Is God infinitely ancient?

com7fy8 · Oct 16, 2017

God has always existed. He can not change. Because He is unchangeable, He can not go into or out of existence. This is His nature. And this means how His love can not break down, in spite of all the evil. His love can not get tired or worn out, and this in us makes us more and more truly stable in character . . . not depending only, merely on self-control and self-discipline and methods and managing our circumstances in order to have peace and rest.

Tolworth John · Oct 16, 2017

Did God exist from infinite time in the past?
Answer No, as there has not been an infinite of time in the past.
The question shows poor understanding of who and what God is.
God created time, spave, energy and matter.
Therefore God is not afected by his creation, time.

GingerBeer · Oct 16, 2017

Time is created and God is not so no. Did God Not exist from infinite time in the past.

DennisTate · Oct 16, 2017

com7fy8 said:
God has always existed. He can not change. Because He is unchangeable, He can not go into or out of existence. This is His nature. And this means how His love can not break down, in spite of all the evil. His love can not get tired or worn out, and this in us makes us more and more truly stable in character . . . not depending only, merely on self-control and self-discipline and methods and managing our circumstances in order to have peace and rest.

I agree........
but can God learn?

Can God get a little bit better at creating?

Can God get to know his family and friends better over......... time?

Gen 22:12

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only sonfrom me.

DennisTate · Oct 16, 2017

Tolworth John said:
Did God exist from infinite time in the past?
Answer No, as there has not been an infinite of time in the past.
The question shows poor understanding of who and what God is.
God created time, spave, energy and matter.
Therefore God is not afected by his creation, time.

But.... can God rejoice in His creation?

Can God have fun........ creating?

If God is having fun...... isn't God being affected by his creation?

com7fy8 · Oct 16, 2017

DennisTate said:
can God learn?

In a personal form, yes. Jesus grew in grace and truth while on this earth. I consider that though God knows all, each of His Persons can specialize in what each Person actively and consciously knows.

DennisTate said:
Can God get a little bit better at creating?

As Jesus grows in us (Galatians 4:19), we in union with Him become more and more creative as He grows in us. But God by nature is always fully and perfectly creative; but what He is doing in us can grow.

DennisTate said:
Can God get to know his family and friends better over......... time?

God can already know everything, but how much his family and friends become able to share with Him is what grows. This could be the case, in your example below >

DennisTate said:
Gen 22:12

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only sonfrom me.

Knowing can mean what you are aware of and it can mean acknowledging, recognizing with someone else what you already knew by yourself. I think this means the LORD was recognizing and acknowledging in relationship and sharing with Abraham . . . though He already knew the outcome before the test.

Also, possibly God in Abraham was changing Abraham to become so obedient, even in the process of the test. So, God could not know, in the present that Abraham really put God first, until God in Abraham changed him to become so, right during the test. And only then could the LORD know, in the present tense < only after God had matured Abraham to become so. But He knew ahead of time what would happen.

Maybe we could say the LORD knew, intellectually, even before Abraham obeyed Him. But . . . also . . . then He knew in personal sharing with Abraham. So, the knowing became relational and personal, once Abraham obeyed and knew that the LORD knew.

By the way, we have >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

So, I understand that God was in Abraham working him to so obey. And then God said He knew Abraham put God first. God does have us being and living as individual persons, with personal communication with God, though it is God in and through it all

Tolworth John · Oct 16, 2017

DennisTate said:
But.... can God rejoice in His creation?

Can God have fun........ creating?

If God is having fun...... isn't God being affected by his creation?

All of creation was made for God and look at the lavishness with which God has created.
There are small fly's with pictures of ants on there wings! Butterflies colours are caused by light refraction of scales, Who sees all the amazing shapes showflakes make?

Tha awesomeness of creation tell me God takes pleasure both in creating and in creation.

DennisTate · Oct 16, 2017

com7fy8 said:
In a personal form, yes. Jesus grew in grace and truth while on this earth. I consider that though God knows all, each of His Persons can specialize in what each Person actively and consciously knows.

As Jesus grows in us (Galatians 4:19), we in union with Him become more and more creative as He grows in us. But God by nature is always fully and perfectly creative; but what He is doing in us can grow.

God can already know everything, but how much his family and friends become able to share with Him is what grows. This could be the case, in your example below >

Knowing can mean what you are aware of and it can mean acknowledging, recognizing with someone else what you already knew by yourself. I think this means the LORD was recognizing and acknowledging in relationship and sharing with Abraham . . . though He already knew the outcome before the test.

