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is gravity faster than light?

Hespera

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I was wondering... gravity seems to work over immense distances, nobody knows how.

Suppose you could create something suddenly out of nowhere, maybe pop out of a worm hole or something.

How would gravity know you were there?

How fast would it find out?

Suppose you are out past Pluto somewhere, and suddenly popped into existence there. Would you feel the suns gravity immediately?

How long would it take?
 

AV1611VET

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How would gravity know you were there?
Gravity is embedded in the mass and is universal in its extent.

An electron on the edge of the universe exerts a gravitational pull on a giant star on the opposite edge of the universe.

There is no such a thing as "zero gravity" -- it is now called "microgravity".
 
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matthewgar

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I was wondering... gravity seems to work over immense distances, nobody knows how.

Suppose you could create something suddenly out of nowhere, maybe pop out of a worm hole or something.

How would gravity know you were there?

How fast would it find out?

Suppose you are out past Pluto somewhere, and suddenly popped into existence there. Would you feel the suns gravity immediately?

How long would it take?

Acording to modern physics, gravity would travel at the speed of light, there are a few good videos on youtube about this, that show that the change in gravity would follow the speed of light.
 
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Vatis

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Gravity doesn't have to travel, it's a force, and therefore you would feel it instantly.
You can imagine gravity as a dent in space, and if you are on that dent (= the effective range of the gravity where the force is physically significant), it affects you without delay.

Edit:
I'm not sure about a change in a gravitational field, that may have to travel, but if it's there it's there.
So as an analogy it's like the earth emitting a constant lightbeam, the beam itself has to travel but nevertheless you would see it instantly at another point in space. (Assuming the light had already had enough time to travel there)
 
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Delphiki

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It's my understanding that there is no speed of gravity. It's a property of matter, there's no elasticity to it. So if you popped into existence suddenly, or teleported, it doesn't have to find you, it's a property of you and every other tangible thing in the universe.

Mathematically speaking gravity can't have a speed because it's already measured by it's acceleration in relation to mass. 9.6 meters per second is a speed, 9.6 meters per second per second (or 9.8 m/s^2) is the acceleration of any object, in earth's gravity at sea level, in a vacuum, or 1 g. We also measure Newton's second law this way. A rocket ship accelerating at 3 g is literally going 29.4 m/s^2, and the forces the passengers feel are 3 times that of earths gravity.

So since gravity is essentially observed and measured as acceleration, it's not something that has a speed itself... unless you count the velocity of the mass that "owns" it.

At least, that's my understanding.

You should try playing Portal. :)
 
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Delphiki

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Gravity is embedded in the mass and is universal in its extent.

An electron on the edge of the universe exerts a gravitational pull on a giant star on the opposite edge of the universe.

There is no such a thing as "zero gravity" -- it is now called "microgravity".

Omigad, he knew something! Props! Yes, AV is correct here as far as I know.
 
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AV1611VET

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Omigad, he knew something! Props! Yes, AV is correct here as far as I know.
I coulda said that better -- I coulda said, "Gravity is a property of mass."

Thank you for the props! ;)
 
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NNSV

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I was wondering... gravity seems to work over immense distances, nobody knows how.

Suppose you could create something suddenly out of nowhere, maybe pop out of a worm hole or something.

How would gravity know you were there?

How fast would it find out?

Suppose you are out past Pluto somewhere, and suddenly popped into existence there. Would you feel the suns gravity immediately?

How long would it take?


This is a good question.

Force of gravity is an inverse square law.

F = (Gm1m2)(r/r^3),

where G is a constant, m1 is a test mass, and m2 is a mass at radius r. In the above equation, r = |r|. Most people will say gravity does not have speed, but force can also be written in terms of momentum (mass times velocity):

F =dp/dt

where p = mv. In quantum mechanics, p is a differential operator, operating on quantum state functions (which are most times sinusoidal.) For example, in the x coordinate, p = -(ih/2pi)(d/dx), where i is the square root of -1, and h/2pi is the reduced Plank Constant. Quantum mechanics will then state that instead of linear momentum that depends on velocity, quantum momentum of particles move as wave packets. These wave packets usually have a packet speed equal to c, the speed of light.


Just like a moving car has a force of impact and a velocity, gravity waves propagate at a speed, and exert a force. The thing is, the strength of the force-field is reduced by the square of the distance. So, the effects of gravity are short-ranged: the closer the mass is to the test mass, the higher the force exerted on the test mass. For example, the earth's center of mass is the core. In reality, nothing could ever drill through the core to China because you would oscillate between the core forever.

