hell.

Stott also offers the contrast between believers and unbelievers as manifest proof: "If believers are hoi sozomenoi (those who are being saved), then unbelievers are hoi apollumenoi (those who are perishing). This phrase occurs in 1 Corinthians 1:18, 2 Corinthians 2:15; 4:3, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:10." He believes that this language of destruction points to the total annihilation of the wicked.

Stott concludes: "It would seem strange, therefore, if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed; ... it is difficult to imagine a perpetually inconclusive process of perishing."

Click to expand...

I don't normally coincide with the accusation of quote mining, but you seem to be doing so. In more accurate details you are quoting out of context with the above section taken without reference from

Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell

if you read right under it he dispells these notions of interpretation:

"Careful scrutiny of passages using these words shows, however, that they do not teach annihilation. Consider 1 Corinthians 1:18, one of the passages cited by Stott. This passage tells us that "the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing [tois apollumenois]." This participle is in the present tense, which, as Robert Reymond rightly notes, "describes existing people who are presently perishing. The verb does not suggest that their future state will be non-existence." [23]
As Reymond points out, Luke 15:8-9 uses the word to describe the lost but existing coin. In Luke 15:4 and 6 it describes the lost but existing sheep. The prodigal (but existing) son is described by this term in Luke 15:17, 24. [24] Murray Harris cites other passages, such as John 11:50, Acts 5:37, 1 Corinthians 10:9-10, and Jude 11, where the concept of destruction (apoleia) or perishing (apolusthai) need not imply annihilation. [25] Indeed, as Albrecht Oepke remarks in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, "What is meant here [in passages speaking of divine judgment] is not a simple extinction of existence, but an everlasting state of torment and death." [26]
It is true that apoleia is often translated "destruction" or "ruin." But Charles Hodge explains how "destruction" or "ruin" differs from annihilation: "To destroy is to ruin. The nature of that ruin depends on the nature of the subject of which it is predicated. A thing is ruined when it is rendered unfit for use; when it is in such a state that it can no longer answer the end for which it was designed ... A soul is utterly and forever destroyed when it is reprobated, alienated from God, rendered a fit companion only for the devil and his angels." [27]
Roger Nicole offers an illustration that highlights in a very lucid way the truth of Hodge's explanation. We speak of an automobile as wrecked, ruined, demolished, or "totalled," "not only when its constituent parts have been melted or scattered away, but also when they have been so damaged and twisted that the car has become completely unserviceable." [28]"

and this agrees with what I stated in my last post.

jamie2014 said:

Are you mocking Jesus? If so why?

Click to expand...

You are the one mocking Jesus! Jesus SAYS about the dead that they sleep.

YOU say they cease to exist.

jamie2014 said:

Which will occur at Christ's coming.

Behold, I shew you a mystery, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

​

Click to expand...

You are wrong.

The Bible says we are saved, see Romans 8:24 and Ephesians 2:5–8, it also says we are being saved, see 1 Corinthians 1:8, 2 Corinthians 2:15, and Philippians 2:12, and I have the assurance that I will be saved, Romans 5:9–10, and 1 Corinthians 3:12–15.


Scriptures that support the first resurrection, that of our spirits going to heaven with Jesus, before we die a physical death…

1 Corinthians 6:17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

John 6:56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Colossians 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

LittleLambofJesus said:

What do both of you think of this post concerning the death/sleep of Lazarus?


http://www.christianforums.com/t7829294/#post65880246


.

Click to expand...

It is about where people go after the death of their physical body.

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

Phoneman777 said:

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What is this stuff about Solomon words being hypothetical? The same Solomon says in chapter 12 that his words are "acceptable" and "wise" and sturdy as "nails" and "upright" and "truth" given by the One Shepherd, Jesus.

Click to expand...

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Tell me, HOW IS IT THAT YOU ASK ME QUESTIONS BUT DO NOT ANSWER MINE?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In Ecclesiastes, we are told the dead have NO MORE reward. Do you believe that or not? Do the dead have any more reward or not?[/FONT]

Phoneman777 said:

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Anyway, no one says that the spirit dies, ok? It RETURNS to God who gave it, whether it leaves the body of a righteous man, a wicked man, or an animal, got it? It RETURNS to God who gave it. Now, if you've been up there with God before you were born, then I'll believe that you can RETURN to God when you die. If not, get used to being in a dreamless, unconscious sleep until Jesus comes back, while the spirit that God put in you when you began RETURNS to Him when you end.

