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Is faith a gift that only God can give us? (Note: I am not asking because I don't know).

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Apr 21, 2021.

Is faith a gift that only God can give to us?

  1. Yes (Only God can give us the gift of faith).

    43.5%
  2. No (God already makes man with the capacity to excercise faith without any help from God).

    17.4%
  3. Other (Please explain)

    39.1%
  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    My issue is not with those who study Hebrew and Greek, but with those who think that the only way you can understand the Bible is with only the Hebrew and Greek. There are many biblical reasons I have for holding to the view that the KJB is the divine and perfect Word of God for today.


    A person needs a final Word of authority that they cannot alter, if not they will end up making their own version of the Word of God.

    As for Scripture twisting:

    Right, so how do you plainly accept 2 Thessalonians 2:10, Jonah 3:6-10, 2 Peter 2:1, 1 John 2:2, and 2 Peter 3:9 plainly? No offense, but in my view, the Calvinist must twist these verses to say something other than they would in order for Calvinism to be true. But you are free to believe as you wish.​

    As for examing oneself:

    We all need to examine or prove that Christ is in us (1 Corinthians 13:5).
    I am not above the Word of God anymore than you are.
    The way we can prove this is whether or not we keep His commandments (1 John 2:3-4).​

    Calvinism is a seriously problematic because it attacks the good character of the Lord our God.
    Man is at fault for his own sin and loss of salvation, and it is not God's fault men perish because He did not elect them to salvation. God is good, and God is just in all He does. God is not like what He think He is. You need to re-read the Bible more closely without any Calvinistic bias. I know you want Calvinism to be true for some odd reason. But things are not as we wish them to be.

    Faith is not a gift. God (Jesus) tells us to have faith in God (See: Mark 11:22).

    Anyways, may the Lord Jesus bless you, as well (even if we disagree strongly over the Scriptures).
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2021 at 1:24 PM
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Which would be a denial of Scripture (See: 1 John 5:16-17, Matthew 5:22).

    It actually is a sin and still be saved type belief on some level because practically most Christians I have talked with have stated that they are forgiven of future sin and confession of sin is not necessary and they also state they sin all the time in some way.

    This could be true in regards to referring to them commiting non-mortal sin (i.e. sins that do not lead to spiritual death) if they reached a point in their life from committing mortal sin.

    But in regards to them committing mortal sin: This would not be true. For 1 John 3:7-8 says,

    “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:7-8).

    1 John 3:7-8 is in context to mortal sin (See: 1 John 3:10, and 1 John 3:15).

    No offense, but I am not expecting you to believe 1 John 3:7-8 anymore than you believe 1 Timothy 6:12 at face value.

    Yes. Jesus never committed any kind of sin (Neither mortal sin, and neither non-mortal sin).

    Hebrews 7:26 says this of Jesus:

    “For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;” (Hebrews 7:26).

    Paul says we have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16).
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2021 at 1:22 PM
  3. HosannaHM

    HosannaHM Christian Saved by Grace

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    I believe the manuscripts are inerrant- not translations.​


    :sigh:... alright here we go again. Apply your own reasoning to your own position. So, do you plainly accept 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, 1 Peter 1:3, the entire thought of Romans 9, and many more? Have you figured out that I'm not arguing with you about soteriology, but that I am concerned with your reasoning?​


    I think we agree on this.​

    I think you mean God is not like the way I think He is... Calvinism is not wrong because it attacks the good character of God. We don't need to go there. That's not a scripture you're quoting friend :) He is just, and he is good. He could have sent us all to hell and still be just. Did you know that? God: good. Men: not good apart from God. I've got more evidence for Calvinism being true than you have for the KJV being the only inspired version. Let that sink in. At the end of the day, I don't care about which "system" is true. I care about God's truth. There may be elements of Calvinism that turn out to be wrong in the end. I'm okay with that. Let God be true and every man a liar. It's not that I want so badly for it to be true, but rather I want God's truth to be honored. Again, turn your own reasoning back on yourself. Maybe you just want Calvinism to be false for some odd reason. Free will maybe? I don't know what you're thinking, but you don't know what I'm thinking either. Things are not always as you want them to be.
    Blessings, friend
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Divine inpiration of the originals is pointless if there is no divine preservation of those originals into a language that we are familiar with today. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. God was able to translate perfectly fine the languages at Pentecost. But many think God has changed (But He hasn't). The apostle Paul is not alive to confirm if we are getting our Greek correct. Moses is not alive today to see if we are getting our Hebrew correct. For not even all scholars agree with each other. Nowhere does the Bible teach that we have to look to a more ancient language in order to understand His Word. God always communicated with His people in a language that they would understand. Why? Because God is not the author of confusion. I mean, it's difficult enough for people to agree on the Bible in English, and you want to make it even more difficult that we must understand the Bible in languages that are dead?

