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Is Evolution A Science?

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herev

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It has now been stated that Evolution is falsely called a science---
here's Webster's (unedited by myslef):
Main Entry: sci·ence
Pronunciation: 'sI-&n(t)s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin scientia, from scient-, sciens having knowledge, from present participle of scire to know; probably akin to Sanskrit chyati he cuts off, Latin scindere to split -- more at [size=-1]SHED[/size]
1 : the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
2 a : a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study ****e science of theology> b : something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge <have it down to a science>
3 a : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : [size=-1]NATURAL SCIENCE[/size]
4 : a system or method reconciling practical ends with scientific laws <culinary science>

from:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=science

So, how is evolution falsely called a science?--just curious and I wouldn't want to debate in an area where we TE's are not welcome. (It's rude, IMO)
 

Gold Dragon

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mhess13 said:
Evolution is not testable or observable. It has to be taken entirely on faith. So if I have to take something on faith, I'll choose God's word everytime!
.
Understanding Evolution : Misconceptions

Misconception: “Evolution is not science because it is not observable or testable.”

Response: Evolution is observable and testable. The misconception here is that science is limited to controlled experiments that are conducted in laboratories by people in white lab coats. Actually, much of science is accomplished by gathering evidence from the real world and inferring how things work. Astronomers cannot hold stars in their hands and geologists cannot go back in time, but in both cases scientists can learn a great deal by using multiple lines of evidence to make valid and useful inferences about their objects of study. The same is true of the study of the evolutionary history of life on Earth, and as a matter of fact, many mechanisms of evolution are studied through direct experimentation as in more familiar sciences.
 
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Gold Dragon

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mhess13 said:
Evolution is not testable or observable. It has to be taken entirely on faith. So if I have to take something on faith, I'll choose God's word everytime!
Another thing to consider is that while science does look only at what is observable, often the data is indirect observation of something that isn't normally observable by us.

Talk Origins - Scientific Proof?

Science Provides Evidence for the Unobservable

The primary function of science is to demonstrate the existence of phenomena that cannot be observed directly. Science is not needed to show us things we can see with our own eyes. Direct observation is not only unnecessary in science; direct observation is in fact usually impossible for things that really matter. For example, the most important discoveries of science can only be inferred via indirect observation, including such things as atoms, electrons, viruses, bacteria, germs, radiowaves, X-rays, ultraviolet light, energy, entropy, enthalpy, solar fusion, genes, protein enzymes, and the DNA double-helix. The round earth was not observed directly by humans until 1961, yet this counterintuitive concept had been considered a scientific fact for over 2000 years. The Copernican hypothesis that the earth orbits the sun has been acknowledged virtually ever since the time of Galileo, though no one has ever observed the process to this day and in spite of the fact that direct observation indicates the very opposite. All of these "invisible" inferences were elucidated using the scientific method. When the term "evidence" is used in this article, it is used strictly in the context of this scientific method.
 
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Vance

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Not to mention that we have actually observed speciation take place, which YEC's used to say was impossible and exactly the type of thing they would need to see in order to accept evolution. Of course, once they actually watched new species developing through the processes of evolution, they just shifted their position and said that yes, the mechanics of evolution do occur, but changed their definition of macro-evolution from the creation of new species to some type of larger development (which remains undefined in order to avoid getting burned again).
 
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owen_rocks

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Vance said:
Not to mention that we have actually observed speciation take place, which YEC's used to say was impossible and exactly the type of thing they would need to see in order to accept evolution. Of course, once they actually watched new species developing through the processes of evolution, they just shifted their position and said that yes, the mechanics of evolution do occur, but changed their definition of macro-evolution from the creation of new species to some type of larger development (which remains undefined in order to avoid getting burned again).
Hi Vance:

What are some examples of what you call "observed speciation" (by speciation I believe you are referring to what some call macro evolution)? Why is this incompatible with the concept of the "biblical kinds" (meaing the speciation that is seen is really all part of a biblical kind)?

regards,
o/r
 
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Vance

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There are long lists of observed instances of the development of new species which have been listed here and are so well-accepted that even groups like AiG have acknowledged that they were wrong on this point. By new species we mean a group which has so dramatically evolved away from a parent or sister group (by isolation combined with evolutionary processes) that they can no longer interbreed with the parent or sister group (this is not the only definition of species, but it is a basic one that covers the important issues). I could track down and post these lists if you like, but really, it is not even a debated issue any more.

