Is Ezekiel 18:20 a proof text refuting original sin and imputed guilt?

johansen

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Invincible ignorance applies, surely.
According to paul and acts, they didnt have the law and were thus ignorant, and sin was not charged to their account.


"But now GOD COMMANDS EVERYONE EVERYWHERE TO REPENT"

For secular evidence that God actually did make changes globally.. i suggest starting with the rabbit hole explored by the author of "the origin of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind".

You can then easily see that God started holding different civilizations accountable for sin at different times. Egypt was first, with moses.

South america was last, had to wait till the spanish came over.

I tend to think Peter spoke exuberantly and didnt know what he was saying in acts 17: 31 iirc, as he did several times previously recorded
 
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Maria Billingsley

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What do you think about the vast majority of non-Christians who never consciously reject God simply because they don't have the slightest clue that the Christian God even exists?
If I may, when you say " vast majority " I must say that this is not accurate. Lack of knowledge at such a scale does not exist anymore. Perhaps people who are isolated on an island like the Sentinelese would not have the slightest clue but the vast majority of the world even North Korea know who Jesus Christ of Nazareth is. That being said, what of the Sentinelese people? "I AM" created them just as He created us. He judges the hearts of men just as He did from the beginning. Blessings.
 
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bbbbbbb

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All they need to do is ask God to forgive them.
A far larger percentage of the population does, and will do this, than i have ever previously imagined, i have learned this slowly over the last 20 years..

Now if they want to be born again, live a holy life, be baptized, and do good public works such as heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out demons.. yeah, they only make up maybe 1%.

But works aren't needed scream the masses of christians in name only...
The hitch is that they are incapable of asking God to forgive them simply because they don't have the slightest knowledge of the Christian God. They, assuredly, can seek forgiveness and nirvana through the Hindu pantheon, or the Buddha, or Allah, but I don't believe for a moment that any of those deities exist and are capable of granting forgiveness.
 
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bbbbbbb

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According to paul and acts, they didnt have the law and were thus ignorant, and sin was not charged to their account.


"But now GOD COMMANDS EVERYONE EVERYWHERE TO REPENT"

For secular evidence that God actually did make changes globally.. i suggest starting with the rabbit hole explored by the author of "the origin of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind".

You can then easily see that God started holding different civilizations accountable for sin at different times. Egypt was first, with moses.

South america was last, had to wait till the spanish came over.

I tend to think Peter spoke exuberantly and didnt know what he was saying in acts 17: 31 iirc, as he did several times previously recorded
Do you think that God turned a blind eye to the daily sacrifice of a beating human heart on the altars of the Mayan Empire?
 
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bbbbbbb

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If I may, when you say " vast majority " I must say that this is not accurate. Lack of knowledge at such a scale does not exist anymore. Perhaps people who are isolated on an island like the Sentinelese would not have the slightest clue but the vast majority of the world even North Korea know who Jesus Christ of Nazareth is. That being said, what of the Sentinelese people? "I AM" created them just as He created us. He judges the hearts of men just as He did from the beginning. Blessings.
You might wish to think that such ignorance is no longer of such an extent. Christian triumphalists proudly point to the translation of the New Testament into the languages of virtually every linguistic population on the globe. However, having the New Testament translated into all of these languages masks the fact that, in many cases, it is unavailable to people either because of illiteracy or because it is prohibited. For example, the Danish Bible Society translated the New Testament into Urdu, the national language of Pakistan, in the late nineteenth century. Today, the number of printed copies of that translation is less than 1,000. The overwhelming majority of Pakistanis do not have access to the Bible other than through the curious references to it in the Q'ran, which, by the way, is only in Arabic, which the vast majority do not speak or read.

One could argue that Pakistanis all have access to "Christianity" because it is viewed quite negatively and in a very distorted manner in the mosques and madrassas. Does that mean that each and every non-Christian Pakistani has made a conscious decision to reject God?
 
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johansen

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The hitch is that they are incapable of asking God to forgive them simply because they don't have the slightest knowledge of the Christian God. They, assuredly, can seek forgiveness and nirvana through the Hindu pantheon, or the Buddha, or Allah, but I don't believe for a moment that any of those deities exist and are capable of granting forgiveness.
Wrong.

