Is God active at all in the reprobate?

[akolouthein]

I've been recently perusing these boards and learning a lot. Until I started searching here I had no clue about the principles behind double predestination and could not grasp it but that has started to change. I'm hoping someone can answer a few questions I have about the subject.

Since God has elected some to be saved does the Holy Spirit work in the reprobate at all? For example, I know that the Holy Spirit was at work in me for a long time and led me to belief in Christ. Does the Holy Spirit even bother with the reprobate at all? Does God try to lead them?

Is double predestination one of the great mysteries? How can God even create a human knowing that will end up in hell? With this belief I'm not sure we can fully understand the mind of God and this would seem to fall into that category.

Thanks in advance and for all the great posts!

 

[cygnusx1]

I've been recently perusing these boards and learning a lot. Until I started searching here I had no clue about the principles behind double predestination and could not grasp it but that has started to change. I'm hoping someone can answer a few questions I have about the subject.

Since God has elected some to be saved does the Holy Spirit work in the reprobate at all? For example, I know that the Holy Spirit was at work in me for a long time and led me to belief in Christ. Does the Holy Spirit even bother with the reprobate at all? Does God try to lead them?

Is double predestination one of the great mysteries? How can God even create a human knowing that will end up in hell? With this belief I'm not sure we can fully understand the mind of God and this would seem to fall into that category.

Thanks in advance and for all the great posts!

Hi akolouthein , yes The Lord is active around upon and in the reprobate ....... All Humanity live and move and have their being in God .

Occasionally one will see men deny God works upon the reprobate (except to damn) but scripture maintains that for sinners it is possible to resist , to grieve and to despise The Holy Spirit.

The Lord is good to all His creation His tender mercies are over all his works.
God sends rain and sunshine , food and clothing upon both Elect and Reprobate .
Also God sends commandments , warnings , invitations , and a genuine Offer of salvation upon Elect and Reprobate alike.......... truly God is good!

Reprobate men despise these gracious gifts that are meant to lead them to Repentance , and God is grieved and angry at being rejected.


The Gospel is not so much God being very good to the Elect ......

It is more like , God is VERY GOOD to all mankind , and He is SUPER ABUNDANTLY ETERNALLY 'IN MEASURABLY'
GOOD to The Elect!

GREETINGS CYGNUS

 

[akolouthein]

Thanks Cygnus . Let me see if I can "dumb this down" a little for myself to see if I understand it right. So basically because God is omnipotent He knows before we are born whether we will believe in Him but will still try to bring the reprobate to salvation? Does God actively choose who will receive salvation and who is damned?

 

[jonas3]

Since God has elected some to be saved does the Holy Spirit work in the reprobate at all? For example, I know that the Holy Spirit was at work in me for a long time and led me to belief in Christ. Does the Holy Spirit even bother with the reprobate at all? Does God try to lead them?

On the contrary to cygnus' answer, Scripture actually rejects the lie that an unregenerate person can be under the conviction of the Holy Spirit (Jn 14:17), since the Holy Spirit only leads people to Jesus Christ and His righteousness as the only ground of salvation (Jn 15:26, 16:13). To answer your question, the Holy Spirit does NOT AT ALL work in the reprobate. Certainly God is sovereign and has full control over all of His creation, including the reprobate, and God most certainly directs every single step the reprobate takes; however, the Holy Spirit is not involved.

No man can resist the motions of the Holy Spirit, and God does NOT show any love towards the reprobate. The blessings that the reprobate receive in this life only lead to their destruction (every single one of them). They are made to be destroyed, and everything God gives them only hardens them further. As it is written,

"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever" - Ps 92:7.

Vessels of wrath are fitted for destruction (Ro 9:22). Take for example what has been written of Judas, that wicked son of perdition,

"The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born." - Mat 26:24.

Did the blessings that Judas received in his life benefit him? Was it a blessing for him to be taught at the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Keep in mind that Christians are to love their enemies, but loving their enemy's means that they don't speak peace to them. I don't love my enemies by telling them they are regenerate and fit for the kingdom, when in fact they prove themselves to be wicked blasphemers. I would hate them if I told them that they should be at peace with God when they are currently lost. Christians are commanded to love (i.e. do good unto) all men and seek to live peaceably with all men (i.e. Christians never seek to harm anyone); however, is this kindness a blessing to the reprobate? It is written,

"17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." - Ro 12:17-21.

