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Is Ezekiel 18:20 a proof text refuting original sin and imputed guilt?

johansen

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Invincible ignorance applies, surely.
According to paul and acts, they didnt have the law and were thus ignorant, and sin was not charged to their account.


"But now GOD COMMANDS EVERYONE EVERYWHERE TO REPENT"

For secular evidence that God actually did make changes globally.. i suggest starting with the rabbit hole explored by the author of "the origin of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind".

You can then easily see that God started holding different civilizations accountable for sin at different times. Egypt was first, with moses.

South america was last, had to wait till the spanish came over.

I tend to think Peter spoke exuberantly and didnt know what he was saying in acts 17: 31 iirc, as he did several times previously recorded
 
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Maria Billingsley

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What do you think about the vast majority of non-Christians who never consciously reject God simply because they don't have the slightest clue that the Christian God even exists?
If I may, when you say " vast majority " I must say that this is not accurate. Lack of knowledge at such a scale does not exist anymore. Perhaps people who are isolated on an island like the Sentinelese would not have the slightest clue but the vast majority of the world even North Korea know who Jesus Christ of Nazareth is. That being said, what of the Sentinelese people? "I AM" created them just as He created us. He judges the hearts of men just as He did from the beginning. Blessings.
 
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bbbbbbb

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The hitch is that they are incapable of asking God to forgive them simply because they don't have the slightest knowledge of the Christian God. They, assuredly, can seek forgiveness and nirvana through the Hindu pantheon, or the Buddha, or Allah, but I don't believe for a moment that any of those deities exist and are capable of granting forgiveness.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Do you think that God turned a blind eye to the daily sacrifice of a beating human heart on the altars of the Mayan Empire?
 
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bbbbbbb

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You might wish to think that such ignorance is no longer of such an extent. Christian triumphalists proudly point to the translation of the New Testament into the languages of virtually every linguistic population on the globe. However, having the New Testament translated into all of these languages masks the fact that, in many cases, it is unavailable to people either because of illiteracy or because it is prohibited. For example, the Danish Bible Society translated the New Testament into Urdu, the national language of Pakistan, in the late nineteenth century. Today, the number of printed copies of that translation is less than 1,000. The overwhelming majority of Pakistanis do not have access to the Bible other than through the curious references to it in the Q'ran, which, by the way, is only in Arabic, which the vast majority do not speak or read.

One could argue that Pakistanis all have access to "Christianity" because it is viewed quite negatively and in a very distorted manner in the mosques and madrassas. Does that mean that each and every non-Christian Pakistani has made a conscious decision to reject God?
 
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johansen

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Wrong.

It is self evident and they have no excuse.

I was speaking sarcastically above.
God has always commanded people everywhere to repent.
And the tree of knowledge of good and evil is what gave everyone knowledge of sin. Not moses.

Btw, last week someone on reddit was asking what to do about their 4 year old daughter..

Who had an existential crisis when she realized one day she would die, and was unconsolable.

A 4 year old!
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Regardless of one's cultural background, we are all made in God's image thus have an opportunity to know Him. He will not leave anyone completely ignorant of Him.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Of course, all people are fully aware of life as well as death. The vast majority of people, however, do not have a clue as to any means of effectively securing eternal life in heaven with Jesus Christ, do they?
 
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bbbbbbb

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Regardless of one's cultural background, we are all made in God's image thus have an opportunity to know Him. He will not leave anyone completely ignorant of Him.
I perceive that you chose to evade my question concerning Pakistanis in my previous reply to you.

Apparently you either have a supremely broad definition of what it actually is to know God or you have not actually engaged with individuals who are completely ignorant of God. Many, if not most, cultures have concepts about god(s). Do you think those concepts of god(s) are sufficient for them to know God?
 
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Maria Billingsley

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They may appear ignorant on the outside but on the inside it is a different story. That is the part we do not know.
 
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SuperCow

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Inheriting sin, and sharing the sins of an ancestor or descendant are two different things.