As to your question regarding macro-evolution and "kinds" this is difficult to say because Creationists keep changing their definition of these terms. In the past, they used to define macro-evolution as speciation. But, when they saw that speciation occurs, they just changed this definition to a change beyond the "kind" level. But now they won't tell us what the "kind" level is for fear of scientists then discovering that changes at that level do, indeed, occur. So, they leave it vague and just say something akin to "we know it when we see it".

Moreover, there really is no reason to make a micro/macro distinction. Macro-evolution is the same thing as micro-evolution with enough time to make large changes. There really is no reason why a series of micro changes would not add up to a macro change. The latest Creationist gambit is the "no new information" theory, but this has also been shown to be a non-starter.
 
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owen_rocks

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Vance said:
The latest Creationist gambit is the "no new information" theory, but this has also been shown to be a non-starter.
Ok, I heard Ken Ham speak a few months ago and he mentioned this a number of times. He also had a short video showing a famous Evolutionist..(Hawking I think) being asked if he could give an example of new information (or genes or something) being added to the genome. Hawking kinda looks around with a puzzled look....and everybody in the audience laughs.

Dr. Sarfati in his Refuting Evolution (1,2) and Refuting Compromise make the same case regarding "no new information".

And quite frankly this would be my response to someone if they asked me today about it.

So..why is this a "non-starter"?

regards,
o/r
 
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Gold Dragon

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owen_rocks said:
What are some examples of what you call "observed speciation" (by speciation I believe you are referring to what some call macro evolution)?
As Vance stated, the distinction between macro and micro evolution isn't something that is used by scientists. What is the dividing line? From an evolutionary perspective, macroevolution is simply a lot of microevolution. So if you have microevolution, given enough time, you have macroevolution.

Here is a long article about observed instances of speciation. I just listed some headings

Talk Origins - Observed Instances of Speciation

...

5.1 Speciations Involving Polyploidy, Hybridization or Hybridization Followed by Polyploidization.
5.1.1 Plants
5.1.1.1 Evening Primrose (Oenothera gigas)
5.2 Speciations in Plant Species not Involving Hybridization or Polyploidy
5.2.1 Stephanomeira malheurensis
5.3 The Fruit Fly Literature
5.3.1 Drosophila paulistorum
5.4 Housefly Speciation Experiments
5.4.1 A Test of the Founder-flush Hypothesis Using Houseflies
5.5 Speciation Through Host Race Differentiation
5.5.1 Apple Maggot Fly (Rhagoletis pomonella)
5.6 Flour Beetles (Tribolium castaneum)
5.7 Speciation in a Lab Rat Worm, Nereis acuminata
5.8 Speciation Through Cytoplasmic Incompatability Resulting from the Presence of a Parasite or Symbiont

...
 
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Vance

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This "new information" bit has been discussed in great detail in numerous threads in the Creation and evolution forum, and will be again, I am sure. You might track down the thread I started called "Information on Imformation Theory".

Gluadys has also provided some detailed information on this concept, so she may throw her two cents in as well. But, basically, the problem is that a Creationist "scientist" took two different theories regarding "genetic information" by two different scientists discussing different subjects and combined them to create this idea that evolutionary changes can not create "new" genetic information and, thus, can not result in macro changes. This is a very complicated area (which makes it convenient for Creationists since it makes for a good sound-bite argument and the refutation requires a detailed discussion with the resulting boredom and confusion). But basically, we have seen changes in the genetic bits in response to evolutionary pressures (as in the nylon eating bug) and we have seen that even very "simple" creatures can have more total genetic information than us humans. So the amount of genetic information is not the issue, it is HOW the genetic information is used. Kind of like taking the alphabet and a child using it to make one syllable words while an adult can use that same set of material to write the Encyclopaedia Brittanica. This use of the material is what causes the morphological make up of a species, even it is a tiny worm with more genetic material than a human.
 
