Is Harry Potter Evil? (2)

[Ave Maria]

This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: "Is Harry Potter Evil?"

 

[JWNEWMAN]

Scripture says that the whole world will be under the effects of sorcery. Drugged, deluded, etc., the very elect of God would fall under this same delusion were it possible. You give yourself, people and especially children to much credit. There is only one way not to fall under said delusion and the way is Christ.

HP series exposes little kids to, torture, murder, astrology, spell casting, incantations, palm reading, crystal gazing, necromancy, all these have their real world parallels but somehow that's OK to expose our children to these things and to teach they are acceptable practices. The only practice above not shown as acceptable is murder.

 

[Dannager]

Scripture says that the whole world will be under the effects of sorcery. Drugged, deluded, etc., the very elect of God would fall under this same delusion were it possible. You give yourself, people and especially children to much credit. There is only one way not to fall under said delusion and the way is Christ.

Once again you reinforce the suspicion that your argument is not based on an actual examination of the situation but rather on a desire to validate your religious beliefs.

HP series exposes little kids to, torture, murder, astrology, spell casting, incantations, palm reading, crystal gazing, necromancy, all these have their real world parallels but somehow that's OK to expose our children to these things and to teach they are acceptable practices. The only practice above not shown as acceptable is murder.

And torture. And necromancy. And any other form of magic used for evil purposes. We're all a little tired of getting half-arguments from your camp, JWNEWMAN.

 

[Nadiine]

And torture. And necromancy. And any other form of magic used for evil purposes. We're all a little tired of getting half-arguments from your camp, JWNEWMAN.

No more than we're a little tired of the false arguments from your "camp".
Ya, it's fantasy.....

WE GET IT!
Too bad that isn't the argument we've made. (not to mention a few of the others that get rehashed repeatedly).

 

[Dannager]

No more than we're a little tired of the false arguments from your "camp".
Ya, it's fantasy.....

WE GET IT!
Too bad that isn't the argument we've made. (not to mention a few of the others that get rehashed repeatedly).

Okay, Nadiine. How about instead of constantly complaining about how that isn't your argument (even though it is an argument that others on your side have been using), you remind us what your argument is?

 

[flicka]

Too bad that isn't the argument we've made

It's EXACTLY the arguement being made. HP is fantasy...so if you want to claim it's evil you have to start by saying you think this kind of fantasy is evil, or that HP isn't fantasty at all. Those are the only two choices.

Now, if you want to say that real live witchcraft (which doesn't exist IMHO) is evil then that's fine. Find someone practicing real live witchcraft and yell at them, but you won't find it in HP.

If you want to claim that the fantasy stuff in HP leads to real life stuff that is your right, but that STILL doesn't make HP evil. And I don't happen to think it would anyway since whatever the real evil you fear looks like, it isn't represented in HP so at best you can say that someone might read HP (fantasy/not evil) and then decide to go on to other things. While that STILL doesn't make HP evil it only shows that people can and will think about doing all kinds of things. We can't stop people from having ideas no matter how many books we don't read and movies we don't watch. It doesn't work like that. ANYTHING can make someone think about exploring ideas they have, be they good ones or evil ones.

Besides, kids don't need HP or other books to think about magic and witchcraft....they think about it anyway because of their imaginations.

 

[Tissue]

Um, this is the same argument used before and it doesn't address our arguments or assertions to use OTHER movies as some support for HP.

I see no reason why I cannot use an analogy. They seem quite effective.

Also, the witch in Oz was wicked, not glamified and made appealing to kids to want to BE one.

Two of the witches were wicked. Two of them were good. That isn't the point I'm trying to make, though. The point I'm making is that the witches as presented in The Wizard of Oz have no bearing on actual witches and witchcraft in reality.

My reply to this is the same as it was before, each book, show, movie is a springboard for the next one to be more accepted.

Yes. That's called progress.

