Is evolution a fact or theory?

[Job 33:6]

Hm yes, because the quotations are not around "huge", that does imply that it was your word. While the "strong evidence" part is Kurt wise.

 

[dcalling]

Note the source I quoted are from
https://phys.org/news/2018-05-gene-survey-reveals-facets-evolution.html, not atheist nor creationist site. And the findings are very clear, see below.
And no matter how you want to justfify that there is no gaps in fossils, do you really believe fossil records are complete?

Two very interesting observations by scientists are:
1. "In analysing the barcodes across 100,000 species, the researchers found a telltale sign showing that almost all the animals emerged about the same time as humans."
2. "And yet—another unexpected finding from the study—species have very clear genetic boundaries, and there's nothing much in between."

No, that's wrong. From a creationist source, a few cases of series of in-between species:
Darwin’s second expectation - of stratomorphic intermediate species - include such species as Baragwanathia27 (between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia28 (between echinoderms and chordates), Purgatorius29 (between the tree shrews and the primates), and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids). Darwin’s third expectation - of higher-taxon stratomorphic intermediates - has been confirmed by such examples as the mammal-like reptile groups31 between the reptiles and the mammals, and the phenacdontids32 between the horses and their presumed ancestors. Darwin’s fourth expectation - of stratomorphic series - has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39 Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT said that traditional creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds.
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j09_2/j09_2_216-222.pdf

So your own people disagree with you.

The large number of disputed species in various taxa (as Darwin documented in his book) make it clear that there are no hard distinctions between varieties and species.

 

[The Barbarian]

And no matter how you want to justfify that there is no gaps in fossils

Unless we had the fossil of every organism that ever lived, there would be gaps. The point is that we now have transitionals for almost every major group. If creationism were true, there wouldn't be any.

do you really believe fossil records are complete?

Let's do a little test to see how complete it is (or isn't):
Name me any two major groups, said to be evolutionarily connected, and I'll see if I can find a transitional.

You're on. What will it be?

 

[Hiscosmicgoldfish3]

Is there are proof of either?

evolution is rubbish, but the creator made creation resemble evolution, for some obscure reason.

 

[The Barbarian]

evolution is rubbish,

It's just the way He does things.

but the creator made creation resemble evolution, for some obscure reason.

Sorry, not credible. God is truth.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian asks again:
Let's do a little test to see how complete it is (or isn't):
Name me any two major groups, said to be evolutionarily connected, and I'll see if I can find a transitional.

You're on. What will it be?

If dcalling can't think of one, is there any creationist who can? There are still a few we don't have, so you could get lucky. Anyone?

 

[Bible Research Tools]

"In the last ten years, more than 1,500 large burrows have been discovered in southern and southeastern Brazil, dug in rocks that include weathered granitic and basaltic rocks, sandstones, and other consolidated sediments. Their presence in geological units of Plio-Pleistocene age suggests that large extinct mammals produced these structures. The internal walls exhibit scratches and grooves left by the animals that inhabited these structures. The burrows are straight or slightly sinuous tunnels that measure up to tens of meters in length. One smaller type measures up to 1.5 meter in diameter, and the larger type can reach 2 meters in height and 4 meters in width, suggesting that such structures have been produced by at least two kinds of organisms. This contribution proposes a classification for these ichnofossils under the generic designation Megaichnus igen. nov., consisting of two ichnospecies identified so far: M. major and M. minor ispp. nov. Although the exact identity of the producers of the burrows is yet unknown, the dimensions and morphology point to ground sloths and giant armadillos."

Wait wait, ground sloths and giant armadillos? But they were killed in the flood. So, how....what...if they were killed in the flood, how were they digging giant tunnels to live in? How much time did they have to do this? If thousands of feet of flood sediment were burying them alive?

Your blizzard of posts -- a common debating trick -- are unhelpful. If you want to carry on a conversation, I will oblige. Otherwise, I will move to the end of your blizzard, and comment.

I checked Dr. Kurt Wise's research and lectures. He stated (paraphrasing), "there are claims of bioturbation in the geological column, but when they are examined the lamination is still there." As aforementioned, he also stated that there are lots of fossils of the burrowers, but only limited loss of lamination.

Now, answer this question: if the geological column was formed over millions of years, why is there any lamination -- any at all, except in highly saline lakes like the Dead Sea? Why is there world-wide lamination?

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

No, I'm not, and I'm done chasing after yet another of your creationist arguments. You've had no defense when I've pointed out previous errors. All you've done is mock me and move on to another one.

That was the final in series of articles by Nathaniel Jeanson in support of Jeffrey Tomkins against a vicious attack by an arrogant little charlatan named Dennis Venema. I thought you might be curious, in the interest of "science", of course.