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Vance

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Oh, it is a theory, it is not JUST a theory. What is wrong is to say that it is not yet "proven" or not a "fact", since these are not terms that apply to theories.

Evolution is both a fact and a theory. The theory of evolution is the best explanation (and a very solid explanation) of the facts of evolutionary development.
 
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Gold Dragon

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TwinCrier said:
OK, so we can't say evolution is a theory, we can't say it's science, so what would you perfer we call it?
TEs rightly describe evolution as a scientific theory that describes the observed facts of genetic drift and natural selection.

It is YECs that incorrectly say that evolution is neither science, theory or fact because of a poor understanding of those terms.
 
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Vance

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TwinCrier said:
Evolution is in no way a fact.
Evolution is both a Fact and a Theory

Those who have studied evolution from sources other than Creationist sites are constantly annoyed by the misunderstanding of basic scientific concepts tossed out by YECs. Even when AiG tells people that they should no longer say the "Evolution is just a theory, it hasn't been proven", we still hear it all the time. So, I decided to post a good description of why evolution is both a fact and a theory. Remember folks, you don't prove theories. Theories are not the types of things that are proven. Here it goes:

"When non-biologists talk about biological evolution they often confuse two different aspects of the definition. On the one hand there is the question of whether or not modern organisms have evolved from older ancestral organisms or whether modern species are continuing to change over time. On the other hand there are questions about the mechanism of the observed changes... how did evolution occur? Biologists consider the existence of biological evolution to be a fact. It can be demonstrated today and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming. However, biologists readily admit that they are less certain of the exact mechanism of evolution; there are several theories of the mechanism of evolution. Stephen J. Gould has put this as well as anyone else:
In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science--that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was." Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.

- Stephen J. Gould, " Evolution as Fact and Theory"; Discover, May 1981

Gould is stating the prevailing view of the scientific community. In other words, the experts on evolution consider it to be a fact. This is not an idea that originated with Gould as the following quotations indicate:
Let me try to make crystal clear what is established beyond reasonable doubt, and what needs further study, about evolution. Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry. By contrast, the mechanisms that bring evolution about certainly need study and clarification. There are no alternatives to evolution as history that can withstand critical examination. Yet we are constantly learning new and important facts about evolutionary mechanisms. - Theodosius Dobzhansky "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution", American Biology Teacher vol. 35 (March 1973) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, J. Peter Zetterberg ed., ORYX Press, Phoenix AZ 1983

Also:
It is time for students of the evolutionary process, especially those who have been misquoted and used by the creationists, to state clearly that evolution is a fact, not theory, and that what is at issue within biology are questions of details of the process and the relative importance of different mechanisms of evolution. It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun. The controversies about evolution lie in the realm of the relative importance of various forces in molding evolution.

- R. C. Lewontin "Evolution/Creation Debate: A Time for Truth" Bioscience 31, 559 (1981) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, op cit.

This concept is also explained in introductory biology books that are used in colleges and universities (and in some of the better high schools). For example, in some of the best such textbooks we find:
Today, nearly all biologists acknowledge that evolution is a fact. The term theory is no longer appropriate except when referring to the various models that attempt to explain how life evolves... it is important to understand that the current questions about how life evolves in no way implies any disagreement over the fact of evolution. - Neil A. Campbell, Biology 2nd ed., 1990, Benjamin/Cummings, p. 434

