Is Hell just?

karisma · May 24, 2006

So I have been pondering this one for awhile. Everyone says how God is a just God.

How can a just God send a good person who doesn't believe to hell to suffer for eternity? A finite crime leads to infinite punishment and suffering? Is that really just?

heron · May 24, 2006

heh heh, no one is answering this. Okay, it has only been a minute.

There are really so many things we know so little about. For us to describe Hell, would be conjecture.

heron · May 24, 2006

I saw a post here once linking to an article on a near-death experience. The person had committed suicide (not successfully) and found herself in a grey room with a lot of passive people, murmering to themselves...seeming to have walked there for years in despair.

I've also heard interviews with people who had near-deaths that brought them to a fiery place.

Whether these are in the mind or real places, we won't know.

We also don't know if there are last-chance options, or subtleties beyond our control...but God knows our hearts. His intent was always to offer ways out of suffering.

.

intricatic · May 24, 2006

I would first consider the nature of Hell. So many different interpretations exist on this subject that one must consider all the different angles and find the one that best suits scripture and the nature of God, Himself.

Personally, I think that Hell isn't a punishment so much as a decision people make consciously throughout their lives. When you embrace your own power to live the way you want to live, you're also embracing the power to reject God's will, and in essence, rejecting the gift of Heaven. You're embracing the only other alternative, which is a dissonance from God's presence. That dissonance eventually leads to absolute separation, which is a testament to free-will.

What that absolute separation is defined as in reality is something I can't even begin to think I'm capable of explaining. All I can say is that in any given situation, an individual has only two decisions, and Hell is the eternal end of one of them.

LilLamb219 · May 24, 2006

So I have been pondering this one for awhile. Everyone says how God is a just God.

How can a just God send a good person who doesn't believe to hell to suffer for eternity? A finite crime leads to infinite punishment and suffering? Is that really just?

You don't think we deserve hell, do you?

We all deserve hell because we miss God's mark of holiness. We cannot make ourselves Holy at all; only God can do that. People reject Him though and so they are the ones who will go to Hell. How can that not be just?

red77 · May 24, 2006

LilLamb219 said:
You don't think we deserve hell, do you?

We all deserve hell because we miss God's mark of holiness. We cannot make ourselves Holy at all; only God can do that. People reject Him though and so they are the ones who will go to Hell. How can that not be just?

because life isnt black and white, being tormented for an eternity for missing the 'mark' doesnt take into account peoples lives/upbringing their experiences etc.......God is so much bigger than an angry wrathful deity who tortures his creations........honestly.....how can it make sense........?

LilLamb219 · May 24, 2006

how can it make sense........?

Do YOU have the mind of God to know all and judge all?

chevelledc788 · May 24, 2006

Well, first of all I am a Seventh-day Adventist so I don't believe in everlasting torment in Hell. What I mean by this is that I don't believe someone will conciously be experiencing pain and agony in hellfire for the rest of eternity. The Bible does say hell is eternal but if you research this and go back to the original lanuages, Hebrew and Greek, the word from which we translated "eternal" doesn't always literally mean never ending but permanent. As in people won't forever be suffering but once they are burned in hell and there is nothing left to be burnt that is it. The end. They will never again live or anything, thus it is eternal in a sense because they cease to exist for eternity.

Now, I do see hell as being just because God's plan is to return to earth and take back those who love him. Now if someone didn't love God and all their life had chosen to stay away from them, how happy would that person be in heaven, spending the rest of eternity with someone they didn't even like to begin with. I think that's why hell exists. People simply wouldn't be happy in heaven and God knows this so he doesn't try to force them to be there. They made their choice not to be there and so they are sent to hell instead.

And like I said, I don't believe people will be tortured and suffer pain forever in Hell. Hell isn't so much a place as it is a time. When Jesus returns after the 1000 years with the righteous and the New Jerusalem and the wicked are resurrected and then cast into the lake of fire. That lake of fire is hell. But we know it won't literally last forever because that lake of fire is here on this earth which is also where the New Jerusalem and the new earth will be and I'm sure God doesn't want his new world and city without sin to overlook a lake of fire full of burning sinners for the rest of eternity. So I believe that once someone is burned up they are burned up and they cease to ever exist again.

red77 · May 24, 2006

LilLamb219 said:
Do YOU have the mind of God to know all and judge all?

