Is Genesis History?

MustardSeeed · May 14, 2017

Resha Caner said:
Sure, but does that change any minds?

It can

Usually people present what is convincing to themselves without ever understanding why other people hold different views.

I've never watched a documentary that didn't have a antithesis... it's about having an open mind so I wouldn't generalize

Resha Caner · May 14, 2017

MustardSeeed said:
I've never watched a documentary that didn't have a antithesis... it's about having an open mind so I wouldn't generalize

I wasn't being critical just to be critical. I've done the same thing myself many times, so I was just sharing from my experience. And I wasn't trying to generalize. The reactions do indeed vary all over the place, so if one is honestly "open-minded" that should be a strong signal that the message isn't really that convincing. As an engineer, if I don't get repeatable behavior from a machine, I consider my control algorithm to be poor.

One study I found fascinating was a school experiment. All kinds of problems had arisen when a school board mandated an evolution-only biology program. It got so bad that not only did students not want to take the course, but teachers didn't want to teach it - even those who supported evolution. So, the board came up with an idea where the teacher would step back and allow the students an open forum for 1 class period where everyone could express their views before getting into the prescribed curriculum. They interviewed the students afterward to see what impact the open forum had, and were shocked by the results.

For the majority, their opinion didn't change. But people did shift and in varying degrees. Some hard-core evolutionists became creationists. Some hard-core creationists became evolutionists. The moderates shifted in a variety of directions as well. For example, some moderate creationists became moderate evolutionists whereas other moderate creationists became hard-core creationists. There was no discernible pattern to it at all, and it is obvious those who wrote the paper were shocked. They thought the argument for evolution was so strong that they would see a definite trend toward supporting evolution. But the results were all over the place.

I find that fascinating, and it makes me ask, "Why?"

section9+1 · May 14, 2017

I believe the earth is young. I won't say 6000 years because I don't know, but it surely isn't a lot older. Faith to believe the bible stories is the kind of faith that is saving faith. Not that belief in the stories saves you, but the capacity for believing them is what's needed for real faith. You cannot apply evidence to someone and hope that it will save him. Even if the evidence convinces him, at best, he can only become a Deist and that's a long way from saving faith. I question the faith of those who call themselves Christians that's based on hard, convincing evidence and deny the fanciful bible narratives. That's not called saving faith. It's simply approving believable evidence.

dqhall · May 14, 2017

It is easier to memorize a few verses of Genesis than to gain expertise in advanced geophysics, radioisotope dating and rates of radioactive decay. While I believe God is real, I do not believe the Genesis time table of creation.

Resha Caner · May 14, 2017

section9+1 said:
I question the faith of those who call themselves Christians that's based on hard, convincing evidence and deny the fanciful bible narratives. That's not called saving faith. It's simply approving believable evidence.

I'm not going to question how or why anyone came to faith. My whole point in this thread has been that it's different for each person, and God knows that better than we do. However ...

section9+1 said:
Not that belief in the stories saves you, but the capacity for believing them is what's needed for real faith. You cannot apply evidence to someone and hope that it will save him. Even if the evidence convinces him, at best, he can only become a Deist and that's a long way from saving faith.

These are all excellent points.

section9+1 said:
I believe the earth is young. I won't say 6000 years because I don't know, but it surely isn't a lot older.

I'm in a similar place. I believe Genesis 1-2* is history, but expect the age of things falls in some unknowable space between 6000 and 13.8 billion.

- - -

*I find it curious that so much ink is spilled over 2 chapters that constitute only some roughly 4% of the book. Then about 66% is spent on all the patriarchs and a good 30% on one person alone - Joseph. Hmm. And Joseph is a set-up for the Passover - the sacrifice of the Lamb for Israel. I wonder what it is God is focusing on? Hmm.

S.O.J.I.A. · May 14, 2017

either genesis is history or the faith is history.