These loving acts were certainly not blessings to the reprobate, for they only increased their guilt towards God. God's people hate what God hates; therefore, they hate the false gospel of the unregenerate, as well as those who profess it; however, this in no way contradicts the command that Christians love their enemies. Christians do good unto their enemies, which includes telling them that they are unregenerate as well as praying for their enemies that God might save them (i.e. regenerate them). As it is written, "21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? 22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies." - Ps 139:21-22, and this "hatred" does no evil thing unto them.

God does not have a special salvific love towards His elect, and a different non-salvific love towards the reprobate. FYI, that is the definition of "common grace", which is a heresy. God is infinitely holy, righteous, and just; thus, He does not show grace or "love" at the expense of His holiness, righteousness, or justice. God only shows loves towards His elect through the work of Jesus Christ, and since the work of Jesus Christ is not universal in any sense; therefore, God does not show any love towards the non-elect reprobate. The so called blessings that fall upon the heads of the reprobate are only a curse onto them that cause them to flourish in order that they may be destroyed (Ps 92:7).

-jonas

 

[Jon_]

My real difficulty when people pull in Acts 7:51, they just assume that it means the Jews were resisting the Holy Spirit's attempt to influence them to repentance. There are two fundamental flaws with this view, though. (1) God the Holy Spirit is not resistable when he wills to work. (2) The idea that the Holy Spirit is trying to regenerate them is not even implied in the text.

No one that I have spoken to has ever been able to provide a valid argument that shows Acts 7:51 is inferring that the Holy Spirit's regenerating work can be resisted and indeed they cannot. But they continue to argue this way even though they haven't even a shred of evidence or the beginnings of a valid argument to support this view.

And I am not convinced that "resist" is even the best translation here. Thayer's Greek Lexicon says this about it:

G496

ἀντιπίπτω

antipiptō

Thayer Definition:

1) to fall upon, run against

2) to be adverse, oppose, strive against

Part of Speech: verb

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G473 and G4098 (including its alternate)

"Resist" isn't even mentioned here. In fact, Strong's even indicates that oppose is a better word:

G496

ἀντιπίπτω

antipiptō

an-tee-pip'-to

From G473 and G4098 (including its alternate); to oppose: - resist.

You will not that it lists resist last, this means that the word antipipto appears translated as "resist" in the KJV. But Strong clearly has the defintion as oppose. I think this is probably a better understanding of the word. Those who are uncirumcisied in heart oppose the Holy Spirit, not resist. Resist implies that they are somehow successfully defeating the motions of the Holy Spirit, which is impossible.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[cygnusx1]

On the contrary to cygnus' answer, Scripture actually rejects the lie that an unregenerate person can be under the conviction of the Holy Spirit (Jn 14:17), since the Holy Spirit only leads people to Jesus Christ and His righteousness as the only ground of salvation (Jn 15:26, 16:13). To answer your question, the Holy Spirit does NOT AT ALL work in the reprobate. Certainly God is sovereign and has full control over all of His creation, including the reprobate, and God most certainly directs every single step the reprobate takes; however, the Holy Spirit is not involved.

No man can resist the motions of the Holy Spirit, and God does NOT show any love towards the reprobate. The blessings that the reprobate receive in this life only lead to their destruction (every single one of them). They are made to be destroyed, and everything God gives them only hardens them further. As it is written,

"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever" - Ps 92:7.

Vessels of wrath are fitted for destruction (Ro 9:22). Take for example what has been written of Judas, that wicked son of perdition,

"The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born." - Mat 26:24.

Did the blessings that Judas received in his life benefit him? Was it a blessing for him to be taught at the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Keep in mind that Christians are to love their enemies, but loving their enemy's means that they don't speak peace to them. I don't love my enemies by telling them they are regenerate and fit for the kingdom, when in fact they prove themselves to be wicked blasphemers. I would hate them if I told them that they should be at peace with God when they are currently lost. Christians are commanded to love (i.e. do good unto) all men and seek to live peaceably with all men (i.e. Christians never seek to harm anyone); however, is this kindness a blessing to the reprobate? It is written,

"17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." - Ro 12:17-21.