Click to expand...

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How do you EVER get that since God does not create our spirits until we are conceived on earth…that it means we cannot go to God with a conscience after the death of our bodies?[/FONT]

Phoneman777 said:

The only ones who put on an immortal, incorruptible body are the righteous. Where in the Bible does it say that the wicked receive such?

Click to expand...

We will all be raised, the righteous and the wicked.

THIS said:

We will all be raised, the righteous and the wicked.

Click to expand...

Indeed, however the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

jamie2014 said:

Indeed, however the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Click to expand...

There is first a spiritual resurrection. That happens when we are saved in this life.

gradyll said:

I don't normally coincide with the accusation of quote mining, but you seem to be doing so. In more accurate details you are quoting out of context with the above section taken without reference from .

Click to expand...

Just a few verses for correction of your thoughts:
Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Deu 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Psa 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Annihilationists frequently complain that it would be immoral for God to inflict everlasting torture on His creatures. Clark Pinnock regards the doctrine of endless punishment as "morally flawed" and a "moral enormity." If the "outrageous doctrine" of the traditionalists were true, God would be a "cruel" and "vindictive" deity. In fact, He would be "more nearly like Satan than like God, at least by any ordinary moral standards...."

Indeed, the traditionalist's God is a "bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwitz for victims whom he does not even allow to die." bible-reasearcher.com/hell5.html #Note2

Pinnock states, "it would amount to inflicting infinite suffering upon those who have committed finite sin. It would go far beyond an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. There would be a serious disproportion between sins committed in time and the suffering experienced forever." Such vindictiveness, we are told, is totally incompatible with the character of God and utterly unacceptable to "sensitive Christians." It would "serve no purpose" and be an act of "sheer vengeance and vindictiveness," which is "out of keeping with the love of God revealed in the gospels."

LeRoy Edwin Froom, in his book The Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers, presents a list of seventy words that he says demonstrate total annihilation. On the basis of these words, Froom exults triumphantly that "no loopholes are left." Edward W. Fudge likewise cites this list, and concludes: "Without exception they portray destruction, extinction or extermination." The most common term translated "destroy" in the Old Testament is the Hebrew word abad. It is used to describe the fate of the wicked, as in, for example, Proverbs 11:10. Evildoers are also said to be "cut off."

Fudge and Pinnock both cite Psalm 37:22, 28, 34, and 38 as representative Stott asserts that the verb apollumi means "destroy," and the noun apoleia means "destruction." He cites Matthew 2:13, 12:14, and 27:4, which refer to Herod's desire to destroy the baby Jesus, and the later Jewish plot to have Him executed. Stott then mentions Matthew 10:28 (cf. James 4:12): "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy [apolesai] both soul and body in hell."

He regards this "destruction" as a reference to the soul's total annihilation in hell. Stott also offers the contrast between believers and unbelievers as manifest proof: "If believers are hoi sozomenoi (those who are being saved), then unbelievers are hoi apollumenoi (those who are perishing). This phrase occurs in 1 Corinthians 1:18, 2 Corinthians 2:15; 4:3, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:10." He believes that this language of destruction points to the total annihilation of the wicked.

Stott concludes: "It would seem strange, therefore, if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed; ... it is difficult to imagine a perpetually inconclusive process of perishing."

"To destroy is to ruin. The nature of that ruin depends on the nature of the subject of which it is predicated. A thing is ruined when it is rendered unfit for use; when it is in such a state that it can no longer answer the end for which it was designed ... Pinnock states, for example, that the Bible repeatedly "uses the imagery of fire consuming (not torturing) what is thrown into it. The images of fire and destruction together strongly suggest annihilation rather than unending torture."

Pinnock then cites Malachi 4:1 as a case in point. [Stott] says that the main function of fire is not to cause pain but to secure destruction, as in the case of an incinerator. The Bible speaks of a "consuming fire" and of "burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt. 3:12; cf. Luke 3:17). Stott concludes, "The fire itself is termed 'eternal' and 'unquenchable' but it would be very odd if what is thrown into it proved indestructible.

Our expectation would be the opposite: it would be consumed forever, not tormented forever. Hence it is the smoke (evidence that the fire has done its work) which 'rises forever and ever' (Rev. 14:11; cf. 19:3)."
Stott (Evangelical Essentials
LeRoy Froom The Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers, 2 vols. (Washington, DC: The Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1965).
Fudge, "Final End of the Wicked," .