It is self evident and they have no excuse.

I was speaking sarcastically above.
God has always commanded people everywhere to repent.
And the tree of knowledge of good and evil is what gave everyone knowledge of sin. Not moses.

Btw, last week someone on reddit was asking what to do about their 4 year old daughter..

Who had an existential crisis when she realized one day she would die, and was unconsolable.

A 4 year old!
 
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Maria Billingsley

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You might wish to think that such ignorance is no longer of such an extent. Christian triumphalists proudly point to the translation of the New Testament into the languages of virtually every linguistic population on the globe. However, having the New Testament translated into all of these languages masks the fact that, in many cases, it is unavailable to people either because of illiteracy or because it is prohibited. For example, the Danish Bible Society translated the New Testament into Urdu, the national language of Pakistan, in the late nineteenth century. Today, the number of printed copies of that translation is less than 1,000. The overwhelming majority of Pakistanis do not have access to the Bible other than through the curious references to it in the Q'ran, which, by the way, is only in Arabic, which the vast majority do not speak or read.

One could argue that Pakistanis all have access to "Christianity" because it is viewed quite negatively and in a very distorted manner in the mosques and madrassas. Does that mean that each and every non-Christian Pakistani has made a conscious decision to reject God?
Regardless of one's cultural background, we are all made in God's image thus have an opportunity to know Him. He will not leave anyone completely ignorant of Him.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Wrong.

It is self evident and they have no excuse.

I was speaking sarcastically above.
God has always commanded people everywhere to repent.
And the tree of knowledge of good and evil is what gave everyone knowledge of sin. Not moses.

Btw, last week someone on reddit was asking what to do about their 4 year old daughter..

Who had an existential crisis when she realized one day she would die, and was unconsolable.

A 4 year old!
Of course, all people are fully aware of life as well as death. The vast majority of people, however, do not have a clue as to any means of effectively securing eternal life in heaven with Jesus Christ, do they?
 
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bbbbbbb

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Regardless of one's cultural background, we are all made in God's image thus have an opportunity to know Him. He will not leave anyone completely ignorant of Him.
I perceive that you chose to evade my question concerning Pakistanis in my previous reply to you.

Apparently you either have a supremely broad definition of what it actually is to know God or you have not actually engaged with individuals who are completely ignorant of God. Many, if not most, cultures have concepts about god(s). Do you think those concepts of god(s) are sufficient for them to know God?
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I perceive that you chose to evade my question concerning Pakistanis in my previous reply to you.

Apparently you either have a supremely broad definition of what it actually is to know God or you have not actually engaged with individuals who are completely ignorant of God. Many, if not most, cultures have concepts about god(s). Do you think those concepts of god(s) are sufficient for them to know God?
They may appear ignorant on the outside but on the inside it is a different story. That is the part we do not know.
 
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SuperCow

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Inheriting sin, and sharing the sins of an ancestor or descendant are two different things.

We all inherited the weakness that drives us to sin, but we do not share the sin of Adam. We all can repent of our sins, ask for forgiveness and be redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ. That doesn't mean that we all will do so. If we repent and our parents do not or vice-versa, we do not share their sin. We do, however, inherit the circumstances of sin.

What we inherit through the environment we are born in is unique to each of us, and what we have to overcome to be able to repent in our heart is also unique to each of us and is what we inherit. I can be born in a war zone in Africa, or an upper middle class family in North America. While in theory, the act of repentance is the same for everyone, how each of us get to that point where we can truly repent is very different. That is why Jesus tells us parables about people with very different skills and strengths, and those with the greater gifts will have more expected from them in order to be a truly repentant person and not a fake or a repenter of convenience. Going to church while your mind is thinking of your next fantasy football result later that afternoon is not repenting. (Nothing wrong with football per se, but when it is more important than God, then you're already behind the murderer that was crucified along with Jesus.)

What do you think about the vast majority of non-Christians who never consciously reject God simply because they don't have the slightest clue that the Christian God even exists?
Romans 2:14 - "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:"

So when I read this, I think that a person with no opportunity to learn about God, but nevertheless follows the general principles of Jesus in Mark. I think if you die with a legitimate feeling that you are serving a higher power and subsequently treating others with dignity, respect and hospitality, then I think you might get a pass for never being approached by a Christian missionary during your lifetime.