?? No...................Do you........?

MidnightCandel777 · May 24, 2006

Well, hell was originally ment for satan and his angles. But Humanity joined in with his rebellion when the first sin was commited.

You use the term "good people". the bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The bible also says if you break one commandment, then you break them all. How, then, can ANYONE get to heaven if we are all guilty?

Jesus was the perfect person. He never commited any sin in his entire life. (this is because He is the Son of God) The bible says there is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood. And a sarcrifice had to be perfect So you know God did?

He took His only son and had him beat, briused, whipped, and crucified so that no one no longer had to go to hell. He paid the price for all of us. The only thing needed to get to heaven is to accept that free gift. That's it. God gives us a choice. Now it's up to us if we accept it...

LilLamb219 · May 24, 2006

?? No...................Do you........?

Certainly not, that is why I go to scriptures to believe in what God tells us through His Word and hell is one of the things in there.

red77 · May 24, 2006

LilLamb219 said:
Certainly not, that is why I go to scriptures to believe in what God tells us through His Word and hell is one of the things in there.

yep, hell is there but it doesnt say that its eternal........and the nature of hell is so inconsistent among those who believe it to be eternal from what I've seen on this forum...........which is why i question and use the gift of reason given to me to question a doctrine that depicts a deity who would torture and torment his creations...........
Apart from anything else after debating this with some others 'hell' is shot into the lake of fire along with death.......so it can hardly be eternal..........and with the metaphor used in revelation it seems unlikely that the lake of fire is a literal place......after all, how can u throw 'death' in to somewhere? its not something that u can pick up so there's a lot of metaphor going on........I question the literal views on this because they make no sense............

Angelwarrioress · May 24, 2006

intricatic said:
I would first consider the nature of Hell. So many different interpretations exist on this subject that one must consider all the different angles and find the one that best suits scripture and the nature of God, Himself.

Personally, I think that Hell isn't a punishment so much as a decision people make consciously throughout their lives. When you embrace your own power to live the way you want to live, you're also embracing the power to reject God's will, and in essence, rejecting the gift of Heaven. You're embracing the only other alternative, which is a dissonance from God's presence. That dissonance eventually leads to absolute separation, which is a testament to free-will.

What that absolute separation is defined as in reality is something I can't even begin to think I'm capable of explaining. All I can say is that in any given situation, an individual has only two decisions, and Hell is the eternal end of one of them.

Inticatic, took my words lol, I was going to say the same thing!!!

karisma · May 24, 2006

MidnightCandel777 said:
You use the term "good people". the bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The bible also says if you break one commandment, then you break them all. How, then, can ANYONE get to heaven if we are all guilty?

Yeah I did use the term "good people." I think that most people are basically good, most of the time. Christianity seems to focus so much on the negatives, like sinning. Of course we all have our shortcomings-we aren't perfect. But does that mean we should all be eternally punished? No! I don't think we deserve hell. Look at all the good things people do for one another. Of course this is hard sometimes since the media likes to sensationalize and focus only on killing sprees, rapes, etc.

I just find it hard to believe that it is "just" for a person to be cast into hell, not for disliking God, but rather for a disbelief in God because of a lack of evidence of His existence. You can quote the Bible all you want but it the end it is just a book, which is hardly solid evidence.

If I had a child who grew up and decided she didn't like me for whatever reason, I would be sad but I certainly wouldn't hope her to be sent to a super max prison and then suffer a torturous, grisly death!

heron · May 24, 2006

Christianity seems to focus so much on the negatives, like sinning.

That really depends on the church. I think that the sinning part is emphasized more in media than in contemporary churches. It was heavily preached in other eras.

heron · May 24, 2006

chevelle, it's interesting that you say the lake of fire is temporary, because Revelations 21 says it's the second death...which would imply an end.

Re 21:8 - [ In Context | Read Chapter | http://studylight.org/forums/posting.php?mode=newtopic&f=12&subject=Revelation+21:8[ Original: Greek | Multi-Translation |

But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

(o qanatov o deuterov --click Greek links for definitions)

intricatic · May 24, 2006

red77 said:
because life isnt black and white, being tormented for an eternity for missing the 'mark' doesnt take into account peoples lives/upbringing their experiences etc.......God is so much bigger than an angry wrathful deity who tortures his creations........honestly.....how can it make sense........?

What if it's not an eternity of torture, but an eternity of life as it exists now? Would that be any more just?

red77 · May 25, 2006

intricatic said:
What if it's not an eternity of torture, but an eternity of life as it exists now? Would that be any more just?

that would be pretty unbearable as well to be honest.....I think what a lot of Christians do who believe this eternal damnation stuff fail to realise is that there's such a degree of suffering in this life as it is.........and i honestly dont think that many have seen first hand a person or an animal suffering to an extreme degree, neither have I to be honest although i once saw a dog in its death throes after being hit by a car, mercifully it was brief, to think that God would torture his beings mercilessly in any shape or form for an eternity is just hideous, only men in their warped imaginations have conceived this doctrine......it doesnt say anywhere in the bible that hell is an eternal place of torture but take a few verses, add a bit of spin to them and hey presto....! The ultimate torture chamber suddenly exists..........never mind the inconsistency of the views expressed by people who support this vile dogma where u cant normally get two people to agree on just exactly what 'hell' is........

Fortunately I just remind myself that God is above dogma and doctrine, he's the ultimate loving father whose ways are beyond our understanding, despite the doctrines of men who seem to claim otherwise.........

heron · May 25, 2006

..it doesnt say anywhere in the bible that hell is an eternal place of torture but take a few verses, add a bit of spin to them and hey presto....! The ultimate torture chamber suddenly exists..........

I wonder if the interpretation changed during times when the state was so involved with the church....the Inquisition, indulgences...wouldn't that fit well to control the masses.

Mt 18:8, Mt 25:41and Jude 1:7 say the fire is eternal, but not the existence in it.

Mt 25:46
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Punishment here seems to be the act of correction/penalty, and might pertain more to the decision than the length of the event.

Joh 12:25
He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.

Implies a difference in length of soul survival.

Romans 2:7
To those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory , honor and immortality, eternal life.

Romans 6:22
But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1Jo 3:15
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

(Corruption as in decay, perishability)

This verse sounds the closest to the traditional Hell:

2Thess 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power

All these negative verses are not showing the balance very well, so I'll throw this in:

2 Peter 1:11
For in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

1Peter 5:10
After you have suffered for a little while [earthly life], the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

MidnightCandel777 · May 25, 2006

karisma said:
Yeah I did use the term "good people." I think that most people are basically good, most of the time. Christianity seems to focus so much on the negatives, like sinning. Of course we all have our shortcomings-we aren't perfect. But does that mean we should all be eternally punished? No! I don't think we deserve hell. Look at all the good things people do for one another. Of course this is hard sometimes since the media likes to sensationalize and focus only on killing sprees, rapes, etc.

I just find it hard to believe that it is "just" for a person to be cast into hell, not for disliking God, but rather for a disbelief in God because of a lack of evidence of His existence. You can quote the Bible all you want but it the end it is just a book, which is hardly solid evidence.

If I had a child who grew up and decided she didn't like me for whatever reason, I would be sad but I certainly wouldn't hope her to be sent to a super max prison and then suffer a torturous, grisly death!

Yes, it does sound unjust that you would send your own child to torture.

However, what about punishment for someone who is completely innocent. That's not Justice. But that's what happened.

Jesus didn't deserve to be beat or whipped or bruised or punished. He was the only one who could accomplish what we couldn't: Never doing anything wrong against God.

God didn't have to do that. He could have left us to die and go to hell. But He gave us a choice.

I feel as though I am coming on a bit strong, and I know that I could quote scripture to you all day. But the thing is that God loved us so much that He did something about it. That means more to me.

I just wanted you to understand that Jesus took the whole brunt of the beating for all of us. He took the bullet. He didn't gain anything by it, either.

We, as humans classify sin as "big" or "little". But in reality, there is no level of sin. We break one law, we break them all.

But God knew He would hve to send the ultimate sacrifice, and now we have a choice.

God be with you, man.

Peace.

Is Hell just?

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