SnowyMacie · May 14, 2017

Genesis is history in the sense that it is based on historical events/people, but ultimately the event became legend and ultimately written down in scripture as allegories. We see this in non-Biblical history as well, for example King Arthur. Even more back then than with King Arthur's first historians, they were not as concerned with trying to get all of the facts correct, but the message and point of the story was what was important to them. I think the flood story is reflective of many flood stories from the ancient near-East as a result of the common floods that used to occur along the Tigris and Euphrates Rives, and likely there was one season that was much worse than normal. That doesn't change the message in the story at all about God's redemption and judgment. That's the same with the Exodus, Job, Ruth, David, etc.

There are others that are myth, like Genesis 1. Obviously, God created the world, but we know from science that it didn't happen in six days, but instead he created, and continues to create, over billions and millions of years. That doesn't change the message that God created this world and universe good, than mankind was made with a purpose and ultimately rebelled against God.

dxtrinc · May 14, 2017

A few thoughts if I may.

1) The Bible doesn't say the earth is 6000 years old. The Bible says that the earth was made in 6 days and Psalm 90 says that "a day 'IS LIKE' a thousand years". It is figuratuve language. It is not literal.

2) When the first 11 chapters of Genesis were written it was acient history to those who wrote it.

3) Who cares? No matter how old the earth is, Jesus came and died for my sins. That is the most important part of the Bible. That is the Gospel. Nothing else in the BIble is the Gospel. Only that Jesus came and died for us. So I find it a waste of time to get bogged down in these types of conversations.

Blessings

miamited · May 15, 2017

Resha Caner said:
Sure, but does that change any minds? Usually people present what is convincing to themselves without ever understanding why other people hold different views. They conflate "what is convincing to me" with "objective & scientific".

Hi RC,

Well, we don't any of us know at what place one's heart is at any given moment. Teachers stand in front of congregations every week and do the same thing that Mr. Tackett is doing. Taking a kernel of truth found in the Scriptures and expounding upon it and drawing, through explanation and evidence, that truth out that some in the congregation might come to know and understand. Are their efforts of no value?

Sure, we share on this board and come to find out that most people's minds are made up about the issue. However, there are thousands upon thousands of Christians out there and I'm sure that there are, among those several thousands, a few who, if they took the time to listen to a well presented argument for the truth, would believe it.

I think that when it comes to sharing the gospel or any truth of the Scriptures, we should never expect that thousands or hundreds are going to suddenly come to understand the truth. Jesus was clear that the road we are to be on is very narrow and that only a few find it. So, why would we expect that anyone's efforts would change the hearts of thousands. However, it might find one receptive heart and change that one.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

MustardSeeed · May 15, 2017

dqhall said:
It is easier to memorize a few verses of Genesis than to gain expertise in advanced geophysics, radioisotope dating and rates of radioactive decay. While I believe God is real, I do not believe the Genesis time table of creation.

You know what's even easier? Writing a comment without even looking into it ... I posted the link for that reason

The documentary was made by ...

Marcus Ross, PhD – Paleontologist
Andrew Snelling, PhD – Geologist
Kurt Wise, PhD – Paleontologist
Todd Wood, PhD – Biologist
Stuart Burgess, PhD – Mechanical Engineer (Bonus Features)
Douglas Kelly, PhD – Theologian (Bonus Features)
Larry Vardiman, PhD – Atmospheric Physicist (Bonus Features)

That's me copying and pasting. Super easy. Anyway this post was made for discussion ... not for "who can be the most ostentatious"

Do you have a "expertise" in advanced geophysics ? Lolollol

MustardSeeed · May 15, 2017

dxtrinc said:
A few thoughts if I may.

1) The Bible doesn't say the earth is 6000 years old. The Bible says that the earth was made in 6 days and Psalm 90 says that "a day 'IS LIKE' a thousand years". It is figuratuve language. It is not literal.

2) When the first 11 chapters of Genesis were written it was acient history to those who wrote it.

3) Who cares? No matter how old the earth is, Jesus came and died for my sins. That is the most important part of the Bible. That is the Gospel. Nothing else in the BIble is the Gospel. Only that Jesus came and died for us. So I find it a waste of time to get bogged down in these types of conversations.

Blessings

I agree with you. Especially with #3. Just wanted to see people's thoughts

Resha Caner · May 15, 2017

miamited said:
Are their efforts of no value?