Also, possibly God in Abraham was changing Abraham to become so obedient, even in the process of the test. So, God could not know, in the present that Abraham really put God first, until God in Abraham changed him to become so, right during the test. And only then could the LORD know, in the present tense < only after God had matured Abraham to become so. But He knew ahead of time what would happen.

Maybe we could say the LORD knew, intellectually, even before Abraham obeyed Him. But . . . also . . . then He knew in personal sharing with Abraham. So, the knowing became relational and personal, once Abraham obeyed and knew that the LORD knew.

By the way, we have >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

So, I understand that God was in Abraham working him to so obey. And then God said He knew Abraham put God first. God does have us being and living as individual persons, with personal communication with God, though it is God in and through it all

Well said.......
over enough time...... God can begin to speak through you and I......
and do work through us.........
and give a special message through us.........

One author claims to have a visionary dream in which he met the Patriarch Adam......
his two page writing is brilliant...........
and highly inspirational..... and if in fact that visionary dream was from God... then all of us can
find some consolation in the astonishing wisdom given to Adam.... .if he really gave the following message to Pastor Rick Joyner in a dream back in 1995:

A message from Adam to all of humanity?! Does this sound legitimate to you???

aiki · Oct 16, 2017

DennisTate said:
Did God exist from infinite time in the past?

If so.... what was God doing?

Science tells us that time, space, matter and energy all came in to being at the Big Bang. There was no time prior to this moment. So, God did not exist in a state ordered by time before He made the universe. In fact, it is incoherent to use the word "before" to refer to when God existed prior to the Big Bang. There was no "before" since time did not exist.

What was God doing in this timeless state? The Bible doesn't really go into much detail in answer to this question.

DennisTate said:
if God..........
actually planned, engineered and choreographed an essentially infinite
number of Big Bang type events......(they might actually might have been more
like a Big Flash though)...... .then.....

There is no concrete evidence that any of your speculation here is warranted or possible. If the standard Big Bang model is correct, then God was not doing what you imagine here.

DennisTate said:
.then..... investing infinite time in the past in the
creation........ could make the creation infinitely valuable to God.......

This is a non sequitur. God's investment in Creation does not necessarily make it valuable to Him. Scripture says God will burn up the heaven and earth and make new ones. This doesn't sound to me like God thinks His Creation is "infinitely valuable." I would urge you to do some reading on God's aseity. God is utterly complete in Himself. He needs nothing. The Creation does not add to His perfection. Perfection cannot be added to.

DennisTate said:
but we humans are so young...... that we place relatively low value on our
lives and even less value on the lives of others...... and even less value than that
on the lives of animals, birds, fish and plants.

Nothing in God's word suggests we should think of Creation as inifinitely valuable.

truckerdan · Oct 16, 2017

DennisTate said:
Did God exist from infinite time in the past?

If so.... what was God doing?

There is a saying that "It's the economy s.....!" This question actually
has a relationship with the economy and money because...... .if.....
God existed from eternity in the past and if God..........
actually planned, engineered and choreographed an essentially infinite
number of Big Bang type events......(they might actually might have been more
like a Big Flash though)...... .then..... investing infinite time in the past in the
creation........ could make the creation infinitely valuable to God.......
but we humans are so young...... that we place relatively low value on our
lives and even less value on the lives of others...... and even less value than that
on the lives of animals, birds, fish and plants.

What God was doing only God knows; but in my opinion Time is a dimension that may not exist in heaven; since eternity has no beginning; and God has made us with no end. Time is a necessity here while in these temples.

aiki · Oct 16, 2017

DennisTate said:
"These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father."

As of today, October 16, 2017, the best theory that I have as to a possible fulfillment of this promise...... to in the future...... speak plainly of the Father...... is near death experience accounts where somebody meets with Messiah Yeshua - Jesus and reviews their lives.

It is in Christ himself that the Father is revealed, not near-death experiences.

DennisTate · Oct 16, 2017

aiki said:
It is in Christ himself that the Father is revealed, not near-death experiences.

Then this presents us with a question.......
was the being of light who reviewed the life of former Atheist Howard Storm.......
Satan appearing as an angel of light........ or
Messiah Yeshua - Jesus in his glorious immortal body, keeping his promise:

John 5:22

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"

For the first part of Howard's experience... Howard feels he was meeting with Messiah Yeshua - Jesus in person..... .but other parts of his life review was with several beings of light like Jesus/ Yeshua.

.near-death.com/experiences/notable/howard-storm.html#a03

3. The Life Review of Howard Storm

Next, they wanted to talk about my life. To my surprise my life played out before me, maybe six or eight feet in front of me, from beginning to end.