These loving acts were certainly not blessings to the reprobate, for they only increased their guilt towards God. God's people hate what God hates; therefore, they hate the false gospel of the unregenerate, as well as those who profess it; however, this in no way contradicts the command that Christians love their enemies. Christians do good unto their enemies, which includes telling them that they are unregenerate as well as praying for their enemies that God might save them (i.e. regenerate them). As it is written, "21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? 22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies." - Ps 139:21-22, and this "hatred" does no evil thing unto them.

God does not have a special salvific love towards His elect, and a different non-salvific love towards the reprobate. FYI, that is the definition of "common grace", which is a heresy. God is infinitely holy, righteous, and just; thus, He does not show grace or "love" at the expense of His holiness, righteousness, or justice. God only shows loves towards His elect through the work of Jesus Christ, and since the work of Jesus Christ is not universal in any sense; therefore, God does not show any love towards the non-elect reprobate. The so called blessings that fall upon the heads of the reprobate are only a curse onto them that cause them to flourish in order that they may be destroyed (Ps 92:7).

-jonas

how sad it is for me to read this post ............

For a start everyone who is reading it cannot fail to spot the "non-stop " contradiction running through this entire post!

I will ask all readers of the above post to carefully weigh the words near the beginning ''God does NOT show any love towards the reprobate.''

Now compare those words , with these following statements ...........

''These loving acts were certainly not blessings to the reprobate ....."

''Did the blessings that Judas received in his life benefit him?''

''Christians do good unto their enemies, which includes telling them that they are unregenerate as well as praying for their enemies that God might save them ''

etc etc

I leave the reader to judge the stack of contradictions I have highlighted .

The problem with the H/Calvinist is that He is so possessed with the Outcome of an interaction between God and man , that he fails to pay sufficient attention to the reality and intensity of the 'history' prior to the outcome which does speak of the reality of the Good Gifts , Blessings , and "Loving acts" of God .
If we take the outcome of an event and work backwards we end with this distorted picture............ where God gives good gifts to men not from kindness and an incentive to repent (as scripture teaches) but as merely a means to damn men harder !!!!!!

Such is the view expressed through this post.

 

[cygnusx1]

My real difficulty when people pull in Acts 7:51, they just assume that it means the Jews were resisting the Holy Spirit's attempt to influence them to repentance. There are two fundamental flaws with this view, though. (1) God the Holy Spirit is not resistable when he wills to work. (2) The idea that the Holy Spirit is trying to regenerate them is not even implied in the text.

No one that I have spoken to has ever been able to provide a valid argument that shows Acts 7:51 is inferring that the Holy Spirit's regenerating work can be resisted and indeed they cannot. But they continue to argue this way even though they haven't even a shred of evidence or the beginnings of a valid argument to support this view.

And I am not convinced that "resist" is even the best translation here. Thayer's Greek Lexicon says this about it:


"Resist" isn't even mentioned here. In fact, Strong's even indicates that oppose is a better word:


You will not that it lists resist last, this means that the word antipipto appears translated as "resist" in the KJV. But Strong clearly has the defintion as oppose. I think this is probably a better understanding of the word. Those who are uncirumcisied in heart oppose the Holy Spirit, not resist. Resist implies that they are somehow successfully defeating the motions of the Holy Spirit, which is impossible.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
[/size]

Hi Jon,

You want to make a case to discredit the idea of ''resist'' and replace it with "oppose" ........... as if that makes any real difference.

I fail to see how ?

Context states that the Jews were stiffnecked and always resisted (or opposed ) the Holy Spirit .

I think it is a red herring to introduce the idea of "success" into the equation ......... for given that sinners do resist God , and that God also resists the proud , it is clear to me who is going to win : God every time no contest!

Also I have yet to understand how you come to a conclusion that The Holy Spirit being resisted (or opposed) means the Holy Spirit necessarily was attempting to regenerate them ?