Possibly. I didn't make my comment to press people to give up, but rather to ask them to consider their methods. One can always make the "if I change one heart" argument or the "you can't handle the truth" argument ... but I happen to have a heart for all the people I see walking away from churches shaking their heads at some of the silly arguments that are being made.

Resha Caner · May 15, 2017

dxtrinc said:
Who cares? No matter how old the earth is, Jesus came and died for my sins. That is the most important part of the Bible. That is the Gospel. Nothing else in the BIble is the Gospel. Only that Jesus came and died for us. So I find it a waste of time to get bogged down in these types of conversations.

MustardSeeed said:
I agree with you. Especially with #3. Just wanted to see people's thoughts

I agree with the sentiment of #3, so I wasn't going to be picky about some of the details. But, it is unwise to dismiss any part of the Bible as unimportant. It all impacts the Gospel message. And while some parts of the Bible are figurative, that doesn't make all of the Bible figurative.

MustardSeeed · May 15, 2017

Resha Caner said:
I agree with the sentiment of #3, so I wasn't going to be picky about some of the details. But, it is unwise to dismiss any part of the Bible as unimportant. It all impacts the Gospel message. And while some parts of the Bible are figurative, that doesn't make all of the Bible figurative.

Agreed! The Bible is the infalliable word of God. None of it should be dismissed.

joshua 1 9 · May 16, 2017

miamited said:
the universe will be rolled up like scroll.

There is an interesting program on Nova called "The Origami Revolution". This would be consistent with the idea that the universe unfolded and that it could be rolled back up again.

miamited · May 16, 2017

joshua 1 9 said:
There is an interesting program on Nova called "The Origami Revolution". This would be consistent with the idea that the universe unfolded and that it could be rolled back up again.

Hi joshua,

Well, I'm not sure that God means to infer that it would actually 'roll' up. It's a simile and the use of simile is to take something that is explainable that people are fairly familiar with to explain something that is not explainable that people are not particularly familiar with. There aren't a lot of things on this earth that would have been understood by people that just appear and disappear. A scroll would be something that I think people of that day would have understood as being laid out so that you can read all the text, but then, it is quickly rolled up and everything contained in the scroll has now disappeared to the eye.

However, the point is merely that the universe, it seems according to the Scriptures, is going to disappear about as fast as it came to appear. But I'm fine with however, the reality of the event actually comes to pass.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

joshua 1 9 · May 18, 2017

miamited said:
Hi joshua,

Well, I'm not sure that God means to infer that it would actually 'roll' up. It's a simile and the use of simile is to take something that is explainable that people are fairly familiar with to explain something that is not explainable that people are not particularly familiar with. There aren't a lot of things on this earth that would have been understood by people that just appear and disappear. A scroll would be something that I think people of that day would have understood as being laid out so that you can read all the text, but then, it is quickly rolled up and everything contained in the scroll has now disappeared to the eye.

However, the point is merely that the universe, it seems according to the Scriptures, is going to disappear about as fast as it came to appear. But I'm fine with however, the reality of the event actually comes to pass.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

My son is a freshmen in college and he already had a good understanding of the dimensions of the universe. According to string theory there are at least 10 dimensions yet if you only have one point then you have three dimensions. The question is how can a 10 dimensional universe roll up as if it were only two dimensional? You would have to eliminate space and time. People talk about an expanding and a collapsing universe. The universe maybe expanding now but in the end everything will all come back together again.

RickG · May 23, 2017

MustardSeeed said:
Have you seen this new documentary? If you have what are your thoughts and opinions? I haven't bought it yet but I was just considering maybe someone here has watched it

If you haven't watched it ... what do you think of the trailer???

Is Genesis History? - A compelling new documentary.

I stopped at the 46 sec. mark where the statement was made that most geologists have jettisoned the idea that the Grand Canyon formed over tens of millions of years. That statement is simply not true.

Is Genesis History?

Ambivert

Expert Fool

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Expert Fool

Dynamic UNO

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Ted

Ambivert

Ambivert

Expert Fool

Expert Fool

Ambivert

Well-Known Member

Ted

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency