Is God Just?

[Ioustinos]

Hi all

If God predestined certain men/women for salvation to glorify himself, does that mean that He predestined the fall of man which thrust men into a sinful nature? If so, how can God be just in judging us for sin?

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Jesaiah
Hi all

If God predestined certain men/women for salvation to glorify himself, does that mean that He predestined the fall of man which thrust men into a sinful nature? If so, how can God be just in judging us for sin?

I think the important thing to remember is that we are God's creation to deal with as He sees fit, which will be righteously because God is righteous.  Additionally, it is important to acknowledge that God is under no obligation to give us the grace to avoid acting in a sinful manner.  If He was, it would be as Paul says in Romans, no longer grace, but a debt on God's part (4:4).  God did not make, or cause, Adam to sin in the sense that He sovereignly guided Adams hand into disobedience.  God, according to His eternal Plan, knew that Adam would respond to the Law in a sinful way.  Adam, not having a sin nature, nor being enslaved to one, chose to sin, in much the same way that those who have been regenerated choose to sin.  The difference between him and us is that we are contending with, oftentimes, years worth of habitually disobedient behavior.

There are, I believe, some oversights that many, including myself, often make in this area.  First, God's ways are not ours.  We don't understand alot of the things He did.  That's okay.  I personally would hate to be as smart as a God I worship.  It would definitely make me fear Him less if that were the case.  Thankfully, it is not.  Also, all people, regardless of what Adam did, sin.  They sinned even before they had heard God's Word and knew what sinning against His Law was.  So, we are all guilty, Jew and Gentile alike.  The fate we have earned is to suffer the wrath of our Creator for all eternity.  The fact that He lovingly extends His grace and rescues some of the condemned from their abysmal fate shows His love, not our worthiness.

If we understand that as Christians we are spared from the eternal, condemning judgment of our God we are more likely to love and fear and worship Him as we were created to do.

God bless

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Please explain to me how sin is bad, if God controls our every action? How can we be blamed for sinning if He makes us sin?

I am honestly, totally, confused by your position and would kindly ask for explanation. Thanks.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Please explain to me how sin is bad, if God controls our every action? How can we be blamed for sinning if He makes us sin?

I am honestly, totally, confused by your position and would kindly ask for explanation. Thanks.

I have never said that God controls our every action nor do I see another discussion with you on these subjects as potentially fruitful.  I know that I am weak at responding in godliness.  I have little doubt that I would be ungodly to you.  I understand that you don't believe my position to be the truth and I hope that over time we can both grow more aware of God's presence and be representatives of His grace.

God bless

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Jesaiah
Hi all

If God predestined certain men/women for salvation to glorify himself, does that mean that He predestined the fall of man which thrust men into a sinful nature? If so, how can God be just in judging us for sin?

I do not know if predestined is the right word here but it may be.  But I think that we both believe that God is omniscent and omnipotent.  And that He is also sovereign.  So given these qualities God knew that the fall was going to happen before the begining of time.  He allowed the fall to occur under His soveriegn will.  He did this for His purposes as Reformanist has said and that we will not understand His decision until we can get it from Him face to face.  But God has His reasons and we believe that those reasons are just and good. 

One point though.  God did not make the fall occur. He did not make us sin.  We did that on our own with the choice and freedom He gave us.  And that is really the crux of my argument here.  God gave us the freedom to sin.  For some reason God thinks that this is just compared to not giving us this freedom and thus having no sin.  I believe also that His reasons are just even though I do not know what they are.  I have faith in Him. 

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by Reformationist
I have never said that God controls our every action nor do I see another discussion with you on these subjects as potentially fruitful.  I know that I am weak at responding in godliness.  I have little doubt that I would be ungodly to you.  I understand that you don't believe my position to be the truth and I hope that over time we can both grow more aware of God's presence and be representatives of His grace.

God bless

You dont think that God predetermines everything?  I thought you said that, my apologies.  I would still like to understand your posistion.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Blackhawk
God did not make the fall occur. He did not make us sin.  We did that on our own with the choice and freedom He gave us.  And that is really the crux of my argument here.  God gave us the freedom to sin.

While I fully agree with these statements I will acknowledge that understanding this is sometimes difficult.  I believe one of the things that I disagree with alot of people about is that our desire to act according to our flesh, if not given God's restraining grace, is not freedom.  It is bondage.  Even after we are saved we are still desire driven.  I believe it was Jonathan Edwards who said that "we will always act according to our greatest desire or inclination at the moment."  At times our desire to please God is more than our desire to please our flesh and thus, we are obedient.  At other times our desire to fulfill our lusts is greater and consequently our desire to please God is lessened.  The result is that we are sinful.  It is God's grace in our lives that restrains us from continually sinning.  Also, and this is veeerrrry important, we must remember that we are God's creation to do with as He will, and that He is under no obligation to give us that restraining grace.  Oftentimes it seems as if people assume that because God created us He is under some obligation to extend His grace to us, as if there is some set of rules that God must adhere to.  The problem with that mode of thinking is that once we assume God owes us His grace, it is no longer grace.  The whole thing that makes grace grace is that it is undeserved.  Otherwise it's a debt, not grace.

God bless

 

[eldermike]

Oftentimes it seems as if people assume that because God created us He is under some obligation to extend His grace to us, as if there is some set of rules that God must adhere to. The problem with that mode of thinking is that once we assume God owes us His grace, it is no longer grace. The whole thing that makes grace grace is that it is undeserved. Otherwise it's a debt, not grace.

Amen!!!

This is the whole deal, and the reason for our different understandings of the same texts. Only by the grace of God do I even write this, I could be stealing money, taking drugs, cheating on my wife, but by His grace I am writing about His grace and mercy on my worthless flesh.

Any credit I give "me" for what I am, who I am or where I am going is a boast, nothing more than a boast.

I abide in Him because He loves me, because He sought me, He bought me and He holds me.

Blessings

 

[AndOne]

Originally posted by Blackhawk
One point though.  God did not make the fall occur. He did not make us sin.  We did that on our own with the choice and freedom He gave us.  And that is really the crux of my argument here.  God gave us the freedom to sin.  For some reason God thinks that this is just compared to not giving us this freedom and thus having no sin.  I believe also that His reasons are just even though I do not know what they are.  I have faith in Him. 

The result of sin is death - there is no freedom in that.

We are all sinners - we are all predestined to sin as part of our nature.

We are all dead - worthy of hell.

We have all been given the choice to escape death - by accepting the grace provided for at calvary by the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Repentence will come after salvation - any repentance before salvation is works based - and will not result in eternal life - only frustration.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Reformationist
While I fully agree with these statements I will acknowledge that understanding this is sometimes difficult.  I believe one of the things that I disagree with alot of people about is that our desire to act according to our flesh, if not given God's restraining grace, is not freedom.  It is bondage.  Even after we are saved we are still desire driven.  I believe it was Jonathan Edwards who said that "we will always act according to our greatest desire or inclination at the moment."  At times our desire to please God is more than our desire to please our flesh and thus, we are obedient.  At other times our desire to fulfill our lusts is greater and consequently our desire to please God is lessened.  The result is that we are sinful.  It is God's grace in our lives that restrains us from continually sinning.  Also, and this is veeerrrry important, we must remember that we are God's creation to do with as He will, and that He is under no obligation to give us that restraining grace.  Oftentimes it seems as if people assume that because God created us He is under some obligation to extend His grace to us, as if there is some set of rules that God must adhere to.  The problem with that mode of thinking is that once we assume God owes us His grace, it is no longer grace.  The whole thing that makes grace grace is that it is undeserved.  Otherwise it's a debt, not grace.

God bless

I do not have any problems with what you said here.  If anywhere in my post you had some feelings that I thought the opposite of what you said please tell me. God owes us nothing.  We owe complete and total worship and obedience. 

Also what I meant by the freedom of sin is not that sin brings us freedom in anyway.  The Bible is clear that it enslaves us and that Christ set us free from being slaves to sin so we can be part of His family.  My point was that God gives us the ability to go against His moral will.  That in His sovereign will is to allow us to do evil if WE choose to do evil.  He gives us that choice which we are free to make.  However the consequences of that choice is that we make us slaves to sin more and more unless God intervenes and gives us grace and frees us from the result of our choice. 

Now how original sin affects our choice to sin is more complicated but because we have inherited a sin nature we will choose only to sin unless God intervenes but we are free to do that.  Like you said our desire is just to sin instead of doing good so we sin.  We still have a choice but we will always choose to sin because that is what we want to do until God intervenes.  And really when God intervenes He gives us more freedom because we are then free to do good if we want to although we still can sin. 

It is kind of confusing to me so I hope that this came out well.  Basically what I am trying to say is that we have a freedom to choose to be slaves to sin or not.  However we will always choose to be slaves becasue that is our desire unless God gives us grace.  When this occurs we become children of God because we want to out our faith in Him. (because of His changes)  ONce this occurs we can still sin but now we can do righteous acts because He inputed Chrit's righteousness upon us and regenerated us.  So thus we are even more free at then. 

blackhawk

 

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by Jesaiah
Hi all

If God predestined certain men/women for salvation to glorify himself, does that mean that He predestined the fall of man which thrust men into a sinful nature? If so, how can God be just in judging us for sin?

God is just because He is righteous.
God is just because He is impartial.
God is just because He is all-knowing.
That is what gives Him the right to judge our sin.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Behe's Boy
The result of sin is death - there is no freedom in that.

We are all sinners - we are all predestined to sin as part of our nature.

We are all dead - worthy of hell.

We have all been given the choice to escape death - by accepting the grace provided for at calvary by the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Repentence will come after salvation - any repentance before salvation is works based - and will not result in eternal life - only frustration.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.  I am not saying we are not dead in our sins before God intervenes or that Jesus did not free us from the curse of our own sin when He died on the cross.  I was just stating that God allowed us to sin so that we could make ourselves slaves to sin.  Sin is not a master that was not chosen by us.  We freely chose to have sin as our master just like we freely choose to become a part of God's family after God gives us grace.  Understand?

 

[Anthony]

Is God Just? He is better than that He is merciful

The predestination thing, we are all destined for the junk pile, If God left us to our own doings. Somepeople don't make it, look at Judas

JN 17:12
While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

We want everyone to be saved, we hope that no one slips through the cracks, that somehow at the end, God has a big amnesty program and everyone lives happily ever after.

We are here, we perform at and for God's pleasure, we are not owed or due anything. Our salavation is at God's discretion.

But some have perish, or does God at judgement day give out free passes to heaven, and release all those who have perished over the ages. Does God say at the end "Just kidding don't do it again".

 

[arab4christ]

Yes God is just....The way us humans have treated him, he should have blew this earth up along time ago.

And for the question, in my opinion, believe our human brains cannot comprehend the answer. All we can give is opinions.

God bless

a4c

 

[eldermike]

Perhaps the influence of ones understanding of original sin is the issue with most of these type questions.

Some believe that to remain saved they must resist sin, while also holding a belief that a savior was needed for salvation. This is IMO a gross misunderstanding of salvation. If you need a savior because you inherited a sin nature, but can only retain salvation by somehow resisting this nature, then you could have gained that without a Savior. Please read this circular statement until you see it!

God made man, man sinned, God gave His Son so that all who believe that they need His Son are saved. That is justice in it's highest form.

The injustice comes from us, we are not getting the message across. We are telling people that they need to stop sinning. That is the message of injustice, it denies original sin and the work of the cross.

Blessings

 

[Ioustinos]

Eldermike,

I am bit confused by your post. How is it an injustice to tell people to stop sinning? Are we not, as Christians, called to do all that we can to try and refrain from sin so that we may glorify God? The example that immediately comes to my mind is Jesus and the woman caught in adultery. Jesus forgave her and told her to go and sin no more, so how is it an injustice to teach others to try and refrain from sinning against God?

 

[eldermike]

I am bit confused by your post. How is it an injustice to tell people to stop sinning? Are we not, as Christians, called to do all that we can to try and refrain from sin so that we may glorify God? The example that immediately comes to my mind is Jesus and the woman caught in adultery. Jesus forgave her and told her to go and sin no more, so how is it an injustice to teach others to try and refrain from sinning against God?

I am talking about our message to the lost. We should tell christians to seek a closer walk with God for sure.

Think about our message to the lost: We tell them to turn from sin and seek God. If they could turn from sin they would not need God. God changes hearts after they belong to Him, it's not our job and it's an impossibility for the lost, yet we insist that they not sin. Apart from God we can do nothing. Yet we ask them to do everything that it took Jesus death on a cross to gain while they are apart from God. We should tell the lost to come as they are. That is our injustice.

 

[Ioustinos]

Eldermike,

Thanks for the elaboration