Is faith a gift that only God can give us? (Note: I have an answer, but I would like input).

[bbbbbbb]

Right, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). However, this does involve a synergistic cooperation of God doing the good work through us, though (See: Philippians 2:13). So no boasting in Ephesians 2:9 can ever be done because it is the work of God done through the believer. All praise and glory goes unto Him. It's why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus. But many today sneer at doing good for their Lord as if that is the bad thing and doing evil under God's grace is the good thing (When it comes to being in His Kingdom). They have things backwards. Up is down and down is up. Bitter for sweet, etc.

No problem. You are a synergist and I am a monergist. There is no real point in any further discussion is there?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No problem. You are a synergist and I am a monergist. There is no real point in any further discussion is there?

In God's eyes: There is only one who believes and follows His Word.

Take for example the following:

2 Thessalonians 2:10.
Luke 13:3.
Jonah 3:6-10.
Matthew 23:37.
Deuteronomy 30:19.
Revelation 22:17.​

You need to deal with these verses in what they say. For they do not make sense in the world of Calvinism. Oh, and by the way. Why does God get angry at sin by humans if it is God who is the One who by default does not choose them to be saved (When He could easily Elect them to salvation)?
In Luke 13:3, Jesus basically says repent or perish. The Elect cannot perish, and the Non-Elect cannot repent. This is not even the tip of the iceberg of the problems of Calvinism and why it does not make any sense.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No problem. You are a synergist and I am a monergist. There is no real point in any further discussion is there?

Also, I quoted Philippians 2:12 to you. You really did not offer any kind of explanation (Which does not bode well for your position). So do you just ignore Philippians 2:12? It says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. How does that exactly work in your theology? If one is destined to be Elect (saved), then there is nothing to work out with any kind of fear or trembling. Again, this is why I believe Calvinism does not make sense when a person reads their Bible plainly. A person has to change the Bible to fit what Calvinism says.

 

[zoidar]

@Bible Highlighter

You are quoting tons of verses. I need to study each of these verses in context to fully see their meaning, I can't just take your word for how they are to be understood.

You don't seem that interested in personal stories. But honestly I was resisting God. I even put a Bible and a Christian painting in the trash. But as soon as I got convinced of the Bible being true, I wanted to be saved. How did that come to be? What happened in my life was a proof God was real, I could no longer deny that. That lead to a strong conviction. I knew my route was going downward. So I repented and was saved.

What you say about us staying in faith, I agree with. We need to live our faith, unless we do, our faith is dead.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Bible Highlighter

You are quoting tons of verses. I need to study each of these verses in context to fully see their meaning, I can't just take your word for how they are to be understood.

You don't seem that interested in personal stories. But honestly I was resisting God. I even put a Bible and a Christian painting in the trash. But as soon as I got convinced of the Bible being true, I wanted to be saved. How did that come to be? What happened in my life was a proof God was real, I could no longer deny that. That lead to a strong conviction. I knew my route was going downward. So I repented and was saved.

What you say about us staying in faith, I agree with. We need to live our faith, unless we do, our faith is dead.

John 16:8-9 describes your situation in being convicted of sin of by the Spirit because of a lack of a belief in Jesus. This does not mean you could not refuse God’s conviction.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sin is the breaking of the commandment or Law (1 John 3:4). 1 John 3:23 is a command to believe in Jesus.

 

[Ceallaigh]

John 16:8-9 describes your situation in being convicted of sin of by the Spirit because of a lack of a belief in Jesus. This does not mean you could not refuse God’s conviction.

According to some, belief isn't any better than unbelief, because only those who perform well enough will earn eternal life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

According to some, belief isn't any better than unbelief, because only those who perform well enough will earn eternal life.

Not sure what that has to do with John 16:8-9. For John 16:8-9 is about coming to the Lord for the first time in being saved by God's grace. Anyways, to answer your statement: In Matthew 25:21, we learn that the servant who was faithful over a few things was told by His Lord, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” In Matthew 25:30 the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness. We know that a believer can also not make it into God's kingdom by justifying sin in Matthew 13:41-42, and Matthew 7:21-23, and Matthew 7:26-27. So we have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word and not what we want to be true. Of course, I am sure these verses will not be received by most Christians today, though. They have it in their mind a belief that goes against what Scripture says.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Not sure what that has to do with John 16:8-9. For John 16:8-9 is about coming to the Lord for the first time in being saved by God's grace.

Coming to the Lord for the first time in being saved by God's grace, doesn't really amount to anything according to what you wrote below.