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

he-man said:

Just a few verses for correction of your thoughts:
Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Deu 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Psa 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Annihilationists frequently complain that it would be immoral for God to inflict everlasting torture on His creatures. Clark Pinnock regards the doctrine of endless punishment as "morally flawed" and a "moral enormity." If the "outrageous doctrine" of the traditionalists were true, God would be a "cruel" and "vindictive" deity. In fact, He would be "more nearly like Satan than like God, at least by any ordinary moral standards...."

Indeed, the traditionalist's God is a "bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwitz for victims whom he does not even allow to die." bible-reasearcher.com/hell5.html #Note2

Pinnock states, "it would amount to inflicting infinite suffering upon those who have committed finite sin. It would go far beyond an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. There would be a serious disproportion between sins committed in time and the suffering experienced forever." Such vindictiveness, we are told, is totally incompatible with the character of God and utterly unacceptable to "sensitive Christians." It would "serve no purpose" and be an act of "sheer vengeance and vindictiveness," which is "out of keeping with the love of God revealed in the gospels."

LeRoy Edwin Froom, in his book The Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers, presents a list of seventy words that he says demonstrate total annihilation. On the basis of these words, Froom exults triumphantly that "no loopholes are left." Edward W. Fudge likewise cites this list, and concludes: "Without exception they portray destruction, extinction or extermination." The most common term translated "destroy" in the Old Testament is the Hebrew word abad. It is used to describe the fate of the wicked, as in, for example, Proverbs 11:10. Evildoers are also said to be "cut off."

Fudge and Pinnock both cite Psalm 37:22, 28, 34, and 38 as representative Stott asserts that the verb apollumi means "destroy," and the noun apoleia means "destruction." He cites Matthew 2:13, 12:14, and 27:4, which refer to Herod's desire to destroy the baby Jesus, and the later Jewish plot to have Him executed. Stott then mentions Matthew 10:28 (cf. James 4:12): "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy [apolesai] both soul and body in hell."

He regards this "destruction" as a reference to the soul's total annihilation in hell. Stott also offers the contrast between believers and unbelievers as manifest proof: "If believers are hoi sozomenoi (those who are being saved), then unbelievers are hoi apollumenoi (those who are perishing). This phrase occurs in 1 Corinthians 1:18, 2 Corinthians 2:15; 4:3, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:10." He believes that this language of destruction points to the total annihilation of the wicked.

Stott concludes: "It would seem strange, therefore, if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed; ... it is difficult to imagine a perpetually inconclusive process of perishing."

"To destroy is to ruin. The nature of that ruin depends on the nature of the subject of which it is predicated. A thing is ruined when it is rendered unfit for use; when it is in such a state that it can no longer answer the end for which it was designed ... Pinnock states, for example, that the Bible repeatedly "uses the imagery of fire consuming (not torturing) what is thrown into it. The images of fire and destruction together strongly suggest annihilation rather than unending torture."

Pinnock then cites Malachi 4:1 as a case in point. [Stott] says that the main function of fire is not to cause pain but to secure destruction, as in the case of an incinerator. The Bible speaks of a "consuming fire" and of "burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt. 3:12; cf. Luke 3:17). Stott concludes, "The fire itself is termed 'eternal' and 'unquenchable' but it would be very odd if what is thrown into it proved indestructible.

Our expectation would be the opposite: it would be consumed forever, not tormented forever. Hence it is the smoke (evidence that the fire has done its work) which 'rises forever and ever' (Rev. 14:11; cf. 19:3)."
Stott (Evangelical Essentials
LeRoy Froom The Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers, 2 vols. (Washington, DC: The Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1965).
Fudge, "Final End of the Wicked," .

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Click to expand...

really? a torn piece of paper that is destroyed, doesn't exist anymore?

How do you answer this illegitimate totalitarian transfer of terms?

so when you say this quote:

LeRoy Edwin Froom, in his book The Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers, presents a list of seventy words that he says demonstrate total annihilation. On the basis of these words, Froom exults triumphantly that "no loopholes are left." Edward W. Fudge likewise cites this list, and concludes: "Without exception they portray destruction, extinction or extermination."

Click to expand...

one of the terms is "torn" how in the world does "torn" mean extinct?

like i said, a torn piece of paper doesn't exist anymore?

