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Bumped to the top in response to yet an other Hell:no! thread.
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Fudge is just another scholar giving his opinion. Note the complete lack of any evidence supporting this accusation that the doctrine of eternal punishment in hell is "a pollution from paganism via the apologists and their followers and not at all the clear teaching of Scripture." Historical evidence presented several times in this and other threads proves that the Christian belief is eternal punishment did not originate in paganism but in pre-Christian Judaism and the teaching of Jesus.
Based on historical evidence below the Hell:No! view being presented in this forum is not Biblical. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,
"Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
"the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
"cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, Mt 13:42, 50
better for [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
it had been good for [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born. Mat 26:24
These teachings supported and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. Jesus was born in and grew to maturity in 1st century Israel. He knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.
Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Jewish Encyclopedia Online
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / JulySeptember 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1
Note there is no archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.
Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to life: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus allusion to Isaiah 66:24. (The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), The Valley of Hinnom, lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the citys rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source. (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism - Bible Truth Discussion Forum
The god Molech is what got Solomon in hugh trouble in the OT.......1Ki 11:Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
Bumped to the top in response to yet an other Hell:no! thread.
<G3639> <G622> Usage in the NT
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,
1Ti 6:9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and many unwise and hurtful lusts, which plunge men into destruction and ruin.
STRONG:¨ολεθρος From ὄλλυμι ollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.
LOUW-NIDA: a ruin (state) b destruction 20.34
THAYER 1) ruin, destroy, death
LSJ: ¨¨ ὄλεθρ-ος, ὁ, A ruin, destruction, death, αἰπὺς ὄ. Il.11.174 , al.; λυγρὸς ὄ. 10.174 , al.; ὄ. ἀδευκής Od.4.489 ; οἴκτιστος ὄ. 23.79 ; ἵνα ψυχῆς ὤκιστος ὄ. Il.22.325 ; ὀλέθρου πείρατα, like τέλος θανάτοιο, the consummation of death, 6.143 ; ὄ., opp. γένεσις, Parm.8.21 , 27 ; οὐκ εἰς ὄλεθρον; as an imprecation, plague take thee! S.OT430 ; χρημάτων ὀλέθρῳ by destruction of property. Th.7.27 ; εἶναι ἐν ὀλέθρῳ Antipho 1.29 ; ἐπʼ ὀλέθρῳ τῶν χρωμένων E.Ph.534 ;
AUTENRIETH: ὄλεθρος (ὄλλῡμι: destruction, ruin, death;αἰπύς, λυγρός, ἀδευκής, οἴκτιστος.
LSJ: destroy, make an end of, and of living beings, kill, νῆάς τʼ ὀλέσας καὶ πάντας Ἀχαιούς Il.8.498 , cf. Od.23.319;
Med., I perish, come to an end, and of living beings, die, esp. a violent death, ἀπʼ αἰῶνος νέος ὤλεο Il.24.725
(mid. and intrans. aor. and perf.) perish, die
SLATER: ¨¨ destroy τρεῖς τε καὶ δέκʼ ἄνδρας ὀλέσαις (sc. ΟἰνόμαοςO. 1.79
MIDDLELIDDELL: ὄλλυμι from Root !ολ
A Act. = Lat. perdo,
1. to destroy, make an end of , Hom., Trag.:also of doing away with evil, ὤλεσεν νόσον Aesch. II to lose , θυμόν, ψυχήν, μένος, ἦτορ ὀλέσαι to lose life, Hom.; Mid., = Lat. pereo,
1. to perish, come to an end , Hom.; also c. acc. cogn., κακὸν οἶτον, κακὸν μόρον ὀλέσθαι to die by an evil death, Il.: ὄλοιο, ὄλοισθε mayʼst thou, may ye, perish! an imprecation,
2. to be ruined, undone , Hom., Hom. III perf. ὄλωλα, in sense of Mid., to have perished, to be undone, ruined , Il., Aesch., etc.; τῶν ὀλωλότων of the dead , Aesch.
Mar 12:9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy <G622 ὄλλυμι> the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.