Billy Crystal's first gay character on "Soap" in the 70's was very controversial back then. But, it was the launching pad for more to follow... which later makes it acceptably normal in culture.

Homosexual people exist. They are human beings and should be loved just as any other human being, even if we do not agree with their lifestyle.

Now it's a normal lifestyle 20+ yrs later. Media helped play that part.

Same with witchcraft and other taboo's. It starts more innocently and slowly grows into what we see today. It's called desensitization folks.

Ironically, you use an analogy here, mere sentences after criticizing my use of an analogy.

The problem with your point is that it doesn't take into account the difference between witchcraft as shown in Harry Potter and witchcraft as it actually exists.

AND IT OBVIOUSLY WORKS. It's an effective method of getting things accepted over time. Like cussing on tv and sex scenes. Keep pushing that envelope.

Oh dear! Society, after all, isn't going by Scripture!

The Bible does not dictate what is "cussing" and what is not. Society does that. Therefore, I think society has every right to decide collectively what is allowable and what is not, in regards to cursing.

As regards sex, there are censor committees in place to make sure the fine line is tread carefully. While things might be slowly pushed towards the opposite spectrum, that is more of a sociological thing than a spiritual thing. If it bothers you that much, get rid of your TV. Nothing in Scripture says you need one of THOSE, right?

PLEASE DO NOT TELL ME I JUST READ THIS - AGAIN.

Nadiine, I find your attitude quite insulting. You act as if you've already disproved every single argument I've made so far. This, however, is not the case. You've made counter-arguments, but you have not disproved my assertions. Please respect me and my arguments, and I will continue to do the same for you.

inappropriate content is made into fictional cartoons... is that real? No. Is it good for kids? NO.

That's not at all what me or anyone else in this topic are arguing. We're talking about a specific instance: Harry Potter. You're speaking about fiction as an entire entity. I never once stated that fiction makes everything right.

If you actually read arguments correctly, you begin to understand why you're hearing the same arguments over and over. It isn't stubborn, immature Christians clinging to their position. It's Christians waiting for their position to actually be disproven, which so far, you haven't done.

The witchcraft in that was portrayed as evil. No one is arguing that there cannot be any villains in entertainment for kids. Again, comparing movies as if it gives another a pass doesn't make another OK.

Again, you completely miss the point. We were talking about Harry Potter as a potential allegory. I presented Narnia as a similar allegory. Then, suddenly, you start talking about witchcraft as portrayed in Narnia. That's a completely different issue between the two texts.

And this statement means YOU are in the dark. clearly.

I'm speechless.

Who said HP was the first step to satanism??? If you're going to make rebuttals, please make them accurate to the quote you use. I never said this.

Haha! The irony.

You've been talking about desensitization, which is a process. I simply stated that Harry Potter is not a part of that process. The term "Satanism" was thrown as a general reference to witchcraft; perhaps not entirely accurate, but certainly understandable enough that your reply was completely unwarranted.

I HAVE SAID THAT WITCHCRAFT'S SOURCE IS SATAN which is what the Bible teaches.

I'm not entirely sure what this has to do with anything.

Then prove that. I gave the quote, the source's name & position as per the article I found.

If you wouldn't mind, please repost the article. I'd like to see the parameters of the study/survey this organization you're referring to conducted.

So far, noone's proven much of anything on your side here except that you either don't listen to what we're asserting or you dont' grasp it.

Nadiine, I am listening to what you are asserting, and so far, you have not argued beyond my understanding.

I keep seeing the same rehashed mantra's of "it's fantasy"... as if that make's it all harmless.

The fact that it is a part of the fantasy genre does not make it harmless. The fact that it's specific content, of a completely non-realistic form of magic with no bearing on the witchcraft of the real world, is what makes it harmless. This distinction is subtle, and when you explosively generalize it by saying we're arguing all fantasy is ok, you're missing the point we're trying to make.

IT MAY BE HARMLESS TO AN ADULT, BUT KIDS ARE SEEING SOMETHING ELSE AND THEY BELIEVE IT AND WANT IT. Namely when KIDS are the witches in wizardry school now - they relate to it realistically.

They're imagining it. That's great. If they took a piece of wood and said the words in Harry Potter, nothing would happen. Why? Because it isn't real. Kids can understand this. If you are worried about your child getting too much into a book, it is up to the parent to sit down with their child and explain that it isn't real. Kids will listen, and they can understand. The issue isn't with them. It's with parents.

Sadly that keeps escaping people (or they don't want to believe it becuz it would make them have to admit that just MAYBE the book is leading kids to acceptance of the occult).

Nadiine, your point isn't escaping me. I just don't agree with it. That appears to largely be your problem here. You seem to think that, if someone disagrees with you, they either don't understand what you're saying, or they refuse to agree with you. In other words, everyone that doesn't agree with you is either ignorant, or closed-minded. That's highly offensive, and detrimental to the idea of open discussion.

More importantly, it's not exactly Christian love, now is it?

 

[Tissue]

Scripture says that the whole world will be under the effects of sorcery. Drugged, deluded, etc., the very elect of God would fall under this same delusion were it possible. You give yourself, people and especially children to much credit. There is only one way not to fall under said delusion and the is the way Christ.

You ignore the distinction that I and others attempt to make regarding Harry Potter and its relation to witchcraft. Namely, that it isn't the same.

HP series exposes little kids to, torture, murder, astrology, spell casting, incantations, palm reading, crystal gazing, necromancy, all these have their real world parallels but somehow that's OK to expose our children to these things and to teach they are acceptable practices. The only practice above not shown as acceptable is murder.

It's a book of fiction. If it were printed as a non-fiction book, then I could understand your qualms, but it is ultimately a book that does not realistically portray magic in the real world.

Harry Potter magic is incantational; that is, magic is derived from words and such. Real world magic (the dangerous stuff) is invocational; that is, magic is derived from possession by demonic forces. Nowhere in Harry Potter does anything remotely invocational arise. Nowhere in the real world does anything remotely incantational arise.

 

[Nadiine]

and they STILL DON'T GET IT.

I cannot believe people continue to use this same argument of 'fiction'....
I'm going to HOPE that you just didn't read any of our posts here before posting this same tired assertion. (which does NOT support anything).

 

[Dannager]

and they STILL DON'T GET IT.

I cannot believe people continue to use this same argument of 'fiction'....
I'm going to HOPE that you just didn't read any of our posts here before posting this same tired assertion. (which does NOT support anything).

Did you miss my post, Nadiine? The one where I suggested you remind us of what, exactly, your argument is instead of constantly complaining that we're not getting it?

 

[Nadiine]

It's EXACTLY the arguement being made. HP is fantasy...so if you want to claim it's evil you have to start by saying you think this kind of fantasy is evil, or that HP isn't fantasty at all. Those are the only two choices.

IT IS WHAT YOU UNDERSTAND IS BEING MADE. But if you understood our detailed assertions, you'de see it is NOT the argument flicka.
We've already AGREED that it's fiction. We've already agreed that it's NOT the fiction that makes it wrong or harmful!!!
Only in ONE small way does that argument "fit" part of our argument - and that's the glamorization angle. With that said, it is not the fake spells that I consider the glamorization of the series. The glamorization is in the characters being shown in good, positive lights and still being witches - NOT the cosmetics of the fancy spells.

The glamorization is in CHILDREN who have innate natural OCCULT gifts (which is a very real phenomena to have) - children who other children RELATE TO ON A CHILD'S LEVEL, who then go to a wizard's school to harness their occult powers to be used.

