Bible Highlighter said:
I can prove that to you right now.
Do you accept ALL the words in
2 Thessalonians 2:10?
“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” (
2 Thessalonians 2:10).
It says that those who perish are perishing because THEY received not the love of the truth... that they MIGHT BE SAVED. In Calvinism, there is no MIGHT BE SAVED. Yet, my Bible says it right in
2 Thessalonians 2:10. This verse alone should be enough for you and or anyone with basic reading skills to abandon the illogical belief of Calvinism. But beliefs that have been held on to for so long can be hard to let go of.
If you insist, I’ll go with you one more time with this. There are several verses that are very plain that Calvinists could quote too. Read the whole passage. It doesn’t take long to get to 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which says God “has chosen you from the beginning for salvation”. It says it very plainly
First, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 is talking about how the gospel calls us to... God has chosen us to salvation THROUGH the Sanctification of the Spirit (Holy living), and a belief of the truth.
“...God hath from the beginning
chosen you to salvation through
sanctification of the Spirit
and belief of the truth:
Whereunto he called you by our gospel,...”
(2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).
Just look at the context and it proves that
Sanctification of the Spirit is in reference to holy living. Verse 12 gives us the polar opposite of what 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says. It states:
“That they all might be damned who believed not the truth,
but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
(2 Thessalonians 2:12).
#1. Believed not the truth (vs. 12) (is pollar opposite of): Belief of the truth (vs. 13).
#2. Pleasure in unrighteousness (vs. 12) (is pollar opposite of): Sanctification of the Spirit (vs. 13).
Verse 16-17 also confirms this, as well. It states:
“...and hath given us everlasting consolation
and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts,
and stablish you in every good word and work.”
(1 Thessalonians 2:16-17).
#1. Good hope through grace (vs. 16) = Belief of the truth (vs. 13).
#2. Every good word and work (vs. 17) = Sanctification of the Spirit (vs. 13).
Second, Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve? And
yet one of you is a devil.” (John 6:70). So just because Jesus chose Judas, does not mean Judas was saved in the end. Judas fell by his transgression (Acts of the Apostles 1:25). In fact, Judas being among the twelve was at one point in time a sheep.
“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...” (Matthew 10:5).
“Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves.” (Matthew 10:16).
For examples: It's like coach Rick choosing Bob for the football team. It does not mean Bob is going to win the game just because he was chosen to be on the team by the coach.
I wanted to stress the importance that God has chosen us to live a holy life. But that does not mean we will live a holy life. We have to fight the good fight of faith as a part laying hold on eternal life.
“Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.” (1 Timothy 6:12).
Three, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not undo what 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says.
2 Thessalonians 2:10 still says that the reason why those who perish are perishing is because THEY received not the love of the truth, that they MIGHT BE SAVED. This truth is not explained away in verse 13 (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
Bible Highlighter said:
Yes, you are ignoring them. You have not figured out a rational or logical way to explain them.
You said:
No I’m not. You’re picking up on certain things I’m saying and ignoring the calls for unity. You should study Whitefield and Wesley. It has nothing to do with not having logic and I don’t have to explain Calvinism to you on some silly thread on the internet. You have clearly communicated that you know what it is. I told you I don’t have a problem with disagreeing, and yet you keep pushing the issue toward me, seemingly wanting me to take up arms and argue. I don’t find it profitable- not the same as ignoring.
Again, don't do it for me, but do it to help your brethren. Are you here to help others know the Bible better? If so, it has nothing to do with reaching me, but it has to do with helping your fellow brother or sister who is looking to defend Calvinism. But you said, I quote: “I don’t have to explain Calvinism to you on some silly thread on the internet.” This lets me know that you think this thread is silly, and that your efforts here will not help anyone (even if you did provide a good answer to defend your belief). I beg to differ because I have did searches on the internet on a particular Bible topic looking for more understanding and I have read through other Christian forums to see if they could help out. So again, don't do it for me, do it to help your fellow Calvinist.
Bible Highlighter said:
Right, I don't like Calvinism because it's not in the Bible and it smears the good character of GOD.
But do not refuse to engage on my account. Surely you must realize that other readers must come across this thread reading and looking for help to defend the faith. Why not help them? So don't do it for me, but do it to help your fellow brethren. But I know why you don't do that. It's because Calvinism is not true. Only a isolated surface reading of Romans 9 can appear to sound like Calvinism. The rest of the Bible does not really sound like Calvinism in the slightest.
