Is free will real?

Billy UK · Dec 28, 2019

Jeremiah 19:5 (KJV)

5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Clearly we see that evil things happen that God did not predestine to happen .

Kaon · Dec 28, 2019

holo said:
The concept of free will popped up in a discussion I have with @Sanoy. I think it should have its own thread to keep things a little tidy.

Is free will real? Can it be real, given what we know about natural laws? Is it truly possible, philosophically speaking?

There are different conceptions of what free will means. What I mean by it is something like this: the ability to make a choice (or think of something) without that choice being determined by something else. For example, you can use your will to choose pizza over tacos, but is it a free choice? Do you pick one over the other for no reason? Or is it in fact determined by, say, that you just don't happen to like the taste of one of them (which obviously isn't something you freely chose)?

What would be an example of truly free will being exercised?

(Posted in this subforum because it has implications for how we think about morality.)

Only holy created entities have "free will," and they abdicate 100% of their will to the Most High - which is what makes them Holy.

So, no one has free will. We have a delusion of choice, and a limitation on our response to stimuli in our lives. Our "freedom" comes from the ability to reason a spiritual alignment within ourselves during our lives.

Do we hit the person out of spite and malice, or do we turn the other cheek?

Do we lust after what our brother has, or do we give thanks for what we alread have?

That is the extent of our freedom of will.

Robban · Dec 28, 2019

holo said:
The concept of free will popped up in a discussion I have with @Sanoy. I think it should have its own thread to keep things a little tidy.

Is free will real? Can it be real, given what we know about natural laws? Is it truly possible, philosophically speaking?

There are different conceptions of what free will means. What I mean by it is something like this: the ability to make a choice (or think of something) without that choice being determined by something else. For example, you can use your will to choose pizza over tacos, but is it a free choice? Do you pick one over the other for no reason? Or is it in fact determined by, say, that you just don't happen to like the taste of one of them (which obviously isn't something you freely chose)?

What would be an example of truly free will being exercised?

(Posted in this subforum because it has implications for how we think about morality.)

As a starting point, Genesis 1:27.

Suggests to me the human is the only species that was created in His image.

In as much as we have been endowed with free will, an ability to reason and a sense of morality.

Freedom of choice may not be so free though.

Sometimes it may seem there is nothing to choose from.

Kylie · Dec 28, 2019

Billy UK said:
Jeremiah 19:5 (KJV)

5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Clearly we see that evil things happen that God did not predestine to happen .

How can anything be predestined if there can be non-predestined events?

I mean, if it is predestined for Person A to marry Person B, what's to stop Person B from being killed in one of these non-predestined events?

Robban · Dec 29, 2019

Billy UK said:
Jeremiah 19:5 (KJV)

5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Clearly we see that evil things happen that God did not predestine to happen .

Gen 1:26,
"Let us make man in our image, in our likeness........"

Silence, no answer.

Gen 1:27,
So He made man in His own image.

Only by Him knowing Himself can He know us.

There is nothing that escapes His knowledge.

Billy UK · Dec 29, 2019

Kylie said:
How can anything be predestined if there can be non-predestined events?

I mean, if it is predestined for Person A to marry Person B, what's to stop Person B from being killed in one of these non-predestined events?

I believe in predestination and also believe in free will in that mankind has the power of choice. The birth of Jesus is clearly an example of predestination.

Kylie · Dec 29, 2019

Billy UK said:
I believe in predestination and also believe in free will in that mankind has the power of choice. The birth of Jesus is clearly an example of predestination.

So going back to my example...

If Person A and Person B are destined to marry, what's to stop someone using their free will to kill Person B before that happens?

Billy UK · Dec 29, 2019

Kylie said:
So going back to my example...

If Person A and Person B are destined to marry, what's to stop someone using their free will to kill Person B before that happens?

Good comes forth from the influence of God and his kingdom and evil comes forth from the influence of Satan and his kingdom. Choice is observable in the element of the human conscience in which we decide to choose to do either good or evil through the knowledge of good and evil which we are all exposed to . Good and evil are spiritual influences which we as humans are influenced by which God has ultimate power over. Therefore if God has predestined person A to meet person B for their good I believe he would out maneuver the spiritual forces of darkness to enable them to meet and choose to marry. By the way this is what I believe and don't pretend to know everything.

I will ask you though as an Atheist if someone was to beat an old lady to death in front of you how would you feel about that ?