To answer your questions:

Gravity is a short-term force. The only way gravity can affect long range is if the wave packets have compressed enough to form very dense wave-lengths with very low frequencies (i.e. matter.) You must collapse the gravity waves into a dense packet in order for it to exert a cumulatively detectable physical force. Suns, planets and celestial bodies are examples of this. In the quantum world, where frequencies are high and densities are low, matter is rarely affected on a classical level. If the test particle is smaller than the mass object AND the test particle is very far from the mass object (relative to the radius of the test particle,) then there is very little physical effect on the test particle. Very minute.

If you popped out of a worm hole, which itself is a gravitational distortion of space-time, gravity would know you were there because the matter in the space you enter would act like test masses, and your entry into that part of space time would exert a force on the test masses (1) from the worm-hole, and (2) from your entry. The universe most definitely notices gravitational distortions of specs of dust, so a mega gravitational distortion would be noticed very far.

The speed of a wave packet depends on the medium you are in. For example, the Cherenkov Phenomenon is an event in which neutrinos move faster than the speed of light in heavy water, causing photonic sonic booms: the water radiates blue light. In a medium like space, where the temperature is only 2.5 K, the neutrino goes slower than a photon (light particle) because a neutrino has more collapsed wave packets/mass than light. So, if you enter into the vacuum of space, and we assume you move through the wormhole at the speed of light, quantum gravity would know you arrive instantaneously. Classical gravity, or even a mix, would know much later (comparatively speaking). A sun may be affected by the wormhole and entry 0.00000000000000000000000000000001 seconds after it is quantum mechanically visible.

Because it is theorized that collapsed gravitational wave packets (matter) may exist as infinitesimally massive particle called a graviton, you would feel the affect of the sun immediately (as you do the sum of affects of all things in the universe,) but the force of the sun is so diminished at that distance for a test-mass like a human. Pluto would have more gravitational effect on you than the sun, though you would immediately feel its quantum mechanical effects.
 
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NNSV

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ok so if two bodies poofed into existence, they would attract each other as soon as the "felt" each other.

And if just one of them poofed into existence, it would already be in the other's gravitational field.

Paradox: reference frames.

If you are poofing into existence, to you you are poofing into whatever space you are going to, this will have two sets of equations because of the two reference frames: you being stationary and the universe moving toward YOU (universe poofs), and you being kinetic moving toward the universe, and the universe is constant (human poof).

If you are the universe and you see me poofing, you could either have a stationary reference frame seeing me poof TOWARD you, or you could have the reference frame of the universe kinetically moving toward me, while I am stationary (making it seem like the universe is poofing.)

In general, you will have four sets of n equations to describe the motion: two for each poofer.
 
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Hespera

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Paradox: reference frames.

If you are poofing into existence, to you you are poofing into whatever space you are going to, this will have two sets of equations because of the two reference frames: you being stationary and the universe moving toward YOU (universe poofs), and you being kinetic moving toward the universe, and the universe is constant (human poof).

If you are the universe and you see me poofing, you could either have a stationary reference frame seeing me poof TOWARD you, or you could have the reference frame of the universe kinetically moving toward me, while I am stationary (making it seem like the universe is poofing.)

In general, you will have four sets of n equations to describe the motion: two for each poofer.


sheesh. no wonder im not a physicist
 
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Michael

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Acording to modern physics, gravity would travel at the speed of light, there are a few good videos on youtube about this, that show that the change in gravity would follow the speed of light.

I would say that you are probably correct that "many" scientists expect it to be related to the speed of light, but.....

It's not really certain what the speed of gravity might be or that it is related to the speed of light. The EM field is limited to the speed of light because the photon is the carrier particle of EM kinetic energy. In QM, "gravitons" are thought to be the carrier particle of gravity, and *their* speed would determine the speed of gravity assuming that a QM version of gravity eventually replaces GR theory. In terms of GR theory proper, it's not altogether clear what the speed of gravity might be.

In short, I don't think anyone can answer that question "yet".
 
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Maxwell511

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ok so if two bodies poofed into existence, they would attract each other as soon as the "felt" each other.

It is probably easier to think of this problem in terms of bodies poofing out of existence than into it.

In the Sun disappeared we would still feel its gravitational attraction as long as we could see it. Gravity travels at the speed of light.
 
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Hespera

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It is probably easier to think of this problem in terms of bodies poofing out of existence than into it.

In the Sun disappeared we would still feel its gravitational attraction as long as we could see it. Gravity travels at the speed of light.


I may have a bad dream about that one.
 
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Delphiki

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It is probably easier to think of this problem in terms of bodies poofing out of existence than into it.

In the Sun disappeared we would still feel its gravitational attraction as long as we could see it. Gravity travels at the speed of light.


Wouldn't that suggest that gravity is made of something? Like a particle? I was under the impression that gravity can't have a speed simply because it's a measure of acceleration and a property of matter. Then again, I'm no physicist either.

I wouldn't think there'd be a way of knowing otherwise without a way to test this.
 
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