Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Most Christian's give a defense for Christianity based on their faith. They try to convince others based on their own inner, private subjective experience. But this isn't the best way to defend the faith.Part of the Christian religion is based on faith, and another part on evidence & reason then?
Even if and when you think those things should be considered, it's probably just not going to get you anywhere, "at that time", it may take things more objective at first...Most Christian's give a defense for Christianity based on their faith. They try to convince others based on their own inner, private subjective experience. But this isn't the best way to defend the faith.
Part of the Christian religion is based on faith, and another part on evidence & reason then?
Can faith be rationally defended? If one engages in rational defense, does it not mean that faith is insufficient?
Egads, Cloudy! Whoever would do such a horrid thing as that!I have heard some Christians argue that if God made things too obvious then humans would be deprived of the opportunity to take a leap of faith and gamble on Christianity - as though that leap of faith is a way to please God or distinguish the elect from the non-elect or something.
This isn't quite an equitable analogy, really, Cloudy. The reason I say this is that, as a parent myself, I'll admit that I've wanted to raise my child with the best possible educational attainments I thought were possible in ALL aspects of life, including those of involving religious ideology.Now consider childhood indoctrination. A child subjected to indoctrination by parents and culture is made to think that Christianity is much more plausible and sensible than it would seem to outsiders. This deprives the child of the opportunity to take that leap of faith and gamble on Christianity in the same way.
.........I think we all think this today to various degrees, Cloudy. But then, we have to take into account that the Bible offered the Jewish people books of meaning that they continued to relate with, even well into the 1st century, books like Job and Ecclesiastes which express figures who suffered existential angst not unlike we do today.I was also thinking about the possibility that Christianity is true. What might have made a tiny bit of sense to a first century Jew doesn't resonate with modern people at all. If Christianity is actually true then I would have to say "is this the best you could do, God?"
The problem I see is that very few children are educated sufficiently to balance the childhood indoctrination of sitting in a pew at a young age listening to sermons or singing hymns and being told that a cup of wine is now the blood of Christ. Children often believe in Santa Claus in a sleigh pulled by flying reindeer simply because their parents tell them. Things we believe from childhood become a part of our psyche at a very deep level and are not easily changed. We learn our values from childhood mostly, and many of those values come from watching parents trying to be good Christians.The trick here, too, is to realize that the philosophically decisive acts of recommended by Kierkegaard and Pascal are to be done AFTER one becomes aware of at least a reasonable modicum of information about life, ethics, competing religious frameworks, as well as of evaluations about the state of religious belief versus disbelief. Otherwise, one can't decide to jump or wager. Without the counterpoints, there would be little or nothing to spring against to make the "religious jump"; and there would be no alternative possibilities to come into play when making the Wager.
Yep, but I guess there are a lot of other sources of wisdom outside the Bible. A Christian might put these few Jewish wisdom books on a pedestal and neglect other books of wisdom. IDK.........I think we all think this today to various degrees, Cloudy. But then, we have to take into account that the Bible offered the Jewish people books of meaning that they continued to relate with, even well into the 1st century, books like Job and Ecclesiastes which express figures who suffered existential angst not unlike we do today.
... so, by the pedagogical formula you're intuiting here, it seems that something like teaching our children through rote lessons anything----even the concept of 1 + 1 = 2----without competing voices in the mix to tell them otherwise, isn't a good thing.The problem I see is that very few children are educated sufficiently to balance the childhood indoctrination of sitting in a pew at a young age listening to sermons or singing hymns and being told that a cup of wine is now the blood of Christ. Children often believe in Santa Claus in a sleigh pulled by flying reindeer simply because their parents tell them. Things we believe from childhood become a part of our psyche at a very deep level and are not easily changed. We learn our values from childhood mostly, and many of those values come from watching parents trying to be good Christians.
Are you sure atheistic children who are raised in atheistic households are 'escaping' indoctrination altogether? Is this the case in China? Is this a 'good' thing? I don't see how it is.In atheist forums there is a category called "non-theist" which is a sub-category of "atheist". These are the people who were raised in atheist families and escaped indoctrination. Usually non-theists are much more tolerant of religion than atheist converts such as ex-Christians. So it DOES make a difference whether a person is exposed to religion as a child.
