Is Hell Real?

Your Brother In Christ said:

So, you will not physically die, well I highly recommend against testing your theory.

He's referring to the second death which is exactly what I stated in the reply you're replying to.

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I know, you are more apt to run from hell than to run to life....but you should give it a second thought.....as both paths lead to different destinations.

You take verses about Death and hell literally without any changes.....but verses about life eternal, you have to change to mean something else.

Your Brother In Christ said:

I have heard that many Christians do not believe that hell is real. I found this to be absurd, but I am open to hearing both sides of the argument. So that is what has lead me to proposing this question, is Hell real?
If it is or is not please explain.

P.S. I for one do believe it exist. Sorry for the pun in the poll but is just too much for me to resist.

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I think it was a bit hard to answer the poll because it depends on what you mean by hell. I voted "maybe", because I am not sure I believe in a fire where people will be tormented forever. I do believe there is "some kind" of hell, I don't know how, or what hell really means. I'm not even sure if hell is annhilation or some kind of conscious suffering. The Bible talks about the outer darkness, being separated from God must surely be hell, since all good comes from God.

LastSeven said:

I agree with almost everything you said and I appreciate that you've actually researched the original language which most readers do not. However, I don't understand where you get this from:

So from a perspective, sheol/hades/hell, always refer to the same place. That temporary holding place for both the saints and the unsaved. The dead "saints" are in "Abrahams Bosom" while the unsaved reside in "hades".

I've crossed out the parts I don't agree with. I've crossed out "hell" because you know as well as I do that the modern definition of hell is nowhere near the actual definition for either sheol or hades, so why you would lump it in with those two words makes no sense to me.

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"Ἅιδης (Haidēs, 86), ᾅδης, -ου, ὁ, (for the older Ἀΐδης, which Hom. uses, and this fr. α priv. and ἰδεῖν, not to be seen, [cf. Lob. Path. Element. ii. 6 sq.]); in the classics

1. a prop. name, Hades, Pluto, the god of the lower regions; so in Hom. always.

2. an appellative, Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead [cf. Theocr. idyll. 2, 159 schol. τὴν τοῦ ᾅδου κρούει πύλην τοῦτ’ ἔστιν ἀποθανεῖται]. In the Sept. the Hebr. שְׁאוֹל is almost always rendered by this word (once by θάνατος, 2 S. xxii. 6); it denotes, therefore, in bibl. Grk. Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark (Job x. 21) and dismal place (but cf. γέεννα and παράδεισος) in the very depths of the earth (Job xi. 8; Is. lvii. 9; Am. ix. 2, etc; see ἄβυσσος), the common receptacle of disembodied spirits: Lk. xvi. 23; εἰς ᾅδου sc. δόμον, Acts ii. 27, 31, acc. to a very common ellipsis, cf. W. 592 (550) [B. 171 (149)]; (but L Τ Tr WH in vs. 27 and Τ WH in both verses read εἰς ᾅδην; so Sept. Ps. xv. (xvi.) 10); πύλαι ᾅδου, Mt. xvi. 18 (πυλωροὶ ᾅδου, Job xxxviii. 17; see πύλη); κλεῖς τοῦ ᾅδου, Rev. i. 18; Hades as a power is personified, 1 Co. xv. 55 (where L Τ Tr WH read θάνατε for R G ᾅδη [cf. Acts ii. 24 Tr mrg.]); Rev. vi. 8; xx. 13 sq. Metaph. ἕως ᾅδου [καταβαίνειν or] καταβιβάζεσθαι to [go or] be thrust down into the depth of misery and disgrace: Mt. xi. 23 [here L Tr WH καταβαίνειν]; Lk. x. 15 [here Tr mrg. WH txt. καταβαίνειν]. [See esp. Boettcher, De Inferis, s. v. Ἅιδης in Grk. index. On the existence and locality of Hades cf. Greswell on the Parables, App. ch. x. vol. v. pt. ii. pp. 261-406; on the doctrinal significance of the word see the BB. DD. and E. R. Craven in Lange on Rev. pp. 364-377.]"