Mark 12:30,31 - "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
 
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bbbbbbb

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Inheriting sin, and sharing the sins of an ancestor or descendant are two different things.

We all inherited the weakness that drives us to sin, but we do not share the sin of Adam. We all can repent of our sins, ask for forgiveness and be redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ. That doesn't mean that we all will do so. If we repent and our parents do not or vice-versa, we do not share their sin. We do, however, inherit the circumstances of sin.

What we inherit through the environment we are born in is unique to each of us, and what we have to overcome to be able to repent in our heart is also unique to each of us and is what we inherit. I can be born in a war zone in Africa, or an upper middle class family in North America. While in theory, the act of repentance is the same for everyone, how each of us get to that point where we can truly repent is very different. That is why Jesus tells us parables about people with very different skills and strengths, and those with the greater gifts will have more expected from them in order to be a truly repentant person and not a fake or a repenter of convenience. Going to church while your mind is thinking of your next fantasy football result later that afternoon is not repenting. (Nothing wrong with football per se, but when it is more important than God, then you're already behind the murderer that was crucified along with Jesus.)


Romans 2:14 - "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:"

So when I read this, I think that a person with no opportunity to learn about God, but nevertheless follows the general principles of Jesus in Mark. I think if you die with a legitimate feeling that you are serving a higher power and subsequently treating others with dignity, respect and hospitality, then I think you might get a pass for never being approached by a Christian missionary during your lifetime.

Mark 12:30,31 - "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
I will stir the pot again. What do you make of John 14:6 and Acts 4:12?

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
 
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SuperCow

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I will stir the pot again. What do you make of John 14:6 and Acts 4:12?

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

Romans 3:23,24 - "for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"

Jesus sacrifice opens the way for humans to attain salvation. Only God can judge whether we are worthy.

Acts 17 gives a good account of the early preaching. In Thessalonica, the Jews that berated and charged the believers proved they were unworthy, whereas gentiles (some of them) in Athens were very open to Paul's teachings and eager to learn about a god they had not been taught about. Before the arrival of the Christians to their cities, they were still the same people, but it was their arrival that separated those that were open to God and those that would reject him.

Matthew 25:31-46 describes the separating people (sheep and goats). Spreading the gospel makes it possible to distinguish the people who search for God and those that reject him. Without Christ, this is not possible.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Romans 3:23,24 - "for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"

Jesus sacrifice opens the way for humans to attain salvation. Only God can judge whether we are worthy.

Acts 17 gives a good account of the early preaching. In Thessalonica, the Jews that berated and charged the believers proved they were unworthy, whereas gentiles (some of them) in Athens were very open to Paul's teachings and eager to learn about a god they had not been taught about. Before the arrival of the Christians to their cities, they were still the same people, but it was their arrival that separated those that were open to God and those that would reject him.

Matthew 25:31-46 describes the separating people (sheep and goats). Spreading the gospel makes it possible to distinguish the people who search for God and those that reject him. Without Christ, this is not possible.
Do you believe that a person like Mahatma Ghandi who was a completely blameless and sincere Hindu yet who utterly and completely rejected Christianity would be found worthy to enter heaven?
 
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The Text: "The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them."

Here are some quotations I have gathered from Credobaptists concerning this verse:
  • So are you saying we inherit Adam's sin even though God says we don't inherit our parents sins?
  • If I cannot inherit my father’s sin, how can I inherit Adam’s sin? I cannot.
  • The idea that human beings are born already guilty of someone else’s sin is not only false doctrine, it does dishonor to the God of the Bible. Ezekiel 18:19-20 says that the son does not inherit the sin of the father and the father does not inherit the sin of the son.
  • I believe it would be unjust to punish you for my sin, or me for Adam’s sin. I am not morally culpable for the actions of others, but for my own, and that is plenty. Ezekiel 18 seems like a strong argument for this view.
  • Ezekiel 18:20 says the son does not bear the guilt of the father but total depravity says all the descendants of Adam inherit the guilt of his sin. Sin is not something which comes by birth but is something one decides to engage in.
*********

Ezekiel 18 is a complex chapter. This chapter deals with the deported second and third generation Israelites who are suffering enslavement in the midst of the Babylonian captivity. The cause of this captivity was idolatry against God Himself.