How do you answer that?

Phoneman777 said:

The only ones who put on an immortal, incorruptible body are the righteous. Where in the Bible does it say that the wicked receive such?

Click to expand...

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in [size=+1]שאול[/size]/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.


In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

gradyll said:

really? a torn piece of paper that is destroyed, doesn't exist anymore? How do you answer that?

Click to expand...

Please conjure up an explanation for this if you think abad is not the most common term translated "destroy" in the Old Testament or if you think the Hebrew word abad means a torn piece of paper: Ps 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in His hand, and He will throughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. So you admit there will be a second death? That must mean no more torture or tears either?

The 19th century Young's Literal Translation and Rotherham's Emphasized Bible both try to be as literal a translation as possible and do not use the word Hell at all, keeping the words Hades and Gehenna untranslated. Annihilationists understand Gehenna to be a place where sinners are eventually utterly destroyed, not tormented forever.

Earlier in the 20th century, some theologians at the University of Cambridge including Basil Atkinson supported the belief. 20th-century English theologians who favour annihilation include Bishop Charles Gore (1916),[4] William Temple, 98th Archbishop of Canterbury (1924);[5] Oliver Chase Quick, Chaplain to the Archbishop of Canterbury (1933),[6] Ulrich Ernst Simon (1964),[7] and Caird G. B., The Revelation of St John the Divine London: A. and C. Black., 1966, pp. 186f., 260.

Additionally, the Church of England's Doctrine Commission reported in 1995 that "[h]ell is not eternal torment", but "non-being". Some Protestant and Anglican writers have also proposed annihilationist doctrines.

The ancient Aramaic paraphrase-translations of the Hebrew Bible supply the term "Gehinnom" frequently to verses touching upon resurrection, judgment, and the fate of the wicked. This may also include addition of the phrase "second death", as in the final chapter of the Book of Isaiah, where the Hebrew version does not mention either Gehinnom or the Second Death, whereas the Targums add both. In this the Targums are parallel to the Gospel of Mark addition of "Gehenna" to the quotation of the Isaiah verses describing the corpses "where their worm does not die"
McNamara, Targums and Testament, ISBN 978-0716506195

There is evidence however that the southwest shoulder of this valley (Ketef Hinnom) was a burial location with numerous burial chambers that were reused by generations of families from as early as the seventh until the fifth century BCE. The use of this area for tombs continued into the first centuries BCE and CE.

By 70 CE, the area was not only a burial site but also a place for cremation of the dead with the arrival of the Tenth Roman Legion, who were the only group known to practice cremation in this region.
Gabriel Barkay, "The Riches of Ketef Hinnom." Biblical Archaeological Review 35:4-5 (2005): 22–35, 122–26.

In the synoptic gospels Jesus uses the word Gehenna 11 times to describe the opposite to life in the Kingdom (Mark 9:43-48).[29] It is a place where both soul and body could be destroyed (Matthew 10:28: "....rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in, 'Gehenna.'".

αποτομη, ης, η a cutting off: & αποτομια, ας, η, seveity: fr. αποτομος, ο, η, abrupt, cut or broken off ; by metaph. severe: Hence, αποτομως, adv. severely, precisely
Page 79 English and Greek Lexicon Page 22 Cutting, τομη, τομηα: by cutting, off, αποτομη

The word "severity" now suggests sometimes the idea of harshness, or even of cruelty. (Webster.) But nothing of this kind is conveyed in the original word here. It properly denotes "cutting off," αποτομίαν apotomian from αποτέμνω apotemnō, to cut off; and is commonly applied to the act of the gardener or vine-dresser in trimming trees or vines, and cutting off the decayed or useless branches.

Here it refers to the act of God in cutting off or rejecting the useless branches; and conveys no idea of injustice, cruelty, or harshness. It was a just act, and consistent with all the perfections of God. It indicated a purpose to do what was right, though the inflictions might seem to be severe, and though they must involve them in many heavy calamities.
G5114 Swords of the Soul and Spirit – Scribd tomōteros tom-o'-ter-os Compound of a derivative of the primary word τεμνω temnō (to cut; more comprehensive or decisive than G2875

The term severity αποτομια [Strong's G663], from απο [Strong's G575], from, and τεμνω, to cut off, properly denotes excision, cutting off, as the gardener cuts off, with a pruning knife, dead boughs, or luxuriant stems.
Treasury of Scripture Knowledge

Commentary on the Bible, Adam Clarke “but it was severity, αποτομια, an act of excision, Rom 11:1;
Deu 7:10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy [אבד ] them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.
Spec, a) Of things, to destroy, to lay waste, 2 K. 19, 18. Num. 33, 52. Deut. 12, 2. ) to waste one's substance, Prov. 29, 3. b) Of men, to destroy, to kill, to put to death,
Esth. 3, 9. 13. 2 K. 11, 1. 13, 7. to destroy, to cut off, as men and nations, Deut. 7, 10. 8, 20 ; Lev. 23, 30 ; Deut. 7, 24 ; also of a land, to lay waste, Zeph. 2, 5 ;

It is God who controls life and excision from life:
destroying angel 2 Sam. 24. 16, and the destroyer Ex. 12, 23, i. e. the angel of God who inflicts calamities and death upon men;
comp.1 Chr. 21, 12. Jer. 51, 1 Page 1053

Job 14, 19. Very rarely the quiescent X in 1 pers. fut. is dropped, as in Jer. 46, 8.
Deriv. Chald. fut. to perish. Jer. 10, 11. Aph. to destroy, to cut off, Dan. 2, 12. 18^ 24.
after the Heb. minner, Dan. 7, li.Participial noun, destruction, Num. 24, 20. 24. See Lehrg. p. 488.
2. place of destruction, abyss, i. e. Sheol, Hades, Prov. 27, 20 Chethibh. "m. 1. destruction, Job 31, 12. 2. place of destruction, abyss, nearly synon. with Job 26, 6. 28, 22. Prov. 15, 11
m. verbal of Piel for without Dag. lene in destruction, slaughter, Esth. 9, 5. id. destruction death, Esth. 8, 6. Page 3. 4

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him:

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall pay the penalty with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

διασείσητε διασείσητε διασειώ concussion, use of force, do violence to, shake, rive; tear or be torn violently, break through, disintegrate, disrupt, rupture
ποταμος waterway, river, riven; tear or be torn violently

he-man said:

LeRoy Edwin Froom, in his book The Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers, presents a list of seventy words that he says demonstrate total annihilation. On the basis of these words, Froom exults triumphantly that "no loopholes are left." Edward W. Fudge likewise cites this list, and concludes: "Without exception they portray destruction, extinction or extermination."

Click to expand...

he mentions seventy words that represent total annihilation in his works. One on the list was torn.

how in the world does "torn" mean extinct?

like i said, a torn piece of paper doesn't exist anymore?

How do you answer that?

He can't answer that so he will just continue to cut and paste the same stuff over and over. Volume over substance.

gradyll said:

he mentions seventy words that represent total annihilation in his works. One on the list was torn. how in the world does "torn" mean extinct?

Click to expand...

I guess you can't read GREEK?
διασείσητε διασείσητε διασειώ concussion, use of force, do violence to, shake, rive; tear or be torn violently, break through, , disrupt, rupture
ποταμος waterway, river, riven; tear or be torn violently

Please conjure up an explanation for this if you think it is a metaphor: Ps 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in His hand, and He will throughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. So you admit there will be a second death? That must mean no more torture or tears either?

The 19th century Young's Literal Translation and Rotherham's Emphasized Bible both try to be as literal a translation as possible and do not use the word Hell at all, keeping the words Hades and Gehenna untranslated. Annihilationists understand Gehenna to be a place where sinners are eventually utterly destroyed, not tormented forever.

Earlier in the 20th century, some theologians at the University of Cambridge including Basil Atkinson supported the belief. 20th-century English theologians who favour annihilation include Bishop Charles Gore (1916),[4] William Temple, 98th Archbishop of Canterbury (1924);[5] Oliver Chase Quick, Chaplain to the Archbishop of Canterbury (1933),[6] Ulrich Ernst Simon (1964),[7] and Caird G. B., The Revelation of St John the Divine London: A. and C. Black., 1966, pp. 186f., 260.

Additionally, the Church of England's Doctrine Commission reported in 1995 that "[h]ell is not eternal torment", but "non-being". Some Protestant and Anglican writers have also proposed annihilationist doctrines.