ἀπόλλυμι, ἀπόλλῡμι, ἀπολῶ, ἀπώλεσα (trans) or ἀπωλόμην (intrans), ἀπολώλεκα (trans) or ἀπόλωλα (intrans)ς ΧΧΧ, ΧΧΧ, kill, (mid. and intrans.) die, cease to exist
LSJ: Prep. postponed in Od.9.534 :stronger form of ὄλλυμι, destroy utterly, kill, in Hom. mostly of death in battle, ἀπώλεσε λαὸν Ἀχαιῶν 11.5.758 , al.;
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
THAYER: 1) to destroy 1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless 1c) to kill 1d) to declare that one must be put to death
MIDDLELIDDELL: ἀπόλλυμι 1. to destroy utterly, kill, slay , and of things, to destroy, demolish, waste
LOUW-NIDA: a. destroy
STRONG G622 ὄλλυμι ἀπόλλυμι ἀπολέσει From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully
2Co 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that ἀπόλλυμι:
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are ἀπόλλυμι:
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that ἀπόλλυμι; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Originally Posted by he-man
<G3639> <G622> Usage in the NT
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,
1Ti 6:9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and many unwise and hurtful lusts, which plunge men into destruction and ruin.
STRONG:¨ολεθρος From ὄλλυμι ollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.
LOUW-NIDA: a ruin (state) b destruction 20.34
THAYER 1) ruin, destroy, death
LSJ: ¨¨ ὄλεθρ-ος, ὁ, A ruin, destruction, death, αἰπὺς ὄ. Il.11.174 , al.; λυγρὸς ὄ. 10.174 , al.; ὄ. ἀδευκής Od.4.489 ; οἴκτιστος ὄ. 23.79 ; ἵνα ψυχῆς ὤκιστος ὄ. Il.22.325 ; ὀλέθρου πείρατα, like τέλος θανάτοιο, the consummation of death, 6.143 ; ὄ., opp. γένεσις, Parm.8.21 , 27 ; οὐκ εἰς ὄλεθρον; as an imprecation, plague take thee! S.OT430 ; χρημάτων ὀλέθρῳ by destruction of property. Th.7.27 ; εἶναι ἐν ὀλέθρῳ Antipho 1.29 ; ἐπʼ ὀλέθρῳ τῶν χρωμένων E.Ph.534 ;
AUTENRIETH: ὄλεθρος (ὄλλῡμι: destruction, ruin, death;αἰπύς, λυγρός, ἀδευκής, οἴκτιστος.
LSJ: destroy, make an end of, and of living beings, kill, νῆάς τʼ ὀλέσας καὶ πάντας Ἀχαιούς Il.8.498 , cf. Od.23.319;
Med., I perish, come to an end, and of living beings, die, esp. a violent death, ἀπʼ αἰῶνος νέος ὤλεο Il.24.725
(mid. and intrans. aor. and perf.) perish, die
SLATER: ¨¨ destroy τρεῖς τε καὶ δέκʼ ἄνδρας ὀλέσαις (sc. ΟἰνόμαοςO. 1.79
MIDDLELIDDELL: ὄλλυμι from Root !ολ
A Act. = Lat. perdo,
1. to destroy, make an end of , Hom., Trag.:—also of doing away with evil, ὤλεσεν νόσον Aesch. II to lose , θυμόν, ψυχήν, μένος, ἦτορ ὀλέσαι to lose life, Hom.; Mid., = Lat. pereo,
1. to perish, come to an end , Hom.; also c. acc. cogn., κακὸν οἶτον, κακὸν μόρον ὀλέσθαι to die by an evil death, Il.:— ὄλοιο, ὄλοισθε mayʼst thou, may ye, perish! an imprecation,
2. to be ruined, undone , Hom., Hom. III perf. ὄλωλα, in sense of Mid., to have perished, to be undone, ruined , Il., Aesch., etc.; τῶν ὀλωλότων of the dead , Aesch.
Mar 12:9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy <G622 ὄλλυμι> the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.
ἀπόλλυμι, ἀπόλλῡμι, ἀπολῶ, ἀπώλεσα (trans) or ἀπωλόμην (intrans), ἀπολώλεκα (trans) or ἀπόλωλα (intrans)ς ΧΧΧ, ΧΧΧ, kill, (mid. and intrans.) die, cease to exist
LSJ: Prep. postponed in Od.9.534 :—stronger form of ὄλλυμι, destroy utterly, kill, in Hom. mostly of death in battle, ἀπώλεσε λαὸν Ἀχαιῶν 11.5.758 , al.;
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
THAYER: 1) to destroy 1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless 1c) to kill 1d) to declare that one must be put to death
MIDDLELIDDELL: ἀπόλλυμι 1. to destroy utterly, kill, slay , and of things, to destroy, demolish, waste
LOUW-NIDA: a. destroy
STRONG G622 ὄλλυμι ἀπόλλυμι ἀπολέσει From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully
2Co 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that ἀπόλλυμι:
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are ἀπόλλυμι:
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that ἀπόλλυμι; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
This selective, out-of-context copy/paste has been addressed and refuted several times before. ἀπόλλυμι/Appolumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 71 times, 83%, cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.