Thayer, Joseph Henry. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, being Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti, translated, revised, and enlarged. Corrected edition. New York: American Book Company, 1889.

Sheol was rendered as "hades" in the Old testament since there was no suitable word in the Greek in the New Testament. "Hades" is another one of those archaic words, no longer used. In modern "English" its now used synonymously with "hell". (For example, the third person of the Trinity is called "Holy Ghost" even though, the Holy Spirit is not a ghost as it used in the Greek. Pneuma and phastasma are entirely two different words with different meanings.)

LastSeven said:

Also, in your second sentence you rightly say that both the righteous and the unrighteous go to the same place upon death (although I might take issue with your "temporary holding place" as that implies a place where dead people are conscious, but that's a different discussion) but then I crossed out your last sentence because here you split the righteous from the unrighteous claiming that they don't go to the same place, contradicting your previous sentence.

So which do you believe? Do we all go to the same place upon death, or don't we?

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Here is an excerpt from a research paper I did in seminary:

"But before any more is said on this, we must come to an understanding on what is and what isn’t hell. Hell, that place the wicked dead go to be punished until the day of judgment, is not to be confused with the lake of fire. The Hades that Jesus taught of in Luke 16:19-31, and the lake of fire that awaits the unbeliever after the great judgment day, are two different places, with two different types of punishment. In the passage of scripture where Jesus teaches us about Hades, when the rich man wakes up, we can see five things right off the bat about this place:

a.There will be torments in this place. (Lk. 16:23)
b.They will be in torments because of flames. (Lk. 16:23)
c.There will be an unquenchable thirst. (Lk. 16:24)
d.There will be no escape from this place. (Lk. 16:26)
e.They will be awake, alive, and have feeling. (Lk. 16:23-24)"

Speaking of Hell, posted in the Baptist area, 12/8/2010

Parable is defined as: "a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle"

Source

There are some on this forum, that say you can't teach "doctrines" based on "parables". But based on the definition above, yes its is a "story", but it relates a spiritual truth. So I believe that what is said in Lk. 16: 19-31 is truthful.

If we take Jesus' words used in the Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, we see "Abraham's Bosom. It has two "sides". One side shows Lazarus being comforted, resting in Abraham, while the rich man is in the "lower" part, or sheol/hades/hell.

We also learn there is "great gulf" fixed, between the two places. This is an example of what we see about "Abraham's Bosom:



Even if it was possible for Abraham to have mercy, Lazarus couldn't help him.

"And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." -Lk. 16:26 (KJV)

It is only a temporary place, as at the Great White throne judgment, it is "emptied" and itself, is thrown into the lake of fire:

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." -Rev. 20:14 (KJV)

Today, there is a lot of mixed teachings about "hell" where some people "mix" what is said about the Lake of Fire with what we know about hell.

If you die, not knowing the Savior, you destiny is the same place as the Rich man. And you will stay there, until the Great White Throne judgment, where your eternal destiny lies in an even worse place.

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean said:

In modern "English" its [Hades] now used synonymously with "hell".

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But it shouldn't be. The modern understanding of hell is nowhere close to the actual meaning of Hades. Hades is the unseen place, the grave, the realm of the dead (all the dead, both wicked and righteous). Hell is a fiery place of eternal torture for the wicked.

DeaconDean said:

Today, there is a lot of mixed teachings about "hell" where some people "mix" what is said about the Lake of Fire with what we know about hell.

If you die, not knowing the Savior, you destiny is the same place as the Rich man. And you will stay there, until the Great White Throne judgment, where your eternal destiny lies in an even worse place.

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Yes, there is a lot of mixed teaching about hell, but you are also mixing teaching about hades. Notice that hades is the place for all the dead, not only the wicked.

86 hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.

So given that everybody knows hell is only for the wicked, you can not use it interchangeably with hades. They are two very different things.