    The word “chosen” in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is used here more in reference to like being appointed for a particular office or task to carry out a specific function. That does not mean that an elected official cannot be removed. So chosen is not used here as in the sense of fatalism. Jesus says that He chose the twelve disciples (John 6:70). Yet, Judas turned out to be a devil, and he betrayed the Lord. So just because somebody is chosen to salvation does not mean they will be saved in the end as a matter of fact. This is why Paul continues to say in 2 Thessalonians 2, “Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.” (2 Thessalonians 2:15). If their fate was sealed in being saved, then Paul would not encourage them to stand fast and hold to the teachings they had been taught. He would just let them be because he knows they are forever saved no matter what. But Paul is not speaking in any Calvinistic way in verse 15. The same is true for 2 Thessalonians 2:10. There is no MIGHT BE SAVED in Calvinism. Yet, that is exactly what 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says.

    I explained this verse in this thead here:

    What does "...as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" mean in Acts 13:48?

    God elects according to His foreknowledge (1 Peter 1:1-2).
    This means God chooses those who He knows by His future foreknowledge of those He knows will accept Him. But in Calvinism, it is UNconditional Election. Yet, my Bible says that God elects according to foreknowedge. So my Bible teaches Conditional Election, and not UNconditional Election.

    However, Romans 9 is not isolated from the rest of the book of Romans.
    The whole point of Romans 9 was written with the Jew in mind in how they were trying to earn salvation by “Works Alone Salvationism” (without God's grace through Jesus Christ), and how they found favor with God based on their nationality (in that they were God's people, Israel).

    Romans 9:6-8 is a refutation of the Israelite's false belief of salvific nationalism.
    Romans 9:9-16 is a refutation of the Israelite's false belief of “Works Alone Salvationism” (without Jesus and His grace). The passage also adds in saying that salvation is by him who calls [upon the name of the Lord Jesus] (Compare Romans 9:11 with Romans 10:13).
    Romans 9:17-18 sets up the dilemma for the Israelite in being saved by God's grace and mercy on His terms. Pharaoh was hardened on God's terms in that we know that a person's heart is hardened by their own sin. For a believer who sins and hardens their heart, they can then fall into unbelief and depart from the living God (See: Hebrews 3:12-15). Sin is the breaking of the Law or commandment (1 John 3:4). The Israelite was hardening their heart against God on account of their sin or disobedience to the command to believe in Jesus (1 John 3:23).
    Romans 9:19 is the Israelite complaining about how can God find fault because they believe they are doing God's will as an Israelite.
    Romans 9:20 A voice answers the Israelite and criticizes the Israelite. The voice asks a question from the Israelite's perspective, “Why have you made me this way [i.e. as an Israelite, a keeper of the Law]?”
    When reading Romans 9:21-23, we have to keep in mind that God elects based on His foreknowledge (His future foreknowledge of what they are going to do) (1 Peter 1:1-2). The language present in this passage is reminiscent of Jeremiah 18 about how God will form the clay based upon how a nation does not hear his voice, He will turn back on the good He would do unto them. God warns Jerusalem and Judah that He frames evil them against unless they repent. Meaning, based on what we do, a person will fall into one of two categories. The resurrection of life, and the resurrection of the damned (i.e. the vessels of wrath and mercy). God will render to every man according to his deeds (See: Romans 2:6).

    Romans 9:30-32 clarifies (recaps) what was being said:

    “What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;” (Romans 9:30-32).

    “...rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.” (Romans 11:11).

    So Romans 9 is really not talking about Calvinistic Unconditional Election.
    Even the word “call” used in Romans 9 in reference to God calling does not prove that God is forcing anything upon a person. For many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14).

    Right, I am concerned with your reasoning in that you don't explain any verses in how they mean what they plainly say. I am concerned with your reasoning in that you think God creates people for the specific purpose in life to be tortured alive for all eternity (and they had no other choice in the matter).

    So you believe that if a believer does not keep God's commandments they are not saved?

    But you fail to see it is like a master who kicks his dog across the room like a football because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem because it is sick. The master simply does not care and just kicks the animal anyways.