With the destruction of the Temple and the deportations, a very real crisis emerged. Prior to that event, it was held that the Temple in Jerusalem was God’s exclusive dwelling place on the earth, and that only in the Temple was it possible to commune with God. Furthermore, this communing was only through the Zadokite priesthood. So when the Babylonians destroyed the Temple and exiled the Temple priests and seized the holy relics, there was a very real crisis. With the Temple gone and the priests unable to perform sacrifice there, how could the Jewish people commune with their God and follow his commandments?

We now see a drift into fatalism with the recurrent theme of complaining or murmuring against God by shifting-the-blame to the sins of their fathers instead of the exiles understanding their own sin. For those born in captivity, a smug self-righteousness overcomes them and an accusation will be leveled against God Himself…He is unjust (vs. 25-29). The exiles are blind to their own sin. It is not God who is unjust. God then rails down the condemnation….the exiles themselves are unjust (vs. 29).

The answer and comfort Ezekiel gives those in exile foreshadows the New Testament especially in the person of John the Baptist. God will tabernacle with his people wherever they are at in captivity. Through repentance and the preaching of Ezekiel (and Jeremiah in Judea), God will give them a new heart and spirit to commune with God himself (vs. 31). This is regeneration in the truest sense.

********
Chapter 18 begins with the exiles using an extra biblical proverb is a challenge to God’s fairness. “The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.” In essence, the proverb seeks to place the blame elsewhere for their captivity. The gist of the proverbs seems to be a comparison to a situation in which a child is born deformed, on account of the father eating bad grapes before conceiving the child. Thus, the child is punished with bad teeth because of the father’s bad judgment, or perhaps even his simple mistake. As stated before, Israel seemed to place the blame of exile at the feet of their fathers who had sinned and walked contrary to God. In doing so, they had failed to recognize the sinfulness of their own sin, were guilty of blame-shifting. God then commands that use of the proverb cease.

Ezekiel answers this false proverb and the exile’s own self righteousness by calling for repentance with his three generation illustration. The prophet uses civil transgressions with the judgment and penalties associated of Torah as analogous to moral transgressions. Therefore, the context of the second set of verses is dealing with the legality aspect within the Jewish court system.

  • The third generation: The sinful but repentant grandfather is considered righteous (vs 5-9).
  • The second generation:The sinful wicked unrepentant father (who commits capital offenses) as is worthy of death (vs. 10-13).
  • The first generation: The sinful but repentant adult son is considered righteous(vs. 14-18).

God is not addressing here the issue of sin as related to spiritual death but as to one sinning unto a capital crime that will lead to them being put to physical death, such as by stoning. The unrepentant father is a robber, murderer and has committed adultery which are capital sins in the Torah. This does not have original sin in its cross hairs, rather we may add, the consequences of original sin’s corrupting influence.

In order for the exiles to stop blame-shifting the prophet states in vs. 20 “The son will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the son....” In other words, the Jewish legal system does not allow “guilt sharing” in its punishments, so neither should the exiles believe they are sharing in their forefathers guilt and blaming them for it. The exiles have true moral guilt because they are sinners and repentance is its only cure.

Perhaps Duet 24:16 as a parallel passages adds clarity here. “Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.

Deuteronomy 24 is talking about how things should operate in civil society. It's not talking about God's dealings with man whether though the Law or Gospel; Duet. 24 and Ez. 18 are talking about capital punishment in the context of civil society. And in the context of society, sons ought not be put to death for the sins of their fathers. The right way to preserve justice in civil society is to punish those alone who have committed crimes worthy of punishment. So, this passage isn't dealing with imputation at all, it's dealing with capital punishment as it relates to civil society.

CONCLUSION:

1. Contextually, Ezekiel 18:20 has nothing to do with the fall, original sin or the imputation of guilt concerning Adam’s descendants. It is not a parallel text to Genesis 3. So it is a stretch for credobaptists to interpret it as such even though it is nearly uniformly believed to be about imputation by Credobaptists. This verse is part of a larger rhetorical message of the whole chapter, namely, if you repent, you will be saved – regardless of the sins of your parents or children.