Your Brother In Christ said:

Go a head and hide behind the "sheol" explanation it changes nothing in reality. The bible teaches about hell, if there is no hell then, it realy defeats and invalidates Jesus's sacrifice on the cross.

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Would you post please your strongest biblical evidence of a place of eternal torture where the wicked go upon death, the place you call hell.

Invalidusername said:

No need for repentance then.

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On the contrary.

Rev 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Without repentance you suffer the second death. What exactly that means we can't be sure, but it doesn't sound good.

LastSeven said:

But it shouldn't be. The modern understanding of hell is nowhere close to the actual meaning of Hades. Hades is the unseen place, the grave, the realm of the dead (all the dead, both wicked and righteous). Hell is a fiery place of eternal torture for the wicked.

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You are right. In the first century, the place where everybody went was/is one place with two or three distinct areas.

Abraham's bosom where the saved are comforted; i.e.: the example of Lazarus; and hell, the abode of the dead who are not saved, i.e.: the rich man. And an area that separates the two, i.e.: the gulf.

Now we can split hairs on "the unseen place" and exactly what that means, but I tend towards the side of it being "unseen" to us. And unless your one of those who have supposedly died, seen hell, and been allowed to return, it is still "unseen".

And again, if you want to split hairs:

"adhs" (86) the invisible abode or mansion of the dead; the place of punishment, hell, the lowest place or condition, Mt. 11:23; Lk. 10:15

The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, Wesley J. Perschbacher, Hendrickson Pub., Peabody, Mass. 01962, Copyright 1990, "adhs", p. 6

Etymology of Hell:

"also Hell, Old English hel, helle, "nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions, place of torment for the wicked after death," from Proto-Germanic *haljō "the underworld" (source also of Old Frisian helle, Old Saxon hellia, Dutch hel, Old Norse hel, German Hölle, Gothic halja "hell"). Literally "concealed place" (compare Old Norse hellir "cave, cavern"), from PIE root *kel-(1) "to cover, conceal, save."

The English word may be in part from Old Norse mythological Hel (from Proto-Germanic *halija "one who covers up or hides something"), in Norse mythology the name of Loki's daughter who rules over the evil dead in Niflheim, the lowest of all worlds (nifl "mist"). A pagan concept and word fitted to a Christian idiom. In Middle English, also of the Limbus Patrum, place where the Patriarchs, Prophets, etc. awaited the Atonement. Used in the KJV for Old Testament Hebrew Sheol and New Testament Greek Hades, Gehenna. Used figuratively for "state of misery, any bad experience" at least since late 14c. As an expression of disgust, etc., first recorded 1670s."

Source

So was I incorrect in saying hades and hell are synonymous? No.

God Bless

Till all are one.

As human beings we are bounded in both time and place. That is to say, we are finite. On the other hand we think of God as completely unbounded. God exists outside of both time and space. God is present everywhere and at all times. That is to say, God is infinite. This is the orthodox theistic understanding of God. To compare the finite to the infinite is beyond our human comprehension. Even to compare a grain of sand to Mount Everest falls far, far, far short. All of this brings up a number of questions in my mind.


The first question being “How is it even possible for a finite creature to offend an infinite God?” Could a grain of sand offend Mount Everest?


The second question being “Even if it were possible for the finite to offend the infinite, would the infinite punishment of a finite creature be just?” I will attempt to craft an analogy. You are in a park enjoying a picnic lunch when you glance down and notice an ant crawling across your sandwich. You are offended. How do you react? You have a number of options. You could ignore the ant. You could brush the ant away. You could move to a different location. You could kill the ant. You could kill the entire ant colony. You could capture the ant and confine it and proceed to torture it for several weeks until it finally dies. That last option is quite inadequate as a comparison to hell because hell is infinite in duration whereas the ant can only be tortured for a finite length of time.


To me the concept of hell flies in the face of any concept of a just and compassionate God. Hell would seem to be an entirely human invention based on a vindictive concept of retributory justice. Perhaps we have the wrong idea of hell. Perhaps we have the wrong idea of justice. Perhaps we have the wrong idea of God. I completely reject the concept of hell as it is traditionally understood in most Christian churches.

DeaconDean said:

You are right. In the first century, the place where everybody went was/is one place with two or three distinct areas.

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Where do you get this from?

DeaconDean said:

So was I incorrect in saying hades and hell are synonymous? No.

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You know very well what the word hell means today, and it is not the same thing as hades. So to say that hell and hades are synonymous is misleading at best.

JackRT said:

You could capture the ant and confine it and proceed to torture it for several weeks until it finally dies. That last option is quite inadequate as a comparison to hell because hell is infinite in duration whereas the ant can only be tortured for a finite length of time.

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And yet that last option seems entirely unjust.

Of course most Christians will reply with "God decides what is just and unjust", but regardless if the evidence for a place of eternal torment is not in scripture, then it doesn't exist.

Of course hell is real. It may be unpopular in our age. Some people and groups, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, Armstrongnites, Seventh Day Adventists, Unitarian Universalists, atheists, and humanists either try to water down the reality of hell or deny it completely.
To tell you the truth, eternal conscious torment scares me a lot more than just being wiped out of existence, a la Thanos annihilating certain characters in Infinity Wars. We can't even bear the pain of hell for one millisecond, imagine billions upon billions of years. People will wish that hell will stop because if it ever did, it will give people hope for relief. But in hell, there is absolutely no hope.
Others joke and mock about the reality of hell, like Ron Reagan, son of Former Pres. Ronald Reagan. As you can see, he thinks that hell is a game. There are some people who really think that there is going to be a party bash in hell.
If Ron Reagan is really not afraid of burning in hell, then he why doesn't he get a little taste of the Biblical hell by turning on a Bunsen burner, like the one in my Chemistry Class lab, and dare try putting his fingers over the flame?
And the burn from the Bunsen burner or stove is nothing and painless compared to the flames of hell. The Bible is clear that the torture of hell will never ever end (Matthew 25:41; Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Revelation 14:10-1; Revelation 20:15). If you look up these verses, hell definitely does not look like a party bash to me.

SaintCody777 said:

Of course hell is real. It may be unpopular in our age. Some people and groups, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, Armstrongnites, Seventh Day Adventists, Unitarian Universalists, atheists, and humanists either try to water down the reality of hell or deny it completely.
To tell you the truth, eternal conscious torment scares me a lot more than just being wiped out of existence, a la Thanos annihilating certain characters in Infinity Wars. We can't even bear the pain of hell for one millisecond, imagine billions upon billions of years. People will wish that hell will stop because if it ever did, it will give people hope for relief. But in hell, there is absolutely no hope.
Others joke and mock about the reality of hell, like Ron Reagan, son of Former Pres. Ronald Reagan. As you can see, he thinks that hell is a game. There are some people who really think that there is going to be a party bash in hell.
If Ron Reagan is really not afraid of burning in hell, then he why doesn't he get a little taste of the Biblical hell by turning on a Bunsen burner, like the one in my Chemistry Class lab, and dare try putting his fingers over the flame?
And the burn from the Bunsen burner or stove is nothing and painless compared to the flames of hell. The Bible is clear that the torture of hell will never ever end (Matthew 25:41; Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Revelation 14:10-1; Revelation 20:15). If you look up these verses, hell definitely does not look like a party bash to me.

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How do you deal with the fact that friends and maybe family will end up in such a place? Isn't it hard thinking like that?

Hell to me is separation from God ... Heaven is beginning here by knowing God and hell begins here by denying God.

I guess the degree at which one fears hell, would be to the degree that one really doesn't want to stay and be a part of this fallen world/reality/existence forever... And knowing the existence to come and how much better it is, makes this desire to not want to be, and certainly not stay here, certainly not forever, much stronger indeed...

This world is hell to me, but luckily, God has kept me and put me in a position to where I am protected and shielded from a lot of it, much of the time now, and am separate from it, so I'm not standing in the flames much of the time, like most people are...

God Bless!

/nvm

/nvm