There are many operations of The Holy Spirit , Regeneration is only one of them.

Just for the record , Regeneration cannot be resisted.

But obeying the Gospel message can!

 

[jonas3]

how sad it is for me to read this post ............

For a start everyone who is reading it cannot fail to spot the "non-stop " contradiction running through this entire post!

I will ask all readers of the above post to carefully weigh the words near the beginning ''God does NOT show any love towards the reprobate.''

Now compare those words , with these following statements ...........

''These loving acts were certainly not blessings to the reprobate ....."

''Did the blessings that Judas received in his life benefit him?''

''Christians do good unto their enemies, which includes telling them that they are unregenerate as well as praying for their enemies that God might save them ''

I'm sorry that my post made you sad, but it contains no contradictions. Is the apostle Paul putting forth a "non-stop contradiction" when he says,

"17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." - Ro 12:17-21.

Reprobates receives "good" things and enjoy themselves, and many live comfortable lives, and many do flourish. But the Scriptures say that these things are not blessings to them, but curses.

"11 And they say, How doth God know? and is there knowledge in the most High? 12 Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches." - Ps 73:11-12.

"32 For the froward is abomination to the LORD: but his secret is with the righteous. 33 The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just." - Pro 3:32-33.

It was a blessing for the apostles to be taught at the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ, but this blessing to them (i.e. the elect) was a curse to Judas Iscariot (i.e. the reprobate). There is no "non-stop contradiction". Jesus said it would have been better for him NOT TO HAVE BEEN BORN (Mat 26:24).

Take also for example the gospel, which is a sweet blessing to God's people, but is a curse to the reprobate that only hardens them further.

"11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." - Mark 4:11-12

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." - 1Cor 1:18

"14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. 15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: 16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?" - 2Cor 2:14-16

Furthermore, Jesus Christ said, "14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city" - Mat 10:14-15! Was it better for the reprobate that they heard the gospel preached? Was God blessing them by having the gospel preached to them, or was He cursing them? Jesus said, "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin." - Jn 15:22. The gospel being preached to the reprobate, is it a blessing or a curse?

...where God gives good gifts to men not from kindness and an incentive to repent (as scripture teaches) but as merely a means to damn men harder !!!!!!

God does not give "good gifts" to men as an "incentive to repent"!!! As if this "god" is leading people along just hoping that the "good things" he gives them will finally cause them to acquiesce and repent so that this "god" won't be disappointed. Furthermore, if Scripture does indeed teach this, do you have any Scripture to backup what you are saying?

-jonas

 

[cygnusx1]

I'm sorry that my post made you sad, but it contains no contradictions.

Hi jonas (I am interested in where you got that name )

Yes I have clearly shown that it did .

You stated at the outset that ''God does NOT show any love towards the reprobate.''


you then went onto say ;

''These loving acts were certainly not blessings to the reprobate ....."
here you are obviously assuming real loving acts otherwise your sentence makes no sense!
It would be saying , because the reprobate abuse , tread under foot and abuse blessings which are not real blessings because if they were they would not result in their destruction , therefore they were not real blessings .......... false logic!
For if they were not real blessings then they have sinned against what ? False blessings?
It is not the blessings that cause destruction , but the abuse and missuse of such.

You are looking at the abuse of real blessings and saying the outcome proves that they were not real blessings .
That is like saying if I am meant to be saved , I have no need to repent!
You are clearly confusing the end result with the process of being blessed and rejecting blessings.




''Did the blessings that Judas received in his life benefit him?''
here you are obviously assuming real blessings that Judas received , otherwise your sentence makes no sense!

''Christians do good unto their enemies, which includes telling them that they are unregenerate as well as praying for their enemies that God might save them ''

here you are obviously assuming that God might save some if we pray for our enemies , otherwise your sentence makes no sense!








Is the apostle Paul putting forth a "non-stop contradiction" when he says,

"17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." - Ro 12:17-21.

Reprobates receives "good" things and enjoy themselves, and many live comfortable lives, and many do flourish. But the Scriptures say that these things are not blessings to them, but curses.