Anyways, to answer your statement: In Matthew 25:21, we learn that the servant who was faithful over a few things was told by His Lord, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” In Matthew 25:30 the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness. We know that a believer can also not make it into God's kingdom by justifying sin in Matthew 13:41-42, and Matthew 7:21-23, and Matthew 7:26-27. So we have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word and not what we want to be true. Of course, I am sure these verses will not be received by most Christians today, though. They have it in their mind a belief that goes against what Scripture says.

It seems according to that, the way you're using it, you still have to perform well enough to earn eternal life. Most Christians seem to think what separates Christianity from Islam and Hinduism etc is that it's not based on works.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Coming to the Lord for the first time in being saved by God's grace, doesn't really amount to anything according to what you wrote below.

Sure it does because the reason Christ died for us was so that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of the water by the word (Scripture) that He might present to Himself a glorious church that should be holy and without blemish and without spot.

“...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.” (Ephesians 5:25-27).

“Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” (Titus 2:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).​

But most Christians today do not receive and accept these above verses.
They try to insert a belief into the Bible that says they can sin and still be saved on some level.
They believe they can serve two masters (i.e. Both God and their sin).

It seems according to that, the way you're using it, you still have to perform well enough to earn eternal life. Most Christians seem to think what separates Christianity from Islam and Hinduism etc is that it's not based on works.

Well, salvation is not a one size fits all package deal. Many can be saved soley by God's grace alone. I believe those who die on their deathbed can receive Jesus as their Savior. I believe babies who are aborted can be saved even without faith. But Jesus said, to whom much is given, much is required.

Christians are initially and foundationally saved by God's grace through believing and trusting in Jesus Christ as the Savior. A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2). This does not lead to an endless cycle of sinning and confessing one's whole life (with no real change in a person's life) whereby they are just paying empty lip service while they justify sin.

For we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12), which is in context to God doing the good work through us to will and do of His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

After we are saved by God's grace, we know the Bible also teaches....

1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
   
   
2. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
   
   
3. A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).
   
   
6. We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).
   
   
8. Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).
   
   
10. Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).
    
    
11. If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).

So salvation is not as one dimensional as many would like to believe. Yes, salvation is not by Works Alone without God's grace because nobody can be saved without their past slate of sin being wiped out by God's grace through faith in Christ. There are many who believe in God and they have not accepted Jesus as their Savior. They think they are worthy of Heaven based soley on their good deeds outweighing their bad deeds on some sort of cosmic judgment scale by God. But salvation does not work like that. Nobody's good deeds alone (without God's grace) can be worthy enough to cleanse their own sin. Only by the blood of Jesus Christ and in believing and trusting in Him can our past sins be forgiven and or cleansed. But after we are saved by God's grace, we need to also walk in the light as He is in the light and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin, too (See: 1 John 1:7). For God's grace is not a license for immorality or in turning His grace into lasciviousness or lustfulness (Jude 1:4). Believers do have to also enter the Sanctification Process in putting away sin, and in being fruitful for their Lord, and they cannot justify sin after being saved by God's grace.

So salvation is not in Works Alone and neither is it in Grace Alone if they live out their faith. Salvation is not as overly simplistic as you are making it out to be. God does require us to actually obey Him as a part of eternal life (See: Hebrews 5:9). This would be obeying Him in being saved by God's grace, and in entering the Sanctification Process. But many Christians today think they just need a belief alone in Jesus to be saved, and that lifting a finger for God and doing good as a part of being in His Kingdom is wrong. Thus, this means that a believer can do evil in the name of the Lord and be saved on some level. For the opposite of doing good is doing evil. To remain in a state of doing nothing for the Lord is to be one's own lord and master instead of making Jesus their Lord. They do not have to love the Lord in living a pure life for Him and in being fruitful. They can sin and still be saved on some level. That's what this is really about.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Coming to the Lord for the first time in being saved by God's grace, doesn't really amount to anything according to what you wrote below.



It seems according to that, the way you're using it, you still have to perform well enough to earn eternal life. Most Christians seem to think what separates Christianity from Islam and Hinduism etc is that it's not based on works.

You also did not explain Matthew 25:21, Matthew 25:30, Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 7:21-23, and Matthew 7:26-27 (Which appears to refute your false belief).

 

[Ceallaigh]

You also did not explain Matthew 25:21, Matthew 25:30, Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 7:21-23, and Matthew 7:26-27 (Which appears to refute your false belief).