The life review was very much in their control, and they showed me my life, but not from my point of view. I saw me in my life and this whole thing was a lesson, even though I didn't know it at the time. They were trying to teach me something, but I didn't know it was a teaching experience, because I didn't know that I would be coming back. We just watched my life from beginning to the end. Some things they slowed down on, and zoomed in on and other things they went right through.

My life was shown in a way that I had never thought of before. All of the things that I had worked to achieve, the recognition that I had worked for, in elementary school, in high school, in college, and in my career, they meant nothing in this setting.

I could feel their feelings of sorrow and suffering, or joy, as my life's review unfolded. They didn't say that something was bad or good, but I could feel it. And I could sense all those things they were indifferent to. They didn't, for example, look down on my high school shot-put record. They just didn't feel anything towards it, nor towards other things which I had taken so much pride in.

What they responded to was how I had interacted with other people. That was the long and short of it. Unfortunately, most of my interactions with other people didn't measure up with how I should have interacted, which was in a loving way. Whenever I did react during my life in a loving way they rejoiced.

Most of the time I found that my interactions with other people had been manipulative. During my professional career, for example, I saw myself sitting in my office, playing the college professor, while a student came to me with a personal problem. I sat there looking compassionate, and patient, and loving, while inside I was bored to death. I would check my watch under my desk as I anxiously waited for the student to finish.
......

DennisTate · Oct 16, 2017

aiki said:
Science tells us that time, space, matter and energy all came in to being at the Big Bang. There was no time prior to this moment. So, God did not exist in a state ordered by time before He made the universe. In fact, it is incoherent to use the word "before" to refer to when God existed prior to the Big Bang. There was no "before" since time did not exist.

What was God doing in this timeless state? The Bible doesn't really go into much detail in answer to this question.

There is no concrete evidence that any of your speculation here is warranted or possible. If the standard Big Bang model is correct, then God was not doing what you imagine here.

This is a non sequitur. God's investment in Creation does not necessarily make it valuable to Him. Scripture says God will burn up the heaven and earth and make new ones. This doesn't sound to me like God thinks His Creation is "infinitely valuable." I would urge you to do some reading on God's aseity. God is utterly complete in Himself. He needs nothing. The Creation does not add to His perfection. Perfection cannot be added to.

Nothing in God's word suggests we should think of Creation as inifinitely valuable.

But... chapter 13 of Stephen Hawking's Universe entitled The Anthropic Principle elaborates on
an Atheistic variation on the Cyclic Model of the Universe that postulates an infinite number of Big Bang events going back essentially into infinite time in the past.

I could be wrong.... but one possible explanation for that chapter in his book is that Stephen Hawking Ph. D. is a closet Theist........
who was setting us up......
to quote him....... and put forward a much more Theistic version of Evolutionary Theory that
actually could soon be taught in universities and schools.

DennisTate · Oct 16, 2017

truckerdan said:
What God was doing only God knows; but in my opinion Time is a dimension that may not exist in heaven; since eternity has no beginning; and God has made us with no end. Time is a necessity here while in these temples.

I whole heartedly agree.......

John 5:20

For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

DennisTate · Oct 16, 2017

aiki said:
Science tells us that time, space, matter and energy all came in to being at the Big Bang. There was no time prior to this moment. So, God did not exist in a state ordered by time before He made the universe. In fact, it is incoherent to use the word "before" to refer to when God existed prior to the Big Bang. There was no "before" since time did not exist.

What was God doing in this timeless state? The Bible doesn't really go into much detail in answer to this question.

There is no concrete evidence that any of your speculation here is warranted or possible. If the standard Big Bang model is correct, then God was not doing what you imagine here.

This is a non sequitur. God's investment in Creation does not necessarily make it valuable to Him. Scripture says God will burn up the heaven and earth and make new ones. This doesn't sound to me like God thinks His Creation is "infinitely valuable." I would urge you to do some reading on God's aseity. God is utterly complete in Himself. He needs nothing. The Creation does not add to His perfection. Perfection cannot be added to.

Nothing in God's word suggests we should think of Creation as inifinitely valuable.

If...... my theory is valid that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus the incarnated Word / Logos
views the creation as being of much greater value than we do..........
then over time our valuation of the creation should increase and increase and increase.

Phl 2:5

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

aiki · Oct 16, 2017

DennisTate said:
Then this presents us with a question.......
was the being of light who reviewed the life of former Atheist Howard Storm.......
Satan appearing as an angel of light........ or
Messiah Yeshua - Jesus in his glorious immortal body, keeping his promise:

This is a false dichotomy. There is another possible option: Howard could have imagined the entire thing. His experience sounds very...cliched, to me. In any case, we have no good grounds that I can see to think Howard's NDE should be taken with any great seriousness.