"11 And they say, How doth God know? and is there knowledge in the most High? 12 Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches." - Ps 73:11-12.

"32 For the froward is abomination to the LORD: but his secret is with the righteous. 33 The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just." - Pro 3:32-33.

It was a blessing for the apostles to be taught at the feet of the Lord Jesus Christ, but this blessing to them (i.e. the elect) was a curse to Judas Iscariot (i.e. the reprobate). There is no "non-stop contradiction". Jesus said it would have been better for him NOT TO HAVE BEEN BORN (Mat 26:24).

Take also for example the gospel, which is a sweet blessing to God's people, but is a curse to the reprobate that only hardens them further.

"11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." - Mark 4:11-12

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." - 1Cor 1:18

"14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. 15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: 16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?" - 2Cor 2:14-16

Furthermore, Jesus Christ said, "14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city" - Mat 10:14-15! Was it better for the reprobate that they heard the gospel preached? Was God blessing them by having the gospel preached to them, or was He cursing them? Jesus said, "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin." - Jn 15:22. The gospel being preached to the reprobate, is it a blessing or a curse?
[/QUOTE]



As far as I can tell , using words such as "blessing" ''God's Love" "good Gifts" and "that God might save them" do have real meanings , they are not magic words which can mean merely an appearance of those things , or even worse the exact opposite of those things!

It is amazing that any Christian would believe that God acts underhandedly , pretending to do good , pretending to be kind , pretending to love , if all the time The Lord was just using these as cover for hate!

I say why do you think those who reject the Gospel , abuse God's gifts , act fooolishly when God is patient are any worse off than if they had NEVER had those gifts?

Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city"

Why is God angry with the wicked ?
and why is God especially angry with those who reject the Gospel ?

God does not give "good gifts" to men as an "incentive to repent"!!! As if this "god" is leading people along just hoping that the "good things" he gives them will finally cause them to acquiesce and repent so that this "god" won't be disappointed. Furthermore, if Scripture does indeed teach this, do you have any Scripture to backup what you are saying?

-jonas

Sure!

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Romans 2 :4-6

In summary :
I believe you are guilty of re-interpreting those "loving acts" of God unto the Reprobate , from the end result , ie, the reprobates abuse, not the acts themselves .

God gives a man a hundred talents (an act of love) the man buries those talents , (an act of folly) The Lord punishes the man .............. others presume God cannot have acted in love for look at the result!
hence some infer that God acted from hate , deliberately tricking the man , and acting towards him in wrath to create more wrath!

The truth is we trust God when He says ...........

Matt. 7:7-11
7 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

 

[akolouthein]

Ack! I didn't mean to start a debate . I do not claim to be very knowledgable as compared to you gentlemen but I'm thinking (maybe more with my heart and not with my head) that God loves all His children, that it pains our Lord when he must punish us in some way, and that He will not turn away any who call on His name. So, that leads me to believe this about double predestination: We can see by scripture that there are some that are elect and some that are reprobate. Is that the final result of the spiritual strugle of each person? What I do not think we see is the process in between. That God either works to bring that person to salvation or in His infinite wisdom knows that it is a fruitless effort. God has to know that a person is reprobate becase He can forsee all courses of action in that person's life and sees that none lead to belief correct?

I'm trying to wrap my mind around the idea of God and (to use an analogy) He has two bowls that are empty and a pile of names in the center of these two bowls written on paper. He draws a name , ponders, and says "saved", into the right hand bowl it goes. God draws another name , ponders, and says "damned", into the left hand bowl it goes. I tend to think that we are all born as a natural course of action. Since the fall of Adam and Eve , God knows each and ever person that will be born but because it is a natural course of reproduction I would not think God actively chooses to have a hand in each person's conception. So that idea would make the "why would God allow someone to be born that He knows will go to hell" idea fall through. Because God is omnipotent He can see what the outcome of each and ever person is to be. Or does God actively choose each person before they are born and save or damn them? If I say anything that offends, I apologize. I am not stating that is the way things are, just stating how my mind is trying to perceive the idea. I am looking for someone to explain so I can better understand.