Also:
Since Darwin's time, massive additional evidence has accumulated supporting the fact of evolution--that all living organisms present on earth today have arisen from earlier forms in the course of earth's long history. Indeed, all of modern biology is an affirmation of this relatedness of the many species of living things and of their gradual divergence from one another over the course of time. Since the publication of The Origin of Species, the important question, scientifically speaking, about evolution has not been whether it has taken place. That is no longer an issue among the vast majority of modern biologists. Today, the central and still fascinating questions for biologists concern the mechanisms by which evolution occurs. - Helena Curtis and N. Sue Barnes, Biology 5th ed. 1989, Worth Publishers, p. 972

One of the best introductory books on evolution (as opposed to introductory biology) is that by Douglas J. Futuyma, and he makes the following comment:
A few words need to be said about the "theory of evolution," which most people take to mean the proposition that organisms have evolved from common ancestors. In everyday speech, "theory" often means a hypothesis or even a mere speculation. But in science, "theory" means "a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed." as the Oxford English Dictionary defines it. The theory of evolution is a body of interconnected statements about natural selection and the other processes that are thought to cause evolution, just as the atomic theory of chemistry and the Newtonian theory of mechanics are bodies of statements that describe causes of chemical and physical phenomena. In contrast, the statement that organisms have descended with modifications from common ancestors--the historical reality of evolution--is not a theory. It is a fact, as fully as the fact of the earth's revolution about the sun. Like the heliocentric solar system, evolution began as a hypothesis, and achieved "facthood" as the evidence in its favor became so strong that no knowledgeable and unbiased person could deny its reality. No biologist today would think of submitting a paper entitled "New evidence for evolution;" it simply has not been an issue for a century. - Douglas J. Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology, 2nd ed., 1986, Sinauer Associates, p. 15

We also need to distinguish between facts that are easy to demonstrate and those that are more circumstantial. Examples of evolution that are readily apparent include the fact that modern populations are evolving and the fact that two closely related species share a common ancestor. The evidence that Homo sapiens and chimpanzees share a recent common ancestor falls into this category. There is so much evidence in support of this aspect of primate evolution that it qualifies as a fact by any common definition of the word "fact."

[here is the part Mark Kennedy will like]
In other cases the available evidence is less strong. For example, the relationships of some of the major phyla are still being worked out. Also, the statement that all organisms have descended from a single common ancestor is strongly supported by the available evidence, and there is no opposing evidence. However, it is not yet appropriate to call this a "fact" since there are reasonable alternatives.
Finally, there is an epistemological argument against evolution as fact. Some readers of these newsgroups point out that nothing in science can ever be "proven" and this includes evolution. According to this argument, the probability that evolution is the correct explanation of life as we know it may approach 99.9999...9% but it will never be 100%. Thus evolution cannot be a fact. This kind of argument might be appropriate in a philosophy class (it is essentially correct) but it won't do in the real world. A "fact," as Stephen J. Gould pointed out (see above), means something that is so highly probable that it would be silly not to accept it. This point has also been made by others who contest the nit-picking epistemologists."
 
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PaladinValer

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Evolution is tesible and it is reproducable.

How? One needs to learn the facts of evolution first; it happens due to change in the environment.

So, put a species in a controlled environment and change it. Since it is controlled, it can be changed rapidly. This has been down to create new species of fruitflies with an entirely new species label, even though they retain the same "genus" label.
 
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gluadys

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PaladinValer said:
Evolution is tesible and it is reproducable.

How? One needs to learn the facts of evolution first; it happens due to change in the environment.

So, put a species in a controlled environment and change it. Since it is controlled, it can be changed rapidly. This has been down to create new species of fruitflies with an entirely new species label, even though they retain the same "genus" label.

In this experiment the whole physiology of the digestive system was changed to accommodate a meat or bread rather than a fruit diet, and the flies can no longer even use fruit.

Analysis of genetic change showed the new species had a 3% coding difference from parental ancestors.

We are separated from our nearest cousins by only a 2% coding difference.
 
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Micaiah

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Interesting. Can you post references? Also advise what changes occured to the DNA, and how this occured. Was it the result of mutation, or was this an in built genetic response to environmental factors. If the latter, then this in not evolution, since evolution assumes random change, and natural selection.
 
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