I'm sure they could, but there is no guarantee that any Christian WILL ignore all of the other competing voices in the world.....................................and there's no guarantee that what the Jewish people have handed off to us in regard to Jesus ISN'T somehow the most cogent religious insight that exists.Yep, but I guess there are a lot of other sources of wisdom outside the Bible. A Christian might put these few Jewish wisdom books on a pedestal and neglect other books of wisdom. IDK
I'm sure you will agree that we have more confidence that 1+1=2 than we have that Jesus even existed. I would say there is a 90% chance that the historic Jesus of Nazareth existed (although probably not like portrayed in the gospels). Maybe I should reserve some tiny sliver of doubt about 1+1=2, but as a practical matter I don't have any doubt.... so, by the pedagogical formula you're intuiting here, it seems that something like teaching our children through rote lessons anything----even the concept of 1 + 1 = 2----without competing voices in the mix to tell them otherwise, isn't a good thing.
Proof not only of Santa but of Rudolph tooI believed ardently in Santa because not only did my parents tell me that Santa was on his way each Christmas eve, but at the age of 3(?), I woke in the middle of the night, and while all was silent and still, I heard the faint jingle of a jingel-bell. And I looked out my window to see what was the matter, and what to my wondering eyes did appear, but a little red dot in the sky, flying along on a night that was distinctly clear
No, they are only escaping religious indoctrination. I'm thinking of a Gilligan's Island episode where they made a musical Hamlet "Neither are borrower nor a lender be. Do not forget stay out of debt. Think twice and take this good advice from me..." Indoctrination is part of parenting.Are you sure atheistic children who are raised in atheistic households are 'escaping' indoctrination altogether? Is this the case in China? Is this a 'good' thing? I don't see how it is.
Is your depleted bank account compatible with your immense apologetics & philosophy library lol?no. It just means that faith comes as a response to the confluence of all that God decides to provide to any one individual ...
Is your depleted bank account compatible with your immense apologetics & philosophy library lol?
If you've received that insight, then you had a personal experience that others might not have had. Therefore, isn't apologetics useless in trying to reach others, if they haven't had that same personal, insightful experience?Ok. 2 Cor 5:7 plays into what I'm saying because in the context in which this verse is situated, we understand from what Paul says that while we are alive we do not have direct, physical access to Jesus without His special revelation, but we do have the ministry of the Holy Spirit who gives us 'insight' into the truth of the Gospel of Christ. So, there is both a verbal, textual component that informs us and by which we active our minds toward having faith ALONG WITH AND IN CONJUNCTION WITH the spiritual component (or enlightenment) that is provided by the Spirit.
Does this statement suggest that everyone must accept the same degree of evidence and reason?It’s the evidence and reason that produce the faith that we then rely on to maintain our walk with God.
What is proof for one, might only be evidence to others.Faith is very compatible with apologetics. There are three kinds of apologetics:
1. Proof. This consists in supplying a positive "reason for the hope we have" within us. The Bible itself tells us we ought to do this.
2. Defense. This consists in defending the Christian faith from unbelieving objections. This can be helpful to silence unbelievers but also to defend and strengthen the faith of believers.
3. Offense. This consists in showing the inadequacies of non-Christian thought. This can be helpful in persuading non-Christians to consider Christian faith and also to strengthen the faith of believers.
...yes, that's a good point!If you've received that insight, then you had a personal experience that others might not have had.
That's an excellent question, ananda!Therefore, isn't apologetics useless in trying to reach others, if they haven't had that same personal, insightful experience?
Does this statement suggest that everyone must accept the same degree of evidence and reason?
No way! It’s all over the map what does it for different peopleDoes this statement suggest that everyone must accept the same degree of evidence and reason?
Is your depleted bank account compatible with your immense apologetics & philosophy library lol?
Can faith be rationally defended? If one engages in rational defense, does it not mean that faith is insufficient?
Can faith be rationally defended? If one engages in rational defense, does it not mean that faith is insufficient?
So what is the best way to defend the faith?Most Christian's give a defense for Christianity based on their faith. They try to convince others based on their own inner, private subjective experience. But this isn't the best way to defend the faith.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?