DennisTate said:
But... chapter 13 of Stephen Hawking's Universe entitled The Anthropic Principle elaborates on
an Atheistic variation on the Cyclic Model of the Universe that postulates an infinite number of Big Bang events going back essentially into infinite time in the past.

For which postulation there is only ultimately speculation. Hawking wants to avoid the idea of a Designer or God-Creator, and his cyclical model of the universe enables him to do so. But there is no concrete evidence that his model is what is actually the case.

com7fy8 · Oct 16, 2017

DennisTate said:
One author claims to have a visionary dream in which he met the Patriarch Adam......

I glanced at it. It seems to have too much emphasis on Christians, because of living in love, having power to control things and call for judgments.

Most of all, judgment begins with us > 1 Peter 4:17. We have our own correction that we need > Hebrews 12:4-11.

Also, we have our New Testament writers who have given us so much more than what is in Pastor Joyner's claimed communication with Adam.

And the main focus, in my opinion, of the New Testament writers is how God is changing us to be like Jesus and is using ministry mainly for this > Colossians 1:28-29, Philippians 2:13-16, Hebrews 12:4-11, Ephesians 3, Romans 8:29.

So, the main emphasis of God's word is not how we have power and authority and ability to call for judgments. Most of all, we are being corrected and mature into how God's love has us becoming. So, speaking only about people lov-ing can be not dealing with how love has us become in Jesus.

Yes, we love; but how do we become, in the process? Are we loving in more of a human ability, or how God's love and leading have us loving while His love is curing our character?

Among other things >

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

We are first about pleasing God . . . being pleasing to Him in the "incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God" . . . while we do what He has us doing. And this gentle and quiet spirit of God's love is "incorruptible" . . . making us so we can not be corrupted by "bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking, with all malice" (Ephesians 4:31).

So, how much do Pastor Joyner's claimed messengers feed you with this????? Our attention needs to be to all which God's word emphasizes, first. But in a lot of ministering I am hearing only or mainly about what we can have power to do and what God wants to do for us in our lives, but not at least as much attention to how to become pleasing to God and submissive to Him in how He rules us in His own peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

aiki · Oct 16, 2017

DennisTate said:
If...... my theory is valid that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus the incarnated Word / Logos
views the creation as being of much greater value than we do..........
then over time our valuation of the creation should increase and increase and increase.

I suppose. But so far I haven't seen any good reason to think your theory is valid but can think of good reasons why it isn't. Be careful you don't massage your unproven theory into something more than it is.

truckerdan · Oct 16, 2017

DennisTate said:
If...... my theory is valid that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus the incarnated Word / Logos
views the creation as being of much greater value than we do..........
then over time our valuation of the creation should increase and increase and increase.

Phl 2:5

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

"Nothing in God's word suggests we should think of Creation as inifinitely valuable."
Agreed that a man should not think more of himself than he ought, but God thought of man enough to breathe life into his nostrils; and loved the world enough to send Yeshua to die for it. God gives us eternal life. How long is eternal?
To say that God's Word does not speak of the Value He places on it is at best inaccurate.

DennisTate · Oct 16, 2017

aiki said:
This is a false dichotomy. There is another possible option: Howard could have imagined the entire thing. His experience sounds very...cliched, to me. In any case, we have no good grounds that I can see to think Howard's NDE should be taken with any great seriousness.

For which postulation there is only ultimately speculation. Hawking wants to avoid the idea of a Designer or God-Creator, and his cyclical model of the universe enables him to do so. But there is no concrete evidence that his model is what is actually the case.

Very interesting reply indeed...........
I have to admit that I personally am emotionally invested in near death experience accounts because they got me kicked out of two churches...........
that I had many friends in.......
so I have a psychological need to think that all of that was not a waste.

With that in mind.......
this discussion may make more sense to you.... even if my theory is terribly in error???!

The being of light of NDE fame, G-d or Satan?

It seems to me that we are in a situation somewhat like the time of the Prophet Elijah.

1Kings 18:21 "And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word."

I began to study these experiences a great deal back in 1990. They immediately made me realize that the "soul sleep" doctrine that I had been taught was almost certainly in error. I got kicked out of two churches due to disagreements mainly over that doctrine. But as a Christian there was no way that I could deny the possibility of people having an "out of the body experience!"

2 Corinthians 12:2 "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

Is God infinitely ancient?

Did God exist from infinite time in the past?

Yes.....

No.....

I am not sure.... but this is an interesting question.

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