Is God Unjust in human terms

[grasping the after wind]

Grasping after the wind,

You write,"Every living human has been, from the time of conception, in violation of the two greatest commandments to love God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself. Not one of us has ever lived up to that standard."

Even Jesus?

I cannot speak for Jesus in this matter as I was not around during his earthly lifetime. Perhaps being fully divine as well as fully human made him capable of being fully selfless unlike any of the rest of us? Perhaps he is the exception that proves the rule? Are you aware of any human, that was not also God, that has lived up to the standard of selflessness Jesus set forth in the two commandments? If so provide the evidence of that person's complete lack of unselfish behavior and complete devotion and preoccupation with loving God and I will recant my remarks.

In human terms, it is unjust to get or be given that which we do not deserve. That being the case can you show me anyone that is not unjust in human terms. If we have a beam in our eyes, by human terms, why would we attempt to remove what we consider, by human terms, to be a mote in the eye of God? Wouldn't we be less hypocritical and wiser if we first make ourselves at least as just in human terms as we expect God to be in those human terms before we start pointing out what we perceive to be God's faults?

 

[Ceridwen]

In human terms "injustice" is to punish people for crimes which they hadn't committed.

The "injustice" (in human terms) of God goes quite a bit further than imputed guilt. It would be vicious (in human terms) for one person (Person 1) to curse another person (Person 2), regardless of whether Person 2's guilt was imputed or was personally-generated. God curses his enemies, he blesses his friends. He hates other people. This is wrong for a man but right for God.

"What will we say, then? There is no injustice with God, is there?" "May it never be!"

 

[Ceridwen]

Calvinists do not view God as vicious, but as virtuous. In fact, God's nature is the standard of Goodness. "This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all." 1 John 1:5. It is true that the Potter has different prerogatives than the clay. Romans 9:20.

 

[Ceridwen]

It is true that human values differ from divine values as black is from white. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight. But the believer agrees to God's assessment. If it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve. If humans do not defer to God's law, they defer to their own finite, changing lawlessness. If anyone should think to himself, I will do well enough if I follow the dictates of my heart, Yahweh will not pardon him. His wrath shall burn against him. And all the curses written in the book will come upon him.

Although we cannot evaluate the nature of God in the sense of "Judging God," the Saints praise it as good.

 

[Ceridwen]

God is just in human terms.

I'm not sure I can agree with the general statement that "God is just in human terms." It depends on what human you are talking about. There are two kinds of humans in this world -- the Children of God and the Children of Satan. 1 John 3:10. When a nonbeliever follows the dictates of his heart, he does not judge God as just.

The Natural Man applies his own "law" to himself and to God, and disagrees with God's judgments. Not only does the Natural Man have a problem with the economy of imputed guilt (as Steve has complained about), but the Natural Man has a more basic problem with God's curses, his hatred, his blessings, and his forgiveness. The Natural Man has a problem with the root idea of external authority. He does not submit to any law that he did not generate. For these reasons in particular, the Natural Man assesses God as unjust.

Of course, for the Children of God, who have been transformed, God is not unjust. The Children of God submit to the authority of God and agree with his judgments. They can see how God can be virtuous in cursing humans; they can also see how God can be virtuous in imputing guilt onto humans. -- Neither of these realities are any more palatable for the Natural Man. Both of these can be approved by a human only by the miracle of regeneration. The Children of God do not kick against the goads.

When a nonbeliever follows the dictates of his heart, he does not judge God as just. "If anyone should think to himself, "I will do well enough if I follow the dictates of my heart," Yahweh will not pardon him. His wrath shall burn against him. And all the curses written in the book will come upon him." Deuteronomy 29:18-20. With the froward God will show himself froward.

 

[twin1954]

I'm not sure I can agree with the general statement that "God is just in human terms." It depends on what human you are talking about. There are two kinds of humans in this world -- the Children of God and the Children of Satan. 1 John 3:10. When a nonbeliever follows the dictates of his heart, he does not judge God as just.

The Natural Man applies his own "law" to himself and to God, and disagrees with God's judgments. Not only does the Natural Man have a problem with the economy of imputed guilt (as Steve has complained about), but the Natural Man has a more basic problem with God's curses, his hatred, his blessings, and his forgiveness. The Natural Man has a problem with the root idea of external authority. He does not submit to any law that he did not generate. For these reasons in particular, the Natural Man assesses God as unjust.

Of course, for the Children of God, who have been transformed, God is not unjust. The Children of God submit to the authority of God and agree with his judgments. They can see how God can be virtuous in cursing humans; they can also see how God can be virtuous in imputing guilt onto humans. -- Neither of these realities are any more palatable for the Natural Man. Both of these can be approved by a human only by the miracle of regeneration. The Children of God do not kick against the goads.

When a nonbeliever follows the dictates of his heart, he does not judge God as just. "If anyone should think to himself, "I will do well enough if I follow the dictates of my heart," Yahweh will not pardon him. His wrath shall burn against him. And all the curses written in the book will come upon him." Deuteronomy 29:18-20. With the froward God will show himself froward.

The fact that the natural man doe not submit to the justice of God does not mean that God is not just in human terms. Man's philosophical ideas of justice have nothing to do with actual human justice. Justice doesn't change whether it is in human terms or God's. Justice isn't relative.

 

[Ceridwen]

You are certainly correct that "actual human justice" comes from God, whether the natural man is aware of it or not. But God's justice is not something that is palpable to the natural man -- because they do not value it. Jesus says: "What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight." Luke 16:15. An unregenerate person is so depraved that his ideas of goodness count for nothing; and worse than nothing — the very fact that he thinks something good is proof that it is really bad. The natural man does not perceive God as just -- that is what I mean when I say that God is not just in human terms. They don't feel, know, believe, or sense that he is just.

It is true that humans have an innate awareness that God's wrath is right. "They know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death." Romans 1:32. This is part of the Sensus Divinitatis taught by John Calvin. As Paul says in Romans 2:15, "The requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bear witness." But this awareness of God's right is not enough to switch off what seems to be right for them. "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death." Proverbs 14:12

 

[twin1954]

It is true that human values differ from divine values as black is from white. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight. But the believer agrees to God's assessment. If it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve. If humans do not defer to God's law, they defer to their own finite, changing lawlessness. If anyone should think to himself, I will do well enough if I follow the dictates of my heart, Yahweh will not pardon him. His wrath shall burn against him. And all the curses written in the book will come upon him.

Although we cannot evaluate the nature of God in the sense of "Judging God," the Saints praise it as good.

I understand your point and don't disagree. I would just point out that man's perception has nothing to do with reality. Man perceives that God loves so they make the love of God to be no love at all by thinking that He loves all men. Whether He is just or loving in human terms is moot and pointless. Man cannot and will not know either the love or justice of God until they have experienced it supernaturally by an act of God the Spirit working in them. What I showed the OP was that even in human logic and understanding God is just in the salvation of chosen sinners which cannot be denied. Which is why he has never responded to it.

 

[Ceridwen]

Steve: It seems to me that the differences between us are only a hair's width. We all agree in the doctrines of justification, faith, atonement, and judgment. When all there is left to debate about is imputed guilt and monergistic faith, then we are all pretty much swimming in the same pool. It seems odd that you would call Calvinism "Uncompassionate Theology" when your God is just as holy as ours is! As compared to your position, we aren't saying that hell's population will be even one more person larger. We are simply disagreeing about the details of how that population got there. This debate does not show our theology to be any less "compassionate" than yours. Tell us, how is your God any more tolerant of evil than ours is?:

"Joshua said to the people, He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you." Joshua 24:19-20.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

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This thread has undergone a cleanup. Some posts were removed that were not in violation, but responded to violations, and so they also had to go.

This is not the forum in which to debate Calvinism, and in no forum is it ever proper to attack or flame those who have differing beliefs.

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