2. Contextually, there is no mention of repentance during the Fall of mankind. Adam endures God’s pronouncements and suffers the curse mediated to him. Adam is comforted with the protoevangelium of Genesis 3:15. On the other hand, the exiles themselves are going to commune with God in a new and different way….through repentance: “Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. (vs. 30-31) Repentance is not a matter of bearing guilt as a burden, neither is it the cultivation of remorse or regret. Instead, is the first step toward transformation — what Ezekiel calls getting a new heart and a new spirit. Repentance is an active, deliberate step in a new direction. It is a step into the future, into life itself.

3. If the context dealt specifically with the imputation of Adam's sin, why would the passage be dealing with actual sin? The passage actually deals with the idea that the unrepentant sin of the father should not be charged to the repentant children. The doctrine of original sin does not deal with repentance at all, but rather the guilt we have in Adam. The passage assumes both guilt and pollution since the subject is a wicked man who needs to repent.

4. Ezekiel 18 does not address the origin of sin or how sin is contracted.

5. There are no innocent individuals in Ez. 18. All are above the Age of Accountability even the son, who is considered an adult as he doesn’t require a pledge for a loan (vs. 16).

6. If one insists that the Ezekiel passage is a universal principle or law that states that no one can justly suffer for the sins of another, then it directly violates the gospel message that Jesus Christ suffered on the cross for the sins of human beings. And Christians are to affirm that Jesus suffered in the place of others. In other words, apart from Christ's imputed righteousness, the repentance in Ezek. 18 by itself is not able to cover our sins.

Apart from Christ's imputed righteousness, our sins-- even a single sin-- would outweigh any good that we did and there could not be forgiveness. The prophet can say that "none of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him" because of Christ’s substitutionary atonement.
Why do you make things so complicated. All these labels credo, paudeo, baptist, mormans, on and on and on. That's the problem with the lukewarm church of today. It's like a gigantic mansion where every denomination has there own room. I am so thankful I got out of all that. The Bible is so easy, but man has made it so complex and dificult to understand. It has a clear message when you get away from all that dogma the denominations throw at you. I even dislike the label Christian. Today, the only way to reconize a Christian is when they tell you they are. I don't use use it. It's embarassing to me and God.

Here is a simple answer. Romans 11:23, for God has imprisoned everyone in disobedeince so He could have mercy on everyrone. We start life in the womb under condemnation, everyone single one us. You will remain under condemnation unless you recieve rescue from our Lord Jesus Christ. That's the simple Gospel. What more do you have to debate over?
 
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Do you believe that a person like Mahatma Ghandi who was a completely blameless and sincere Hindu yet who utterly and completely rejected Christianity would be found worthy to enter heaven?
You answered your own question. How can he be blameless when he rejected Jesus Christ. He is hell bound plain and simple. The righteous, the ones covered by the blood of Jesus are blamess under God's eye and are heaven bound.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Why do you make things so complicated. All these labels credo, paudeo, baptist, mormans, on and on and on. That's the problem with the lukewarm church of today. It's like a gigantic mansion where every denomination has there own room. I am so thankful I got out of all that. The Bible is so easy, but man has made it so complex and dificult to understand. It has a clear message when you get away from all that dogma the denominations throw at you. I even dislike the label Christian. Today, the only way to reconize a Christian is when they tell you they are. I don't use use it. It's embarassing to me and God.

Here is a simple answer. Romans 11:23, for God has imprisoned everyone in disobedeince so He could have mercy on everyrone. We start life in the womb under condemnation, everyone single one us. You will remain under condemnation unless you recieve rescue from our Lord Jesus Christ. That's the simple Gospel. What more do you have to debate over?
This is minimalism.

We are commanded to teach the whole counsel of God.
 
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bbbbbbb

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You answered your own question. How can he be blameless when he rejected Jesus Christ. He is hell bound plain and simple. The righteous, the ones covered by the blood of Jesus are blamess under God's eye and are heaven bound.
Very well and true. What do you make of the innumerable Hindus who are as sincerely righteous according to Hindu standards of righteousness? For example, what do you make of the Buddha who, having lived and died centuries before Jesus Christ was, and remains, a highly revered figure in world history? He was quite incapable of rejecting the God of the Hebrews.
 
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