    The God of the Bible is just and good. But the way Calvinists describe God is unlike what we read about in the Bible. No offense, but I believe they misunderstand Romans 9 and thus create a distorted image of Him.

    Sorry, that would have never happened. God is love; And God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.

    I already provided to you 1 John 2:3-4 that shows that.
    But the indicator is fruit and not a belief alone.

    There are 75 flat Earth verses that Flat Earth Christians use to prove a Flat Earth, but that does not mean they are correct.

    Again, I don't think a person will just accept Calvinism without having a mindset to wanting it to be true in some way. The same is true for Flat Earthers. If a person is repulsed by the idea of Calvinism, they don't have to read too far in their Bible to disprove such a belief. Verses like 2 Thessalonians 2:10, Jonah 3:6-10, Deuteronomy 30:19 should make it obvious to a person that Calvinism is a failed belief system if they are not biased towards Calvinism.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2021 at 5:47 PM
  5. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

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    If only "mortal sins" matter, then what difference would it make if Jesus committed "non-mortal sins"? What you seem to be saying is, sin isn't a problem as long as it's not "mortal sin".
     
  6. HosannaHM

    HosannaHM Christian Saved by Grace

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    I feel like I might as well talk to this wall behind me. Bible Highlighter, you do not give your theological opponents the same respect you provide yourself. I’m talking about your reasoning. YOU SAID “plain reading of the text” and then performed a bunch of theological gymnastics at the verses I provided. Don’t you get it? This is why you’re not getting anywhere with anyone. You have a double standard my friend, and it’s very frustrating to have a meaningful discussion with your standard. Plus, you ignore the deeper unifying statements I try to give and focus on your hatred for Calvinism. Good grief. Brother, I’m really trying here
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    While non-mortal sin does not lead to spiritual death (or condemnation in the afterlife), I believe non-mortal sin can lead to possible punishment here on Earth: Such as pain, disease, misfortune, problems in relationships, punishment in earthly courts, and is a part of physical death. Jesus did not experience any bad side effects of non-mortal sin because He was without sin of any kind (1 Peter 2:22) (1 John 3:5). Jesus is holy and separate from sinners if you believe Hebrews 7:26. Jesus is the spotless Lamb who took away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).
     
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    It is written:

    “Do everything without complaining and arguing, so that no one can criticize you. Live clean, innocent lives as children of God, shining like bright lights in a world full of crooked and perverse people.”
    (Philippians 2:14-15) (NLT).
     
  9. HosannaHM

    HosannaHM Christian Saved by Grace

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    I’m not following your point here- how about an explanation? Cause this feels like a dodge- and I don’t mean the vehicle brand.
     
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Matthew 13:19.

    2 Timothy 2:14-15
    “Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

    “Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read:” (Isaiah 34:16).

    “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” (Colossians 3:16).
     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    To all:

    No one will ever stand before God and claim that he is condemned because God never gave him/her the gift of faith, because all men are commanded to believe and to repent (1 John 3:23 and Acts of the Apostles 17:30). God says ”Look unto Me and be ye saved all the ends of the earth” (Isaiah 45:22). God desires all men to come unto him (1 Timothy 2:4), and men are condemned for their failure to do so because they could (John 8:24; John 3:18; 2 Thessalonians 2:10, etc.).

    The Bible says that faith comes through hearing by the word of God, and this would be inaccurate if we are to understand ”faith” as a gift of God in Ephesians 2:8.

    The Philippian jailer asked: ”What must I do to be saved?” (Acts of the Apostles 16:30). The response was not ”Nothing! You can’t do anything! You are dead and totally unable to respond to God until you are regenerated. You have no part in salvation. God must do it all.” Paul and Silas told the jailer that there was something that he could do and that was to believe in Lord Jesus Christ (Acts of the Apostles 16:31). Compare with how Peter answered a similar question in Acts of the Apostles 2:37-38).

    Article source:
    FAITH is not the gift of God in Eph. 2:8-9, but SALVATION is
     
  12. HosannaHM

    HosannaHM Christian Saved by Grace

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    That’s pretty offensive. I don’t believe it’s the word of God I’m having trouble understanding- but rather you sir. You don’t have an answer so now your just quoting random bible verses at me.