Why are you making this personal? I'm talking about what theologians and scholars have had to say about Christianity vs all other religions and cults, which are performance works driven. What do they have to say about those verses in contrast to that?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why are you making this personal? I'm talking about what theologians and scholars have had to say about Christianity vs all other religions and cults, which are performance works driven. What do they have to say about those verses in contrast to that?

It's not personal. I am referring to what I believe is a wrong belief, and how you can support this wrong belief using the Bible. I am not asking about your personal life. I am seeking to keep this as a non-personal Bible based discussion. For if a person has what they believe is a Christian belief on the forums, they should be able to back that belief up with Scripture, and they should be able to explain with Scripture what I would call, “problem verses” that cast serious doubts on what they believe. In my opinion, you are just not dealing with any “problem verses” I put forth to you.

 

[Ceallaigh]

It's not personal. I am referring to what I believe is a wrong belief, and how you can support this wrong belief using the Bible. I am not asking about your personal life. I am seeking to keep this as a non-personal Bible based discussion. For if a person has what they believe is a Christian belief on the forums, they should be able to back that belief up with Scripture, and they should be able to explain with Scripture what I would call, “problem verses” that cast serious doubts on what they believe. In my opinion, you are just not dealing with any “problem verses” I put forth to you.

I'm talking about what theologians and scholars have had to say about Christianity vs all other religions and cults, which are performance works driven and the end goal has to be earned. What do they have to say about those verses you posted in contrast to that?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm talking about what theologians and scholars have had to say about Christianity vs all other religions and cults, which are performance works driven and the end goal has to be earned. What do they have to say about those verses you posted in contrast to that?

That is just man made classifications because the Bible does teach that after we are saved by God's grace, we must also enter the Sanctification Process (in living holy) as a part of God's plan of salvation. Again, just read your Bible, or look at the following points here below.

1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
   
   
2. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
   
   
3. A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).
   
   
6. We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).
   
   
8. Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).
   
   
10. Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).
    
    
11. If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).

 

[Ceallaigh]

That is just man made classifications because the Bible does teach that after we are saved by God's grace, we must also enter the Sanctification Process (in living holy) as a part of God's plan of salvation. Again, just read your Bible, or look at the following points here below.

1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
   
   
2. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
   
   
3. A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).
   
   
6. We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).
   
   
8. Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).
   
   
10. Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).
    
    
11. If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).

So Christianity is the same as all other religions and cults, in regard to being performance works driven to earn the end goal?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So Christianity is the same as all other religions and cults, in regard to being performance works driven to earn the end goal?

Again, it's not just Works Alone, but it is also by God's grace, too. Many (not all) other cults and or religions do not have God's grace as the foundation and or entrance gate. Just because Protestants made fancy little books and or made nice speeches that say that all the other religions and cults are wrong for how salvation does involve works, does not mean they are correct.

I mean the fact that you are not explaining the Scripture verses I put forth to you should show the weakness of your own argument. But you can keep paroting the same unbiblical mantra you have been fed and not worry about explaining any verses that refute your belief. Those who are truly “truth seekers” will be able to tell what is truth, and what is not in this kind of discussion here.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I mean the fact that you are not explaining the Scripture verses I put forth to you should show the weakness of your own argument. But you can keep paroting the same unbiblical mantra you have been fed and not worry about explaining any verses that refute your belief. Those who are truly “truth seekers” will be able to tell what is truth, and what is not in this kind of discussion here.

That was really crass and judgmental sounding.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That was really crass and judgmental sounding.

Well, I am judgmental against wrong beliefs, dear sir.
We all have them and we all do not like what we feel are wrong beliefs.
Also, you are not dealing with the problem that is at the heart of your belief by explaining the verses that appears to refute your belief, as well. I keep having to say this but you keep avoiding in having to explain anything. So unless you explain the verses I put forth to you, I am going to move on from talking to you (because it will let me know that you are not truly interested in having a serious Bible discussion or debate on this particular topic or issue).

 

[Ceallaigh]

Well, I am judgmental against wrong beliefs, dear sir.
We all have them and we all do not like what we feel are wrong beliefs.
Also, you are not dealing with the problem that is at the heart of your belief by explaining the verses that appears to refute your belief, as well. I keep having to say this but you keep avoiding in having to explain anything. So unless you explain the verses I put forth to you, I am going to move on from talking to you (because it will let me know that you are not truly interested in having a serious Bible discussion or debate on this particular topic or issue).

I'm exploring your beliefs. That seems to make you uncomfortable. So I suppose that's why you are talking down to me and trying to boss me around.