We all inherited the weakness that drives us to sin, but we do not share the sin of Adam. We all can repent of our sins, ask for forgiveness and be redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ. That doesn't mean that we all will do so. If we repent and our parents do not or vice-versa, we do not share their sin. We do, however, inherit the circumstances of sin.

What we inherit through the environment we are born in is unique to each of us, and what we have to overcome to be able to repent in our heart is also unique to each of us and is what we inherit. I can be born in a war zone in Africa, or an upper middle class family in North America. While in theory, the act of repentance is the same for everyone, how each of us get to that point where we can truly repent is very different. That is why Jesus tells us parables about people with very different skills and strengths, and those with the greater gifts will have more expected from them in order to be a truly repentant person and not a fake or a repenter of convenience. Going to church while your mind is thinking of your next fantasy football result later that afternoon is not repenting. (Nothing wrong with football per se, but when it is more important than God, then you're already behind the murderer that was crucified along with Jesus.)

What do you think about the vast majority of non-Christians who never consciously reject God simply because they don't have the slightest clue that the Christian God even exists?
Romans 2:14 - "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:"

So when I read this, I think that a person with no opportunity to learn about God, but nevertheless follows the general principles of Jesus in Mark. I think if you die with a legitimate feeling that you are serving a higher power and subsequently treating others with dignity, respect and hospitality, then I think you might get a pass for never being approached by a Christian missionary during your lifetime.

Mark 12:30,31 - "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
 
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bbbbbbb

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I will stir the pot again. What do you make of John 14:6 and Acts 4:12?

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
 
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SuperCow

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Romans 3:23,24 - "for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"

Jesus sacrifice opens the way for humans to attain salvation. Only God can judge whether we are worthy.

Acts 17 gives a good account of the early preaching. In Thessalonica, the Jews that berated and charged the believers proved they were unworthy, whereas gentiles (some of them) in Athens were very open to Paul's teachings and eager to learn about a god they had not been taught about. Before the arrival of the Christians to their cities, they were still the same people, but it was their arrival that separated those that were open to God and those that would reject him.

Matthew 25:31-46 describes the separating people (sheep and goats). Spreading the gospel makes it possible to distinguish the people who search for God and those that reject him. Without Christ, this is not possible.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Do you believe that a person like Mahatma Ghandi who was a completely blameless and sincere Hindu yet who utterly and completely rejected Christianity would be found worthy to enter heaven?
 
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Why do you make things so complicated. All these labels credo, paudeo, baptist, mormans, on and on and on. That's the problem with the lukewarm church of today. It's like a gigantic mansion where every denomination has there own room. I am so thankful I got out of all that. The Bible is so easy, but man has made it so complex and dificult to understand. It has a clear message when you get away from all that dogma the denominations throw at you. I even dislike the label Christian. Today, the only way to reconize a Christian is when they tell you they are. I don't use use it. It's embarassing to me and God.

Here is a simple answer. Romans 11:23, for God has imprisoned everyone in disobedeince so He could have mercy on everyrone. We start life in the womb under condemnation, everyone single one us. You will remain under condemnation unless you recieve rescue from our Lord Jesus Christ. That's the simple Gospel. What more do you have to debate over?
 
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Do you believe that a person like Mahatma Ghandi who was a completely blameless and sincere Hindu yet who utterly and completely rejected Christianity would be found worthy to enter heaven?
You answered your own question. How can he be blameless when he rejected Jesus Christ. He is hell bound plain and simple. The righteous, the ones covered by the blood of Jesus are blamess under God's eye and are heaven bound.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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This is minimalism.

We are commanded to teach the whole counsel of God.
 
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bbbbbbb

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You answered your own question. How can he be blameless when he rejected Jesus Christ. He is hell bound plain and simple. The righteous, the ones covered by the blood of Jesus are blamess under God's eye and are heaven bound.
Very well and true. What do you make of the innumerable Hindus who are as sincerely righteous according to Hindu standards of righteousness? For example, what do you make of the Buddha who, having lived and died centuries before Jesus Christ was, and remains, a highly revered figure in world history? He was quite incapable of rejecting the God of the Hebrews.
 
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