 

[reformedfan]

God doesn't base His decision on who is the elect & who the unregenerate is on the individual, but on His will: He doesn't look ahead & decide some won't convert, so they're not the elect; yet others will, so they become the elect: this is Armin watering down of the doctrine & it's not what the Bible teaches. Election is based entirely on His good pleasure & divine will.

Abraham is a great example of this: God choose him to be the one that Christ would eventually come from. God didn't reveal this to him until he & his wife were well beyond child bearing age. Then God graciously enabled them to have a kid anyway, He chose them based on HIs own good pleasure, then He made happen what needed to happen in order for HIm to keep His word.

The elect, the ones that convert do so because God enables them to.

 

[akolouthein]

Thanks reformedfan! Right after I started asking some of these questions I started exploring www.monergism.com. What a resource! As I said I have not developed solid beliefs in these things , they are just stirring around in my mind. I'm actually reading some writings on what I had on my mind " that God can see into the future and know who will believe and in response He claims them as elect." But I'm seeing that is not the case. I'm seeing he foreknew the PEOPLE not their actions. I'm getting ready to delve into the "fairness of it all" which because I'm human, I think is a natural reaction. My knee-jerk reaction is to think " WHAT?! Well that just isnt fair!" So, I'm studying that right now. Anyone please feel free to add to the subject. Praise God for the fellowship here!

 

[reformedfan]

a better definition of unfair, i think, would have at the center of it a substituionary death by Christ for sinners. That was unfair! God can do what He wants, thankfully He wants to save some.

 

[akolouthein]

Is it in a human's nature to look at his mother , father, wife and say "What if God has not elected my loved one?" Now that stings a little. I'm reading that God does not elect some because it is all due to His purpose and will. I find myself doing the wrong thing by trying to analyze the mind of God and try to figure out what exactly is His purpose in possibly not electing a loved one who is a really good person but does not seem to grasp the gospel. Imagining my loved one burning in a lake of fire for eternity

 

[reformedfan]

yeah, that's a tough reality. Human nature being what it is doesn't help any but at least knowing the truth should help you have peace about it, ya know? If htey die in their sins, at least you won't hate yourself & feel you were somehow to blame for their not obeying the Gospel, ya know?

 

[akolouthein]

yea . I think when considering predestination you really tread into some "mystical waters". I mean we can never for be certain anyone other than ourselves is elect because we can only know our own hearts for sure. And according to what most say you are elect if you remain faithful to the very end of your life here on earth. We could "try" to judge someone and say "they are really hateful and just refuse to hear the gospel" and not long before dying God might choose to move in that person and bring them to faith. Just because someone is brought to faith at a young age does that make them any more elect than someone brought to faith at an old age? The point of this is I know I cannot give up and just say "well that person is too stuborn and will never believe." I mean we can never know for sure who is elect until we find ourselves in Heaven right? As humans I guess it is natural to try and say "hmm, wonder if Bob there is elect? He sure doesn't act like it" Well , its not our place to judge. On the flip side someone might be a regular church attendee , seem heartfelt and faithful and it turns out they never had faith! Scary

 

[JJB]

Our job is to keep pointing to Jesus. Those with ears will hear. And sometimes our pointer finger can get pretty tired! But we are called to keep pointing, tired or not. It's also not dependent on the results we see. Keep pointin' to the wonderful news of Jesus Christ. It may be our turn to have beautiful feet, so be prepared.

 

[akolouthein]

Thanks JJB for your words of encouragement

 

[reformedfan]

yeah, until they are dead, there is always hope they might jes' be the elect. Christ knew who the elect were & weren't, yet He told the Gospel to everyone He encountered.

 

[akolouthein]

I'm currently discussing T.U.L.I.P with some fellow brothers and sisters in the Lutheran forum because I currently attend a Lutheran church. Its already lining up to be a debate. I try to let people know that certain things make sense to me because of articles I'm reading and people here helping me out. The first response is "there is no biblical proof of T.U.L.I.P after Total depravity". You can find it here

http://www.christianforums.com/t2160011-calvin.html. I dont have the time to dig up scripture so I've just started quoting the articles that make sense to me