For the rest of you, these are the links, in order:

Finding Adam in the Genome: A Response to Adam and the Genome

Creationists Are Liars? Finding Adam in the Genome with BioLogos

Finding Adam in the Genome: A Response to Chapter 1 of Adam and the Genome

Finding Adam in the Genome: A Response to Chapter 1 of Adam and the Genome

Finding Adam in the Genome: A Response to Chapter 1 of Adam and the Genome

Finding Adam in the Genome: A Response to Chapter 2 of Adam and the Genome

Do Humans Have Genes for Laying Eggs?

Finding Adam in the Genome: Does BioLogos Have Even More Egg on Its Face?

Finding Adam in the Genome: A BioLogos cover-up?​

The 3 identical captions are separate articles.

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

Kurt wise broke down the flood into distributions over time, he made it out to be thousands of feet separated into 5 episodes, apparently.

Credit for the "Sloss stratagraphic sequences" should be attributed to geologist Lawrence L. Sloss. The GSA (Geological Society of America) gives an annual award in his honor:

Geological Society of America - 2017 Laurence L. Sloss Award - Isabel Montañez​

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

According to Kurt Wise, there are 5 stratigraphic sections that are the product of 5 mega waves that passed over north america. One wave that formed the cambrian, one the ordovician, one in the later silurian to devonian, one in the carboniferous and one that sort of takes up most of the mesozoic, and then like maybe half of one in the cesozoic.

So if this is the case... then one wave of the mesozoic would have deposited >7000 feet of sediment (actually it would be a greater amount because there are currently 7000 feet of dense compacted mesozoic rock at the grand canyon) in a single wave.

Now, think about that for a second. How exactly is it that...dinosaurs, such as...those of the jurassic or cretaceous...how did they somehow manage to...make nests or even walk or do anything...if 7000 feet were deposited by a single giant wave? We have found predators and prey together with predator teeth marks in their respective prey, in the mesozoic. There are unique independent ecosystems throughout the mesozoic. And this guy is suggesting that it all just got deposited, 7000+ feet of it, all by a giant...just one giant wave.

It really does sound ridiculous when you think about it.

The concept of uniformitarianism is certainly ridiculous.

Those are not waves, but surges. Wise makes is crystal clear that the fossil record represents gradual marine to marine/terrestrial covering.

See this link for more information on megasequences:

The Sedimentary Record Demonstrates Minimal Flooding of the Continents During Sauk Deposition​

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

@The Barbarian @KomatiiteBIF

Just found this very interesting article
https://phys.org/news/2018-05-gene-survey-reveals-facets-evolution.html

Two very interesting observations by scientists are:
1. "In analysing the barcodes across 100,000 species, the researchers found a telltale sign showing that almost all the animals emerged about the same time as humans."
2. "And yet—another unexpected finding from the study—species have very clear genetic boundaries, and there's nothing much in between."

The more actual scientific findings we have, the more clear the picture is

I am still digesting it, but good find.

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

https://phys.org/news/2018-05-gene-survey-reveals-facets-evolution.html
The article already addressed your first concern, "But the last true mass extinction event was 65.5 million years ago when a likely asteroid strike wiped out land-bound dinosaurs and half of all species on Earth"
The climate change 100ky ago is not as truely a bottom neck as you wanted, as all the evidences suggested.

And, as much as you want to say there are enough in-between species, there are not. All fossils jump, and you can't fill them, no matter how much you want to stretch it.

That is all based on unprovable speculation.

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

So I go ahead and take information straight from Kurt wise, all of a sudden it somehow becomes a strawman.

Would anyone like to explain Kurt wises explanation to me then? I'd love to hear others explain what he meant when he said a giant wave created Mesozoic mega sequences.

Do you have a link; and, if a video, a link and a time marker?

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

Ok, well you clearly can't respond adequately if you think...for example, that those decapods burrows, or the pliocene burrows, have not obstructed subsurface lamination.

These burrows among others sourced, have obstructed subsurface lamination. You seem to be in denial of this for some reason.

I see lamination everywhere the column is exposed. Why can you not see it?

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

So, to conclude from my above post, bioturbation that has resulted in the destruction of subsurface lamination is common.

Now, there is an alternative question of...how deep or how wide or large of an area does bioturbation occur?

And the above sources, images, quotes etc. show us that destruction of laminated surfaces ranges from a few centimeters, to several feet, and in a few cases, even tens of feet both in depth and lateral distance.

@Bible Research Tools

So, you cannot rightfully deny that bioturbation and the destruction of subsurface sediments, occurs. And regarding the depths and complexity of bioturbation, you cannot deny that the fossil record contains burrows, deep (feet in depth) large (feet in width), long (feet in length), and complex networks that involve multiple levels and tunnels, laterally and vertically position around one another...

What more could you possibly ask for?

Kurt Wise makes this statement at the 46m31s mark:

"What you find in these flood sediments – and there's thousands of feet of flood sediments -- is they are almost all laminated. It's hard to find a bioturbated sediment. So what's going on here? Does that mean there are no burrowers, or that there's no time?

Well in these same sediments we find fossils of the burrowers. We find lots of fossils of the burrowers. They are there -- at least they died there. That suggests it isn't because there are no burrowers. It must be then that there's just not enough time for them to bioturbate the sediment.