You said:
Thank you for making my point for me. First of all, it doesn’t do anyone any good to tell someone why they are saying something/or doing something. Please don’t tell me my motives for doing things. I’m not ignoring anything because “Calvinism isn’t true”. That’s absurd. We probably have the same Bible and a whole lot of it sounds reformed to me. So I guess your right and I’m wrong. Please brother. I would rather Christians read the Bible on their own as opposed to coming to this thread and seeing brothers and sisters take each out of context and bicker.
First, you may not consciously be aware that Calvinism is not true, but deep down on a subconscious level you know it is not true. Yet, you believe it anyways because it is what you desire to be true.
Second, your not answering my points with a logical rebuttal is indeed ignoring my points. It would be like a person in whom you tell that they should stand up who is sitting, and yet they say they can hear you, but they refuse to stand up. While they may hear what you are saying, they are ignoring your order to stand up. This is what I believe you are doing with my points. Your refusal to answer my points shows that you are indeed ignoring them. But if you told me that you will get back to me with an answer, then that would be another story. Yes, you may believe you have a better answer, but by not providing that answer it is ignoring my points publicly here on the forums.
Bible Highlighter said:
Their is mental knowledge and being intelligent on certain things in life, but that does not mean a person's moral compass is operating correctly whereby they have wisdom and a proper understanding on biblical love, and justice. God does not punish people beyond what they are not capable of doing. Again, it's like kicking a dog who has an uncontrollable pooping problem because it is sick. It's just not fair justice or good to do such a thing. Even unbelievers can see that a master kicking it's dog for being sick is cruel and mean, and not loving.
You said:
Weird human reasoning again. God punished the Israelites for not being able to keep the whole Law and yet that’s what He required. So there’s that.
Not sure how this statement helps you. Does Calvinistic Election exist during this time period? Did God choose the Israelite to Election? If so, then it appears they failed to be Elected by God because they disobeyed Him.
Bible Highlighter said:
Uh, your answer really does not resolve this problem in Calvinism. Again, you don't know how to resolve this dilema and so you just say that is how it is. Again, the Bible is not compatible with Calvinism because you cannot answer a simple problem that refutes Calvinism. So again, Jesus said repent or perish. But how can the elect perish? And how can the non-elect repent? If Jesus believed in Calvinism, he would say... repent my Elect. Repent, and heed the call. You Non-Elect over there... you will perish because God has chosen you for that fate. But did Jesus say that? No.
You said:
I gave vague reductionist answers on purpose because you wouldn’t like my theological answers any way. But I suppose I should do that for my random brothers on the internet? I’m talking to YOU, who clearly hates Calvinism.
Again, you are not just writing to me alone, but your words are public for all to see. Why not help a fellow Calvinist? Again, I think the real reason you are not answering is because your theological answer is not all that convincing in light of reading the Bible. It's because your answer cannot stand up to any kind of scrutiny. I mean, if what you believe is truly the truth, then why hide the truth?
Bibe Highlighter said:
Sorry. That is not UNconditional Election. According to Calvinism: God does not elect based on any conditions within the individuals or vise versa. That's why it is called UNconditional Election. For if God changed His mind and He desired that Non-Elect who did not want to go to Heaven, to then go to Heaven, God could have chosen to Elect him and he would have no choice but to be forced to be saved and going to Heaven against his own previous will. But forced love is not love. Ask any loving married couple. They did not force each other to love one another. See, this is where Calvinism fails. It simply does not understand love and how that works. Love only can happen when two parties both agree of their own free will to love one another.
You said:
Or, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly. Christ made His enemies His friends. Christ is the epitome of the loving example, and that was shown by what He endured for His church because of the joy set before Him. God loved children of us when we weren’t lovable. He took the first step.
I believe those verses about how God died for sinners was in regards to the Provisional Atonement. I don't believe God will save us if we continue to remain as sinners. A belief alone will not save anyone. For even the demons believe and tremble. But I am hoping at least you believe that we do have to live holy after we are saved by God's grace to prove that our salvation is true.
You said:
In case it hasn’t been clarified enough, I don’t want to argue with you. If you wanna believe in free will, go ahead. I don’t have to agree with you and you don’t have to agree with me. It’s great. We must agree on this “Christ has died. Christ has risen. Christ will come again,”
I believe in a mighty God Who doesn’t just save His people from their sins, but also saves them from themselves. I believe He is powerful, gracious, and even as a reformed Christian, loving and altogether lovely. We serve a great God, brother
It's not about me wanting to believe in free will. It's simply what the Bible teaches.
But of course we can agree to disagree in love and respect and move on (if you like).
May God's blessings be upon you (even if we disagree strongly over Scripture).