Kylie · Dec 29, 2019

Billy UK said:
Good comes forth from the influence of God and his kingdom and evil comes forth from the influence of Satan and his kingdom. Choice is observable in the element of the human conscience in which we decide to choose to do either good or evil through the knowledge of good and evil which we are all exposed to . Good and evil are spiritual influences which we as humans are influenced by which God has ultimate power over. Therefore if God has predestined person A to meet person B for their good I believe he would out maneuver the spiritual forces of darkness to enable them to meet and choose to marry. By the way this is what I believe and don't pretend to know everything.

So you are saying the wanna-be killer is predestined to never kill Person B before the marriage?

I will ask you though as an Atheist if someone was to beat an old lady to death in front of you how would you feel about that ?

Are you serious? How do you think I would feel?

Billy UK · Dec 29, 2019

Kylie said:
So you are saying the wanna-be killer is predestined to never kill Person B before the marriage?

I believe the wanna be killer would have been being influenced by Satan and the forces of darkness. God will have been convicting that wanna be killer in their conscience to not do such a thing the same way you would be it seems convicted to not kill or think its ok for an old lady to be beaten to death. If you went outside to do that now could you stop that conviction or choose to turn it off in the future if you ever choose to do something wrong ?

God in his will predestines people for good works but many people reject and choose evil while their conscience is convicting them of the right way which they ignore . Despite all of this God will outmanuver the forces of darkness to bring about his plan for the people who he knows in advance will choose his way.

Scripture even says that he is long-suffering on vessels of wrath but they continue to choose evil nevertheless he still tries to reach them in their conscience to draw them back.

Romans 9:22 (KJV)

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Everything you choose evil you are fitting yourself more to its nature similar to how when you watch porn it changes the matter of the brain which has been observed in tests.

Kylie · Dec 29, 2019

Billy UK said:
I believe the wanna be killer would have been being influenced by Satan and the forces of darkness. God will have been convicting that wanna be killer in their conscience to not do such a thing the same way you would be it seems convicted to not kill or think its ok for an old lady to be beaten to death. If you went outside to do that now could you stop that conviction or choose to turn it off in the future if you ever choose to do something wrong ?

God in his will predestines people for good works but many people reject and choose evil while their conscience is convicting them of the right way which they ignore . Despite all of this God will outmanuver the forces of darkness to bring about his plan for the people who he knows in advance will choose his way.

Scripture even says that he is long-suffering on vessels of wrath but they continue to choose evil nevertheless he still tries to reach them in their conscience to draw them back.

Romans 9:22 (KJV)

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Everything you choose evil you are fitting yourself more to its nature similar to how when you watch porn it changes the matter of the brain which has been observed in tests.

You seem to be unsure of what predestined means.

If something is predestined, it's gonna happen. There's no way out of it.

Robban · Dec 29, 2019

Kylie said:
You seem to be unsure of what predestined means.

If something is predestined, it's gonna happen. There's no way out of it.

Like when a heavenly decree is sent out there is no turning it back.

There is no returning with "mission unaccomplished"

Kylie · Dec 29, 2019

Robban said:
Like when a heavenly decree is sent out there is no turning it back.

There is no returning with "mission unaccomplished"

So the killer is predestined to not kill Person B. So, this isn't a situation of free choice at all, is it? It's yet another predestined situation.

That's the trouble - predestination is an all or nothing affair. If some things are predestined, but others aren't, then one of the non-predestined things could remove a key component of one of the predestined things. The only way to avoid it is to claim that EVERYTHING is predestined.

Robban · Dec 29, 2019

Kylie said:
So the killer is predestined to not kill Person B. So, this isn't a situation of free choice at all, is it? It's yet another predestined situation.

That's the trouble - predestination is an all or nothing affair. If some things are predestined, but others aren't, then one of the non-predestined things could remove a key component of one of the predestined things. The only way to avoid it is to claim that EVERYTHING is predestined.

The first part of your post I have no comment.

The second part.
To say all is predestined is like saying "Que sera sera"
what will be will be".

But it does not have to be so,
one can plead for divine intervention,

But there are instances where that does not help,

Reuben forfeited his firstborn rights.
Esau forfeited his firstborn rights.

In the case of Moses,

The Pentateuch is written in third person.

Moses would not have written about himself in third person.

Moses could not have composed the last eight verses
describing his passing.

So Moses did not compose the Torah.

G-d composed it, Moses just wrote it down.

He writes about his own passing from this world.

As the Talmud tells us, "G-d dictated and Moses wrote with tears."

So beforehand decided maybe.

In a way does not sound so harsh,

I have not the concentration at the moment.

holo · Dec 29, 2019

Billy UK said:
Free will is the power of choice which evidently exists and is observable in faculty of the conscience in which we choose the path to walk down whether good or evil.