So we have rapid deposition of these sediments, and into layers, and we just are doing it so fast that the little critters might be able to make individual little burrows -- and we do see those; but they can't spend enough time there to bioturbate the sediment before they get buried too deep and they asphyxiate under those circumstances."

[Kurt P. Wise, "90 Minutes of Evidence for the Global Flood" Is Genesis History?, 2017, time mark: &t=46m31s]

Dan
​

 

[Bible Research Tools]

evolution is rubbish, but the creator made creation resemble evolution, for some obscure reason.

It was man who made evolution resemble creation, not God.

Dan

 

[Job 33:6]

Your blizzard of posts -- a common debating trick -- are unhelpful. If you want to carry on a conversation, I will oblige. Otherwise, I will move to the end of your blizzard, and comment.

I checked Dr. Kurt Wise's research and lectures. He stated (paraphrasing), "there are claims of bioturbation in the geological column, but when they are examined the lamination is still there." As aforementioned, he also stated that there are lots of fossils of the burrowers, but only limited loss of lamination.

Now, answer this question: if the geological column was formed over millions of years, why is there any lamination -- any at all, except in highly saline lakes like the Dead Sea? Why is there world-wide lamination?

Dan

You can't have lamination if the burrows have resulted in bioturbation and the destruction of said lamination.

If you look at some of the information I've posted, you will see both discussion figures and images of bedding that lacks lamination and discussion of the destruction of lamination throughout the geologic column as a result of bioturbation. In some cases the bioturbation is extensive in vertical and lateral distance.

Until you can admit this reality, the conversation cannot progress. So please do go back and read my posts. And this isn't a debate, nor am I using tactics. Unfortunately reading research is a necessity when learning. So you should try it.

 

[Job 33:6]

I see lamination everywhere the column is exposed. Why can you not see it?

Dan

I can see lamination as well. How about we recognize the existance of bioturbation and destruction of lamination in the geologic record, then once we cover that topic, we can discuss why there are also areas that are laminated.


Your original comment suggested that bioturbation perhaps shouldn't exist, or if it did, it was abruptly stopped. So first we need to establish the fact that there are complex burrow networks and large tunnels, some of which do obstruct subsurface lamination and were not abruptly stopped.

If a complex, multi level system of burrows has been formed in the Jurassic, then we know that indeed organisms had plenty of time to create these complex underground systems.

Also if large mammals dug tunnels that we're feet in diameter and perhaps tens of feet long (to the extent that you can climb inside) we also know that these mammals must have had plenty of time to dig these tunnels.

Do you admit to this reality?

None of the above instances of bioturbation are structures that could be formed in a single day or week or perhaps even months of time. Let alone could an animal form them in perhaps the 30 seconds they might have if they were caught in a wave that was sweeping across all of north america.

 

[Job 33:6]

Also, just to clarify on this comment

"but when they are examined the lamination is still there."

If you read some of the research that I have posted, you will see discussion of localities in which lamination is no longer present.

And in fact, if you think about it, lamination cannot exist where a burrow has been formed. And not only do we have plenty of research and discussion on areas in which lamination has been obstructed by bioturbation, but we also have very large and complex burrow systems in the geologic record.

Kurt Wise was suggesting that during the flood, animals would not have the time to bioturbate subsurface sediments. However, anyone with eyes can see that life had plenty of time to burrow and to make homes and in fact, it is commonplace that some of these complex subsurface features are right splat in the middle of where Kurt Wise seems to believe a single wave carried this sediment across all of north america.

Imagine...a family of organisms is carried across all of north america in a giant wave, and deposited. Somehow the family is all alive...and together. In the middle of this giant section of sediment that was just deposited by a wave that traveled across the continent. And somehow they are alive and ok and able to...make a network of tunnels? And they couldnt have been buried, and dug their way up from the precambrian all the way up to the jurassic or anywhere above, because if they did, their burrows would be present throughout the whole column, and as kurt wise suggests, if a flood occurred, they would die before they could. So life must have literally been in the middle of this wave, riding across all of north america. Imagine, or try to imagine, a family of milipedes being carried across north america, holding onto one another to keep their community together so that they could build a complex tunneling network wherever they land.

And, it doesnt take a genius to understand the fact that this is ridiculous.

To many, Kurt Wise may sound like he knows what he is talking about. But to the other 99% of geologists, including myself, few would actually take such concepts seriously.

But Kurt wise says right up front, that even if evidence was against his beliefs, he would just denounce the evidence in favor of his beliefs. So its no surprise that...his ideas do not necessarily make sense in light of reality. They dont have to because they are faith based ideas. He isnt trying to publish them, theyre just thoughts that he has that remain in his mind. They dont actually mesh with reality.

 

[Kaon]

Is there are proof of either?

A fact is indisputable, so it is not a fact.

However, it offers a scientific theory for the origin of life, and its perpetuity - especially for people who do not subscribe to the idea of a deity, or purposed/intelligent design.