So again, you're wrong if you percieve our arguments to be about 'FICTION'... you've clearly not understood them if that's what you still think.
And to keep harping on that is just posting back & forth to yourself; it does no one any good - namely when I'D ALREADY AGREE THAT THEY'RE FICTIONAL CHARACTERS & SPELLS. But they ARE real children and spells are very real, witchcraft is a very real religion & spells & divination are done within witchcraft.
THOSE arent' fiction.

Now, if you want to say that real live witchcraft (which doesn't exist IMHO) is evil then that's fine. Find someone practicing real live witchcraft and yell at them, but you won't find it in HP.

again, you don't get it. If this book used Satanism instead of witchcraft, would you use the same defenses for it?

If you want to claim that the fantasy stuff in HP leads to real life stuff that is your right, but that STILL doesn't make HP evil.

NOPE, that's not what I've said - altho in kids minds, they DO often believe fantasy is REAL - or they can WANT it to be real.

We can't stop people from having ideas no matter how many books we don't read and movies we don't watch. It doesn't work like that. ANYTHING can make someone think about exploring ideas they have, be they good ones or evil ones.

Now this statement is something substantial to the issue. While it's very true that probably anything can make exploring into evil a reality, HP is a direct LURE to that in the themes & content used - and the positive light placed on those evil things.
Kids are actually writing letters to say "I don't want to be a muggle". (non witch). NOT being a 'witch' in their vulnerable minds is BAD. So how is this not directly promoting the will to NOT be a witch?
Whether it's their misperception or not, you have to look at their mindframe in wanting to embrace being a witch.

This is direct desinsitization to the stigma of witchcraft being taught as "evil". To THEM, it is not bad or evil, they embrace it. That is what they're forming positive relationships to and with by the movie's spin on it. (fake or not doesn't matter).
As they get older, witchcraft no longer looks "evil", but something acceptable becuz they grew up with the concepts thru the books.

So yes, HP draws a direct association with the positive light towards witches & witchcraft. Good luck trying to tell these kids later that it's "evil" becuz the God of the Bible says it's forbidden. Are they apt to accept that after being familiar w/ characters they loved as kids?

doubtful. But thank you for at least providing another angle to the subject instead of the other 'fiction'/'fantasy' ones.

Besides, kids don't need HP or other books to think about magic and witchcraft....they think about it anyway because of their imaginations.

True, but where do they get it if not from what parents give them?? Same with violence... it's a FACT that kids have killed other smaller kids after seeing violent TV shows (ie. one real case I saw was wrestling) - we've had 10-12 yr old boys rape and kill a little 5 yr old girl... where did they get that from??
Where do little girls learn to dance like strippers (I've seen that too!).
Kids follow suggestion & visuals & absorb it like sponges. They take in alot more than what we give them credit for.

Imho, the mistake adults are making is, they aren't thinking like KIDS THINK - they're more mature & can differentiate things & know how to process the information & visuals - kids don't! Kids live things out that they see & learn.
So they give their kids things that are harmful & sometimes don't realize it. (my opinion of course).

 

[Nadiine]

Did you miss my post, Nadiine? The one where I suggested you remind us of what, exactly, your argument is instead of constantly complaining that we're not getting it?

I HAVE,.... about 3 times now, PLUS I keep saying it within my posts.
But, you must not of read those either? I did yet Another one in my previous post again.

I asked that if you guys wanted to read what our issues were, that YOU do the work of going back to find it.
I'm not doing everybody's work here - we've already provided links & the sources for those are even denied.

But is has been explained over & over... JW's been explaining it too. People keep buzzing about fantasy instead (which we've already conceded the spells are FAKE)...
so....... whatever.

 

[Nadiine]

Since this is a new thread now, I went as far as backtracking to the general area where we were explaining our positions. My guestimation is that our assertions were a few pages before this page link.

But this is basically where this all was stated (pg 39ish)- and it's sprinkled thru other posts here & there in following posts.
http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=41197405&postcount=618


http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=41192965&postcount=600

 

[Tissue]

So you're just going to ignore my post, Nadiine?