    Good scriptures you quoted there. The latter one happens to be one of my favorites. It’s too bad you’re too busy thinking they are just for me and my edification and not your own. You may want to apply your own wisdom to how you interact with others- and quit dodging the greatest commandment. Love God and love your neighbor, brother
     
  13. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

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    I see so your view of what you call non-mortal sin is pretty much how most Christians I know of view sin as a whole. Although the earthly punishments are often viewed as punishments from God. Like all the different kinds of punishments Israel experienced for example.
     
  14. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

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    This happens online sometimes where someone equates their interpretation of scripture is being equal with the word of God. Basically any interpretation other than theirs is ignorance, heresy, lies from the devil, calling God a liar etc.
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Most of us have misunderstood things witin God's Word every now and then.

    What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word?

    I believe that when we mistunderstand God's Word, it is the enemy who has clouded our understanding on a particular part of what His Word says. This would not be the whole of the Word of God on all things (obviously). Many Christians accept those verses on the Trinity as one example. So this would be an example where the enemy has not stolen His word out of heart when it comes to those verses that talk about the Trinity.

    You believe they are random bible verses that I have quoted to you, but they were not quoted without any thought or intent, my friend. For example: I did not quote Philippians 2:14 randomly.

    “Do everything without complaining and arguing,” (Philippians 2:14).

    Our highest goal indeed. The two greatest commandments. How beautiful they are. They are a part of the glorious faith we have in the Lord. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). This faith is not forced upon me. The Lord Jesus is the sower, and He plants the seed of God's Word. It is up to us if we receive such seeds and act upon His Word in loving Him, and others. God makes His home in us when we act upon His Word (by keeping His commandments like the two greatest ones).

    “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” (John 14:23).

    We know God gets upset at those who break His commands.
    For God is angry at the wicked every day (Psalms 7:11).
    Why would God get angry at things He can change Himself?
    For cannot God just simply elect and change those who disobey Him?
    This is why faith is not a gift. God does not force regenerate or give faith to anyone. He gives us His Word (the Bible), which is the faith.
    But it is up to us if we want to believe the faith He sets before us.
    Unconditional Election is simply not true.
    God is love. And God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall not perish, but shall have everlasting life (John 3:16). How amazing that is. God loves all in that He died for all so as to give them a chance at salvation. His love is in great abundance!
    This truth is something to rejoice within indeed.

    Praise be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  16. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

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    Post #6 of the thread you posted above says:

    Now who's to say you're right about your view regarding this particular issue, and Andrewn is wrong?
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Well, I strive not to speak against any one person here (unless somebody is constantly attacking me or trying to make things all about me). My goal is not to speak against any one person here. That is not why I am here. I am here to expose wrong beliefs and uplift the Word of God.

    So to give you an answer in general terms (without referring to any one specific individual):

    Motivations is always the best way to determine why a person believes the way they do in regards to the Word of God. What does a person have to gain by believing this particular belief? If you dig deep enough, you will see that a person's beliefs will either be selfish (contradicting the Word of God), or it will be selfless in being in favor to obedience to God's Word. Jesus says if we do not receive His words, those words will judge us on the last day (John 12:48). I don't want to be judged by the Lord Jesus by not receiving His words, do you? So I will strive to my last breath to keep them to the best of my ability and with the Lord's help and power.

    To get to the heart of why a person believes the way they do on a particular thing in the Bible, they could ask themselves these kinds of questions, and write them down in a notebook. They could write down one column, labeled as “selfless,” and the other column labeled as “selfish.” If our “selfish” column is large, we should pray and check ourselves if we are reading and understanding God's Word correctly, and ask God's help for proper understanding of His Word (and not just what we want to hear). We should not try to ignore verses in the Bible that appear to contradict our belief, but we must find a way to explain them in light of our belief that we have using the context, and or cross references.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021 at 2:36 AM
  18. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

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    It tends to come off as lecturing others on why you're right, and they're wrong. It rubs people the wrong way.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021 at 7:01 AM
  19. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

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    Here's the thing for me personally when it comes to something like OSAS eternal security. If true, then my only reason for obeying and doing works, is strictly for God alone. If it has nothing to do with my salvation / saving myself, then it's all and only about pleasing God. Again, that's why I personally like that doctrine. I'm not sold on it, but that's what I like about it. So for some I suppose it could be a license to sin. But for me it's a license to stop thinking about what's in it for me, and to totally delight in what's in it for God.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021 at 7:17 AM
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Right, and Jesus was hated for doing the same thing. Ever read John 8:31-59 lately? If not, I would encourage you to read it slowly and pay very close attention to what was being said.
     
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