Making choices isn't the same thing as having a free will though. You don't make choices out of thin air, there will inevitably be something that determines what choice you make. You could be forced, have a particular set of genes, a certain upbringing, biological inclinations etc. It's practically impossible to predict much of the time, but there's no escaping that your choices are ultimately the result of things that aren't under your control. Basically, cause and effect.

Kylie · Dec 29, 2019

Robban said:
The first part of your post I have no comment.

The second part.
To say all is predestined is like saying "Que sera sera"
what will be will be".

But it does not have to be so,
one can plead for divine intervention,

But there are instances where that does not help,

Reuben forfeited his firstborn rights.
Esau forfeited his firstborn rights.

In the case of Moses,

The Pentateuch is written in third person.

Moses would not have written about himself in third person.

Moses could not have composed the last eight verses
describing his passing.

So Moses did not compose the Torah.

G-d composed it, Moses just wrote it down.

He writes about his own passing from this world.

As the Talmud tells us, "G-d dictated and Moses wrote with tears."

So beforehand decided maybe.

In a way does not sound so harsh,

I have not the concentration at the moment.

I don't think you have actually addressed the issue that I made.

If only some events are predestined, those events have to occur no matter what.

That means that none of the non-predestined events can result in anything that would disrupt the predestined events.

That means the non-predestined events are predestined to not interrupt the predestined events.

Which means the non-predestined events are predestined.

This leads us to a contradiction. An event can not be both predestined and non-predestined at the same time. Thus, it is impossible for some events to be predestined while others are not. The only conclusion is that either no events at all are predestined, or everything is predestined.

Strathos · Dec 29, 2019

Kylie said:
I don't think you have actually addressed the issue that I made.

If only some events are predestined, those events have to occur no matter what.

That means that none of the non-predestined events can result in anything that would disrupt the predestined events.

That means the non-predestined events are predestined to not interrupt the predestined events.

Which means the non-predestined events are predestined.

This leads us to a contradiction. An event can not be both predestined and non-predestined at the same time. Thus, it is impossible for some events to be predestined while others are not. The only conclusion is that either no events at all are predestined, or everything is predestined.

That doesn't logically follow.

Say that it's predestined for me to eat a sandwich 1 hour from now.

That doesn't have any bearing on what I do before that. I could take a nap, watch a video, play a game, or do anything else, as long as I end up eating that sandwich in an hour.

Kylie · Dec 29, 2019

Strathos said:
That doesn't logically follow.

Say that it's predestined for me to eat a sandwich 1 hour from now.

That doesn't have any bearing on what I do before that. I could take a nap, watch a video, play a game, or do anything else, as long as I end up eating that sandwich in an hour.

Could you kill yourself? Could someone break into your house and kill you? Could you step out in front of a truck and be taken to hospital in an induced coma? Those things would prevent you from eating the sandwich. If you were predestined to eat the sandwich, then you must also be predestined to avoid all of those things. So you being predestined to eat the sandwich DOES have a bearing on what you do before then. It requires you to be predestined to avoid anything that would leave you in a state unable to do what you were predestined to do. You can't say that in the intervening hour between now and the time you eat the sandwich predestination plays no part in your life.

Strathos · Dec 30, 2019

Kylie said:
Could you kill yourself? Could someone break into your house and kill you? Could you step out in front of a truck and be taken to hospital in an induced coma? Those things would prevent you from eating the sandwich. If you were predestined to eat the sandwich, then you must also be predestined to avoid all of those things. So you being predestined to eat the sandwich DOES have a bearing on what you do before then. It requires you to be predestined to avoid anything that would leave you in a state unable to do what you were predestined to do. You can't say that in the intervening hour between now and the time you eat the sandwich predestination plays no part in your life.

It gives some constraints, but also a lot of freedom.

Robban · Dec 30, 2019

Kylie said:
I don't think you have actually addressed the issue that I made.

If only some events are predestined, those events have to occur no matter what.

That means that none of the non-predestined events can result in anything that would disrupt the predestined events.

That means the non-predestined events are predestined to not interrupt the predestined events.

Which means the non-predestined events are predestined.

This leads us to a contradiction. An event can not be both predestined and non-predestined at the same time. Thus, it is impossible for some events to be predestined while others are not. The only conclusion is that either no events at all are predestined, or everything is predestined.

If taken to the extreme it makes for a very cold world-
no repentence, no forgiveness needed, it was all beforehand programmed.

The future is not for us to know.

We like to have control and think often we have control
until something unexpected happens.

So we can choose to either let us be guided on the path we should wander or left outside in the cold.

In that sense our fate is predestined.
We have been warned.

Is free will real?

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