 

[flicka]

Kids are actually writing letters to say "I don't want to be a muggle".

More than one kid wrote that and fundamentalist site got ahold of that letters? Ehh....I'm doubting this.

I'm not convinced it's happening or that it's a widespread thing since I live in and among the world of kids and never saw any inkling of anything remotely like what you claim is happening all over the place.

My one and only point is that HP isn't evil and it appears you agree. That was the question addressed in the OP. I have read most of, but will NOT be rereading, the over 100 pages of posts looking for whatever other issues are being argued about (the ones we apparently "don't get") because it appears they are more universal and not a direct result of HP.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

Once again you reinforce the suspicion that your argument is not based on an actual examination of the situation but rather on a desire to validate your religious beliefs.

And torture. And necromancy. And any other form of magic used for evil purposes. We're all a little tired of getting half-arguments from your camp, JWNEWMAN.

You've been after me for awhile cause I made you look bad. But I don't mind you still look bad supporting exposing little kids to the glamorization of torture (which HP encouraged the use of) palm reading, crystal gazing, necromancy, mind reading, trance induction, spell casting, incantations, etc.

 

[Nadiine]

More than one kid wrote that and fundamentalist site got ahold of that letters? Ehh....I'm doubting this.

I'm not convinced it's happening or that it's a widespread thing since I live in and among the world of kids and never saw any inkling of anything remotely like what you claim is happening all over the place.

well, believe what you want - the info's there & so are the sources. I also have God's information and I think that says plenty about this issue - I don't even need the secular sources to form my opinion.

My one and only point is that HP isn't evil and it appears you agree.

No, I think it TEACHES EVIL AS GOOD. So,... that would mean it is evil (namely for kids impressionable minds).
It promotes what God calls evil as a GOOD and acceptable theme. Fantasy in and of itself isn't evil - but what the fantasy is based on can be very evil.

The bottom line as I see this issue is that God forbids us to touch what is occult - if we're not to get near it, then why are [namely Christian] kids being fed materials that promote occult themes as "good" which is directly opposite of God's teaching on it?

I'm still curious to know your answer as to if you think HP would be ok for kids if it wasn't witchcraft in the book but Satanism instead? Would it be ok if the children went to a school of Satanism to refine their natural occult capabilities? & all the magick spells & everything else was all the same?
And why?

Whatever people want to decide on it is what they'll decide. But this movie paves the way for the NEXT movie that shows what God calls evil (ie. sorcery/ witches/ divination & whatever else) in a positive and accepting light. One leads to the next.

The main point is that the many Christians who find Harry Potter unsuitable for kids have a valid argument and reason for thinking so. It isn't just 'legalistic prudes' who find contradiction with it according to God's teachings.
At least now some of you hopefully see what their REAL issues are, & that it isn't the fake spells & fantasy that they're calling bad (or that they're claiming the spells are real sorcery).
& I personally believe some or maybe even alot of this issue rests in people's worldviews. People who are conservative tend to take God's word differently than liberalists. (probly much differently). So that has alot of bearing on this topic as well imo.

 

[JWNEWMAN]

You ignore the distinction that I and others attempt to make regarding Harry Potter and its relation to witchcraft. Namely, that it isn't the same.



It's a book of fiction. If it were printed as a non-fiction book, then I could understand your qualms, but it is ultimately a book that does not realistically portray magic in the real world.

Harry Potter magic is incantational; that is, magic is derived from words and such. Real world magic (the dangerous stuff) is invocational; that is, magic is derived from possession by demonic forces. Nowhere in Harry Potter does anything remotely invocational arise. Nowhere in the real world does anything remotely incantational arise.

It's utterly beyond reason your argument. In one part of the book Harry suggest giving someone over to the dementors who will torment the individual. Is that OK because dementors are not real creators?

Also, there are "dark sentences" which utterances have power. It was God's word that created the world. Words have power, by our words we are justified or condemned.