(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’, (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].
ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).
1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; [kill] the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28 ; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26, 3 ( cf. Sir 20:22 ).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ [die] of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. o[fewn killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12
. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son [who has returned]Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.
BAG Lexicon online
Genesis 6:13
And Elohiym is saying to Noah end of All Flesh come before Me, that she is full the land wrong/violence from presences of them and behold Me! ruining/07843 shachath them the land.
If the wages of sin is eternal torment, the only way that Jesus could take our place and pay our debt for sin is that HE BE eternally tormented. Period.
You cannot have your cake and eat it too! It is either eternal life or the eternal punishment of DEATH.Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:These verses in every case satisfy Rom 6:23. But what these verses don't say is, "The wages of sin is death, resurrection, judgment then a second death."After that inevitable death, when mankind faces that judgment Jesus will say to some "these go away into everlasting punishment." Jesus did not say death. We don't use the writings of the apostles to twist Jesus' words and make them mean something else.
Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.And since all men have sinned, all 100%, of mankind will face the judgment.
I tend to agree.You cannot have your cake and eat it too! It is either eternal life or the eternal punishment of DEATH.
Mat 25:46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Bumped to the top in response to yet an other Hell:no! thread.
This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: "Is Hell Really Eternal?"
His Description of the Horrors of Hell
They were still somewhere on the surface of the Earth; but no living person or beings of light could be seen. Before them was a plain jammed with hordes of spirits who are the most miserable and angriest beings he has ever seen. Many were engaged in hand-to-hand combat with no weapons - trying in vain to hurt and kill those who didn't agree with them. A lot of verbal abuse could be heard between them as their thoughts could be heard by everyone around them the moment they are thought. Ritchie is horrified as he wonders what living in such a realm would be like - a place where you cannot hide from who you really are. These spirits were locked into destructive thought-patterns, rage and uncontrollable lust. Some were trying in vain to get sexual gratification from each other. The wailing coming from the hordes of unsatisfied spirits was tremendous. Other spirits were in despair saying things such as, "I always knew!" and "Didn't I warn you!" Ritchie realizes this place is truly hell. Their obsessive thoughts and emotions extended beyond the physical realm and into the spiritual realm where they cannot be satisfied. Yet there was nothing preventing any of the poor spirits in these realms from leaving. There was no condemnation coming from Jesus either - only compassion for these miserable spirits. Ritchie realizes Jesus hadn't abandoned any of them here. Instead they fled from the light to escape from having the darkness of their heart from being revealed.
Heman and Deralter locked in an eternal argument:
Barbossa: So what now, Jack Sparrow? Are we to be two immortals locked in an epic battle until Judgment Day and trumpets sound?
Jack Sparrow: Or you could surrender.
I tend to agree.
1 Jo 5 mentions a sin that leads to death.
I would say this death is speaking of the 2nd death as mentioned in Revelation, as everyone dies once, whether they comitted this particular sin or not. IMHO.
1Jo 5:16
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death.
There is sin leading to death.
I do not say that he should pray about that.
So if God wants to make "eternal punishment" mean eternity in the lake o fire He can make it happen.
But 1 Jo 5:16 does not say "second death" and there is no verse in the entire NT which describes a second death. People and beings are thrown into the lake of fire but the scripture never says "then they die."
Counter argument: "But people in a lake of fire will be burned to a crisp." and in Daniel king Nebuchadnezzar threw three Hebrew slaves into a furnace seven times hpotter than normal but they were not burned to a crisp. They were not harmed at all.
Psa 31:18 Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous.Not necessarily, Moses saw a bush burning but it was not consumed So if God wants to make "eternal punishment" mean eternity in the lake o fire He can make it happen
So the question, then, is: Does God want to?
Let me rephrase, the unrighteous can be kept consciously aware in the lake of fire if God chooses to. The Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed that God did choose to. The ECF also believed so. And there is ample scriptural evidence that it is so. Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6. Rev 14:10-11; 19:20; 20:10, 14, 15; 21:8
Do you believe that God did choose to?
Repeating the same the same verses over and over does not change what they say.Let me rephrase, the unrighteous can be kept consciously aware in the lake of fire if God chooses to. The Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed that God did choose to. The ECF also believed so. And there is ample scriptural evidence that it is so. Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6. Rev 14:10-11; 19:20; 20:10, 14, 15; 21:8
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