The ancient Aramaic paraphrase-translations of the Hebrew Bible supply the term "Gehinnom" frequently to verses touching upon resurrection, judgment, and the fate of the wicked. This may also include addition of the phrase "second death", as in the final chapter of the Book of Isaiah, where the Hebrew version does not mention either Gehinnom or the Second Death, whereas the Targums add both. In this the Targums are parallel to the Gospel of Mark addition of "Gehenna" to the quotation of the Isaiah verses describing the corpses "where their worm does not die"
McNamara, Targums and Testament, ISBN 978-0716506195

There is evidence however that the southwest shoulder of this valley (Ketef Hinnom) was a burial location with numerous burial chambers that were reused by generations of families from as early as the seventh until the fifth century BCE. The use of this area for tombs continued into the first centuries BCE and CE.

By 70 CE, the area was not only a burial site but also a place for cremation of the dead with the arrival of the Tenth Roman Legion, who were the only group known to practice cremation in this region.
Gabriel Barkay, "The Riches of Ketef Hinnom." Biblical Archaeological Review 35:4-5 (2005): 22–35, 122–26.

In the synoptic gospels Jesus uses the word Gehenna 11 times to describe the opposite to life in the Kingdom (Mark 9:43-48).[29] It is a place where both soul and body could be destroyed (Matthew 10:28: "....rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in, 'Gehenna.'".

αποτομη, ης, η a cutting off: & αποτομια, ας, η, seveity: fr. αποτομος, ο, η, abrupt, cut or broken off ; by metaph. severe: Hence, αποτομως, adv. severely, precisely
Page 79 English and Greek Lexicon Page 22 Cutting, τομη, τομηα: by cutting, off, αποτομη

The word "severity" now suggests sometimes the idea of harshness, or even of cruelty. (Webster.) But nothing of this kind is conveyed in the original word here. It properly denotes "cutting off," αποτομίαν apotomian from αποτέμνω apotemnō, to cut off; and is commonly applied to the act of the gardener or vine-dresser in trimming trees or vines, and cutting off the decayed or useless branches.

Here it refers to the act of God in cutting off or rejecting the useless branches; and conveys no idea of injustice, cruelty, or harshness. It was a just act, and consistent with all the perfections of God. It indicated a purpose to do what was right, though the inflictions might seem to be severe, and though they must involve them in many heavy calamities.
G5114 Swords of the Soul and Spirit – Scribd tomōteros tom-o'-ter-os Compound of a derivative of the primary word τεμνω temnō (to cut; more comprehensive or decisive than G2875

The term severity αποτομια [Strong's G663], from απο [Strong's G575], from, and τεμνω, to cut off, properly denotes excision, cutting off, as the gardener cuts off, with a pruning knife, dead boughs, or luxuriant stems.
Treasury of Scripture Knowledge

Commentary on the Bible, Adam Clarke “but it was severity, αποτομια, an act of excision, Rom 11:1;
Deu 7:10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy [אבד ] them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.
Spec, a) Of things, to destroy, to lay waste, 2 K. 19, 18. Num. 33, 52. Deut. 12, 2. ) to waste one's substance, Prov. 29, 3. b) Of men, to destroy, to kill, to put to death,
Esth. 3, 9. 13. 2 K. 11, 1. 13, 7. to destroy, to cut off, as men and nations, Deut. 7, 10. 8, 20 ; Lev. 23, 30 ; Deut. 7, 24 ; also of a land, to lay waste, Zeph. 2, 5 ;

It is God who controls life and excision from life:
destroying angel 2 Sam. 24. 16, and the destroyer Ex. 12, 23, i. e. the angel of God who inflicts calamities and death upon men;
comp.1 Chr. 21, 12. Jer. 51, 1 Page 1053

Job 14, 19. Very rarely the quiescent X in 1 pers. fut. is dropped, as in Jer. 46, 8.
Deriv. Chald. fut. to perish. Jer. 10, 11. Aph. to destroy, to cut off, Dan. 2, 12. 18^ 24.
after the Heb. minner, Dan. 7, li.Participial noun, destruction, Num. 24, 20. 24. See Lehrg. p. 488.
2. place of destruction, abyss, i. e. Sheol, Hades, Prov. 27, 20 Chethibh. "m. 1. destruction, Job 31, 12. 2. place of destruction, abyss, nearly synon. with Job 26, 6. 28, 22. Prov. 15, 11
m. verbal of Piel for without Dag. lene in destruction, slaughter, Esth. 9, 5. id. destruction death, Esth. 8, 6. Page 3. 4

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him:

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall pay the penalty with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power