Aside from that the practices of spell casting, potions, incantations, crystal gazing, trance meditation, manipulation of mind/mind control, palm reading, etc., are all real world practices available to any child who reads the Potter books. Anyone who says a child who is a fan of Potter will not be enticed or tempted to try real thing isn't being even in part logical or using any thing close to reason.

 

[Floatingaxe]

HP desensitizes young minds (and those of misguided parents who allow HP) to the evil in the occult.

Small steps toward acceptance of such things breaks down the natural reticence to embrace those things that God clearly says we must not only not participate in, but FLEE! Parents who love God are derelict in their duty to their children in God by allowing such a dangerous compromise in their homes.

Satan isn't stupid. He has an agenda for each new generation. Desensitization is the tactic for our youngsters in this generation. It will set the stage for more and more inroads into these minds as they grow into adulthood.

I shudder to think of the children today and what they wil find themselves embracing as adults.

 

[Tissue]

well, believe what you want - the info's there & so are the sources. I also have God's information and I think that says plenty about this issue - I don't even need the secular sources to form my opinion.

You have probably sufficiently described the attitude of the Church during the Crusades.

No, I think it TEACHES EVIL AS GOOD. So,... that would mean it is evil (namely for kids impressionable minds).

And we're saying that your definition of evil as regards Harry Potter is wrong. We understand what you think about your definition.

It promotes what God calls evil as a GOOD and acceptable theme. Fantasy in and of itself isn't evil - but what the fantasy is based on can be very evil.

God calls real witchcraft evil. How can that extend to something that bears absolutely no resemblance to true witchcraft, and only shares with it the word itself, which is but an imposition of humans upon it to better understand it? Would this issue even arise if some other, abstract term were used to describe the magic system of Harry Potter?

The bottom line as I see this issue is that God forbids us to touch what is occult - if we're not to get near it, then why are [namely Christian] kids being fed materials that promote occult themes as "good" which is directly opposite of God's teaching on it?

Again, definitions. We say Harry Potter isn't occult. You say it is.

We (or, at least, I) actually agree with you regarding the true occult. We are to stay away from it entirely. However, having read the books, and having a fundamental understanding of what the occult actually is (without being a practitioner), I can safely conclude that there is nothing at all occultic about Harry Potter.

I'm still curious to know your answer as to if you think HP would be ok for kids if it wasn't witchcraft in the book but Satanism instead? Would it be ok if the children went to a school of Satanism to refine their natural occult capabilities? & all the magick spells & everything else was all the same?

And why?

Of course not. The fact that you have to do so much modification to pose that question, however, should be an indication that the stuff of Harry Potter is actually quite different than Satanism and witchcraft.

Whatever people want to decide on it is what they'll decide.

Not necessarily. Many Christians prefer to follow truth as best they can. It isn't about what we want, it's about what's true.

But this movie paves the way for the NEXT movie that shows what God calls evil (ie. sorcery/ witches/ divination & whatever else) in a positive and accepting light. One leads to the next.

I thought we were to review each movie separately. "taken by their own merits", I believe were your words? Could be wrong.

The main point is that the many Christians who find Harry Potter unsuitable for kids have a valid argument and reason for thinking so.

So you say. On the other end of the spectrum, I could state that WE have a valid argument and reason for thinking that Harry Potter is suitable for kids. But that wouldn't get us anywhere.

It isn't just 'legalistic prudes' who find contradiction with it according to God's teachings.

While I'm against stereotypes, I feel free to make one here: If there is one attribute that denotes every single person I've met that is against the Harry Potter books, it is that they have not read them themselves, and that all the information they have received from the books is derived from a second source.

At least now some of you hopefully see what their REAL issues are, & that it isn't the fake spells & fantasy that they're calling bad (or that they're claiming the spells are real sorcery).

You made no argument whatsoever to disprove that assertion. You just restated your opinion.