Is God Unjust in human terms

[bcbsr]

Is God Just in human terms?

If in human terms it is unjust to reckon guilty those innocent of the crime or crimes of which they are accused, does Calvinism portray God as unjust?

For example Christ was innocent of committing sin and yet Calvinism interprets the Bible to say that he was subject to God's wrath, God being portrayed as deceiving Himself into believing Jesus was actually guilty of the sins of the world, and thus victimized the innocent.

Likewise regarding their view of the imputation of Adam's guilt. While people should be held accountable for their own sins, as indicated in De 24:16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin", it seems Calvinism portrays God as committing an act of injustice (in human terms) by imputing the guilt of Adam's sin to his descendants.

And while Calvinists could read such ideas into the Bible, insisting that the Bible can only be interpreted in light of Calvinism, it seems they fail to interpret the Bible in light of God's character.

So I ask Calvinists, from your perspective is God unjust in human terms?

 

[abacabb3]

Yes. Because man is unjust, if we were to measure God from our own imperfect sense of justice, God would be unjust.

However, because God created righteousness and knows its totality, He is truly the Righteous One.

The Lord is righteous in all His ways
And kind in all His deeds (Ps 145:17).

 

[bcbsr]

So seeing as in preaching the gospel to humans we should use human terms of which they understand, are you saying that verses like "God is just" 2Th 1:6a should be translated in human terms to say "God is unjust"? Else wouldn't you be misleading people?

 

[abacabb3]

So seeing as in preaching the gospel to humans we should use human terms of which they understand, are you saying that verses like "God is just" 2Th 1:6a should be translated in human terms to say "God is unjust"? Else wouldn't you be misleading people?

We should not be using "human terms." We should convey the truth using the terms God gives. I make no apologies about man's unrighteousness and God's justice. There is no need for a savior if man is just and God isn't.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Thank God that God is not just or we'd all be in trouble. Instead He is merciful.

 

[BryanW92]

So I ask Calvinists, from your perspective is God unjust in human terms?

God is God. We can't begin to judge him in human terms.

The correct question is: "Are humans righteous in God's terms?"

 

[BryanW92]

So seeing as in preaching the gospel to humans we should use human terms of which they understand, are you saying that verses like "God is just" 2Th 1:6a should be translated in human terms to say "God is unjust"? Else wouldn't you be misleading people?

Ever since humanism was introduced into theology at the beginning of the Renaissance, we stopped measuring ourselves with God's ruler and started measuring him with our ruler. Then, when he is too big to measure with that scale, we reduce his size to fit into a human-sized box. Because of this, we ask questions like "Is God just in human terms?" with a straight face and an actual seriousness.

 

[bcbsr]

The human concept of justice is to punish criminals for the crimes THEY PERSONALLY COMMITTED, and also to compensate victims of unjustified suffering.

In contrast it appears the Calvinist concept of "justice" is to impute guilt to the innocent, and in particular appears to advocate GUILT BY ASSOCIATION, as known (in human terms) as exercising prejudice.

Now as God defines virtue and God sets the example, to be children of God is to behave as God behaves. Now since the God of Calvinism, as you all have said, is unjust in human terms, and indeed exercises prejudice (in human terms), then is that not the way Calvinist also should behave?

 

[BryanW92]

In contrast it appears the Calvinist concept of "justice" is to impute guilt to the innocent, and in particular appears to advocate GUILT BY ASSOCIATION, as known (in human terms) as exercising prejudice.

The concept of Original Sin is not only Calvinist. It is Roman Catholic. It is Arminian/Wesleyan. And it is also Calvinist/Reformed. What branch of Christianity does not believe in Original Sin?

Ahh. Found it. http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/bcbsrth.html

 

[bcbsr]

Abacabb3,

You say, "We should not be using "human terms. We should convey the truth using the terms God gives."

Then why use translations at all, if meaning is irrelevant?

 

[bcbsr]

grasping after the wind,

You say, "Thank God that God is not just or we'd all be in trouble. Instead He is merciful."

Is that a Calvinist position, that God can't be both just and merciful?

 

[BryanW92]

grasping after the wind,

You say, "Thank God that God is not just or we'd all be in trouble. Instead He is merciful."

Is that a Calvinist position, that God can't be both just and merciful?

No. The Calvinist position is that he is just and merciful.

From the Westminster Larger Catechism:

Q. 7. What is God?
A. God is a Spirit, in and of himself infinite in being, glory, blessedness, and perfection; all-sufficient, eternal, unchangeable, incomprehensible, everywhere present, almighty, knowing all things, most wise, most holy, most just, most merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth.

 

[BryanW92]

Abacabb3,

You say, "We should not be using "human terms. We should convey the truth using the terms God gives."

Then why use translations at all, if meaning is irrelevant?

Perhaps we misunderstand you when you asked about "human terms". I thought you meant "human standards". Did you just mean "human words"?

 

[abacabb3]

Abacabb3,

You say, "We should not be using "human terms. We should convey the truth using the terms God gives."

Then why use translations at all, if meaning is irrelevant?

You're asking that we define justice differently than how the Bible defines it. If we do that, we might as well make up whatever we want and pull from the Quran and Book of Mormon while we're at it.

 

[grasping the after wind]

grasping after the wind,

You say, "Thank God that God is not just or we'd all be in trouble. Instead He is merciful."

Is that a Calvinist position, that God can't be both just and merciful?

I thought your question was about being just in human terms not in Calvinist terms. I'm pretty sure Calvinists believe God to be just and merciful according to God's standards but humans judge God's actions by their own faulty and depraved standards. As for imputing guilt to the innocent I, though not a Calvinist myself, do not find that to be the case as there exists no such innocent for guilt to be unjustly imputed to. Every living human has been, from the time of conception, in violation of the two greatest commandments to love God with all your heartand to love your neighbor as yourself. Not one of us has ever lived up to that standard.

 

[bcbsr]

Concerning my question, the meaning is clear. I've clearly described what I mean, which is simply what I suggest Calvinists do. In human terms "injustice" is to punish people for crimes which they hadn't committed. And thus as you admit from a Calvinist viewpoint, in human terms God is unjust.

The purpose of language is to communicate meaning. While Calvinists can talk among themselves using terms of which they've assigned their own meaning (according to THEIR INTERPRETATION of the Bible), I suggest when they are talking to humans they use human terms so that humans may understand what they mean. Unless, of course, their objective is to mislead.

 

[bcbsr]

Grasping after the wind,

You write,"Every living human has been, from the time of conception, in violation of the two greatest commandments to love God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself. Not one of us has ever lived up to that standard."

Even Jesus?

 

[BryanW92]

Concerning my question, the meaning is clear. I've clearly described what I mean, which is simply what I suggest Calvinists do. In human terms "injustice" is to punish people for crimes which they hadn't committed. And thus as you admit from a Calvinist viewpoint, in human terms God is unjust.

The purpose of language is to communicate meaning. While Calvinists can talk among themselves using terms of which they've assigned their own meaning (according to THEIR INTERPRETATION of the Bible), I suggest when they are talking to humans they use human terms so that humans may understand what they mean. Unless, of course, their objective is to mislead.

Please keep in mind the house rules:

House Rules-
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here (Community Rules). In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.

Accusing us of misleading, lying, interpreting scripture for our own aims, etc is a clear violation.

I was willing to discuss Calvinism with you, but your mind is already made up (and your web site has the "helpful" charts to prove it.)

 

[bcbsr]

Oh, I see, this forum is devoted to Calvinists discussing among themselves that which they already agree upon. Well, excuse me.

 

[BryanW92]

Oh, I see, this forum is devoted to Calvinists discussing among themselves that which they already agree upon. Well, excuse me.

Not quite, but the tone of your posts implies that we are up to no good and that you bring us the answers. Stop talking down to us and we can discuss things as equals.